Menu

LEX File Exchange
EA Support Files
SC4 Wikipedia
Network Addon Mod
Dependencies
Chat

Author Topic: Bus Lanes Concept  (Read 19985 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Shadow Assassin

  • NAM Team
  • Forums Guru
  • *
  • Posts: 3232
  • Total likes: 12
  • Reputation: 25
  • Needs more cowbell.
  • CL: The Grid Reaper
Re: Bus Lanes Concept
« Reply #20 on: September 30, 2007, 02:58:25 AM »
I had an idea.

Quote
Unforunately the game can't tell the difference between Buses and other road vehicles, the only way to do it would be to have a TE lot, which blocks everything except buses, at both ends of the Bus Lanes.

True, but we can fool the game into thinking there is a difference. The key is using dual-network pieces (say, monorail and road). A specific occupant group would need to be tied to the paths on that piece, as to ensure that monorails don't use the bus lane and vice versa. It's possible, but each puzzle piece would need to be made in such a way that any stations on that particular network spawn that occupant group and only that occupant group. I know it is possible to add new occupant groups, so this is indeed possible.

Plopping an ordinary monorail station, on the other hand... would allow monorails to use the bus network, unless the transit enabling of these stations were changed so that they only use two of the four I/O directions available (eg. east and west, north and south), AND block that bus occupant group. Transit-enabling in SC4Tool has all four in/out directions enabled by default, which causes that 'jumping' effect that you see on large lots, due to the game simulator exploiting that property. The I/O property is not affected by how the lot is transit-enabled, it simply enables occupant groups that are allowed on the lot. That's how the HOV lot worked, it blocked all groups except for pedestrian and buses.

It should be possible to block the monorail occupant group (the train) and allow a special bus occupant group. Think about how the SFBT, with their stations, experimented with this idea, thereby allowing specific GLR models to appear for their corresponding stations. For example, a Red Line Station would spawn Red Line trams, but a Blue Line Station would spawn Blue Line trams. These stations could block other trams from using them: a Red Line Station would only allow Red Line trams to stop there, the Blue Line trams were blocked.

So, it is indeed possible, but the key is the dual-networking pieces.
New Horizons Productions
Berethor ♦ beskhu3epnm ♦ blade2k5 ♦ dedgren ♦ dmscopio ♦ Ennedi
emilin ♦ Heblem ♦ jplumbley ♦ moganite ♦ M4346 ♦ papab2000
Shadow Assassin ♦ Tarkus ♦ wouanagaine
See my uploads on the LEX!

Offline Tarkus

  • Administrator
  • Forums Legend
  • *
  • Posts: 11408
  • Total likes: 4652
  • Reputation: 73
  • NAM Team Tankadillo
    • NAM HQ
  • CL: Dr. PuzzlePiece
Re: Bus Lanes Concept
« Reply #21 on: September 30, 2007, 03:09:14 AM »
Now that is an amazingly brilliant thought, SA. :thumbsup:  In theory, that should work very well, and it would get rid of those pesky TE-Lots.  I like fooling the game. :P 

-Alex (Tarkus)

Offline Andreas

  • Administrator
  • Forums Legend
  • *
  • Posts: 4770
  • Total likes: 978
  • Reputation: 33
    • SimCityPlaza
  • CL: ()bobby() Transit Controller
Re: Bus Lanes Concept
« Reply #22 on: September 30, 2007, 04:57:03 AM »
It should be possible to block the monorail occupant group (the train) and allow a special bus occupant group. Think about how the SFBT, with their stations, experimented with this idea, thereby allowing specific GLR models to appear for their corresponding stations. For example, a Red Line Station would spawn Red Line trams, but a Blue Line Station would spawn Blue Line trams. These stations could block other trams from using them: a Red Line Station would only allow Red Line trams to stop there, the Blue Line trams were blocked.

This is a nice theory indeed, however I'm not sure if we can make a station blocking automata. The BSC SFBT GLR Tram Mod is indeed set up in a way that the stations spawn specific automata (much like the schools spawn school buses), but the automata that is created will use all suitable network tiles - this means if you plop a red and a blue GLR station on one GLR line, both red and blue trams will appear.
Andreas

Offline Jonathan

  • NAM Team
  • Forums Guru
  • *
  • Posts: 2609
  • Total likes: 5
  • Reputation: 25
  • CL: Einstein, Jr. &scl()
Re: Bus Lanes Concept
« Reply #23 on: September 30, 2007, 05:09:35 AM »
SA: you're saying we can add new automata?
It sounds brilliant but like Tarkus said it's theory and theory doesn't all ways work well in SC4.  ;)

Offline Shadow Assassin

  • NAM Team
  • Forums Guru
  • *
  • Posts: 3232
  • Total likes: 12
  • Reputation: 25
  • Needs more cowbell.
  • CL: The Grid Reaper
Re: Bus Lanes Concept
« Reply #24 on: September 30, 2007, 05:13:02 AM »
Yeah, basically, adding new automata. It's been done before. I know it is possible, since we already have some Dual Network pieces (notably the Avenue/GLR pieces).
New Horizons Productions
Berethor ♦ beskhu3epnm ♦ blade2k5 ♦ dedgren ♦ dmscopio ♦ Ennedi
emilin ♦ Heblem ♦ jplumbley ♦ moganite ♦ M4346 ♦ papab2000
Shadow Assassin ♦ Tarkus ♦ wouanagaine
See my uploads on the LEX!

Offline Andreas

  • Administrator
  • Forums Legend
  • *
  • Posts: 4770
  • Total likes: 978
  • Reputation: 33
    • SimCityPlaza
  • CL: ()bobby() Transit Controller
Re: Bus Lanes Concept
« Reply #25 on: September 30, 2007, 05:16:42 AM »
Yes, you can add new automata, however only "single piece" automata - not entire trains with cars, unfortunately. Furthermore, the automata that is added by the usage of occupants and automata generator scripts doesn't reflect the actual usage of a station etc., but is just randomly spawned by the lot.
Andreas

Offline Tarkus

  • Administrator
  • Forums Legend
  • *
  • Posts: 11408
  • Total likes: 4652
  • Reputation: 73
  • NAM Team Tankadillo
    • NAM HQ
  • CL: Dr. PuzzlePiece
Re: Bus Lanes Concept
« Reply #26 on: September 30, 2007, 05:17:59 AM »
Well, if it's set up so that the Monorail network (or whatever network gets used) can never access the spots where the bus lanes are, the two automata types will essentially be kept separate.  Just as long as the Monorail automata can be kept off the bus lanes.

-Alex (Tarkus)

Offline Shadow Assassin

  • NAM Team
  • Forums Guru
  • *
  • Posts: 3232
  • Total likes: 12
  • Reputation: 25
  • Needs more cowbell.
  • CL: The Grid Reaper
Re: Bus Lanes Concept
« Reply #27 on: September 30, 2007, 05:20:53 AM »
Quote
Yes, you can add new automata, however only "single piece" automata - not entire trains with cars, unfortunately.

Isn't that what a bus basically is - single piece automata? :P
New Horizons Productions
Berethor ♦ beskhu3epnm ♦ blade2k5 ♦ dedgren ♦ dmscopio ♦ Ennedi
emilin ♦ Heblem ♦ jplumbley ♦ moganite ♦ M4346 ♦ papab2000
Shadow Assassin ♦ Tarkus ♦ wouanagaine
See my uploads on the LEX!

Offline Jonathan

  • NAM Team
  • Forums Guru
  • *
  • Posts: 2609
  • Total likes: 5
  • Reputation: 25
  • CL: Einstein, Jr. &scl()
Re: Bus Lanes Concept
« Reply #28 on: September 30, 2007, 05:24:44 AM »
So why doesn't Trains(normal rail) use GLR? Seeing as the GLR has to be pathed for UDI or Trams use Rail?
And is adding automata soemthing to do with Ingred.ini?

Offline Andreas

  • Administrator
  • Forums Legend
  • *
  • Posts: 4770
  • Total likes: 978
  • Reputation: 33
    • SimCityPlaza
  • CL: ()bobby() Transit Controller
Re: Bus Lanes Concept
« Reply #29 on: September 30, 2007, 05:40:24 AM »
Isn't that what a bus basically is - single piece automata? :P

Yes. But I didn't want to raise hopes for new HSRP trains, for instance. ;)
Andreas

Offline Shadow Assassin

  • NAM Team
  • Forums Guru
  • *
  • Posts: 3232
  • Total likes: 12
  • Reputation: 25
  • Needs more cowbell.
  • CL: The Grid Reaper
Re: Bus Lanes Concept
« Reply #30 on: September 30, 2007, 05:53:22 AM »
I see.

Warrior: normal rail doesn't use GLR because they are on two very different networks.
New Horizons Productions
Berethor ♦ beskhu3epnm ♦ blade2k5 ♦ dedgren ♦ dmscopio ♦ Ennedi
emilin ♦ Heblem ♦ jplumbley ♦ moganite ♦ M4346 ♦ papab2000
Shadow Assassin ♦ Tarkus ♦ wouanagaine
See my uploads on the LEX!

Offline JoeST

  • Forums Guru
  • *
  • Posts: 2648
  • Total likes: 15
  • Reputation: 10
  • fbstj
  • CL: Not your average...
Re: Bus Lanes Concept
« Reply #31 on: September 30, 2007, 05:54:58 AM »
Is it not because GLR is bassed on Elevated Rail? so they would share automata???
Copperminds and Cuddleswarms

Offline Jonathan

  • NAM Team
  • Forums Guru
  • *
  • Posts: 2609
  • Total likes: 5
  • Reputation: 25
  • CL: Einstein, Jr. &scl()
Re: Bus Lanes Concept
« Reply #32 on: September 30, 2007, 05:55:54 AM »
Andreas : Wow your good, that's twice you've read my mind ;D
I would love to ask why only single piece automata can be added but:
I can see this going off-topic shortly...

HALFEDIT: I wouldn't exactly say monorail and road/buses are the same?

Offline figui

Re: Bus Lanes Concept
« Reply #33 on: September 30, 2007, 01:36:15 PM »
this has become much interesting!
first forums inhabitant from Uruguay..   first forums citizen from Uruguay..  first forums councilman from Uruguay..   first forums mayor from Uruguay..  first forums governor from Uruguay..
...i'm still the only one from Uruguay!

________

Offline jplumbley

  • NHP Team
  • Forums Parliamentarian
  • *
  • Posts: 1438
  • Total likes: 12
  • Reputation: 43
  • "RULer 10000002"
  • CL: Plum Fierce
Re: Bus Lanes Concept
« Reply #34 on: September 30, 2007, 01:58:31 PM »
I had an idea.

True, but we can fool the game into thinking there is a difference. The key is using dual-network pieces (say, monorail and road). A specific occupant group would need to be tied to the paths on that piece, as to ensure that monorails don't use the bus lane and vice versa. It's possible, but each puzzle piece would need to be made in such a way that any stations on that particular network spawn that occupant group and only that occupant group. I know it is possible to add new occupant groups, so this is indeed possible.

Plopping an ordinary monorail station, on the other hand... would allow monorails to use the bus network, unless the transit enabling of these stations were changed so that they only use two of the four I/O directions available (eg. east and west, north and south), AND block that bus occupant group. Transit-enabling in SC4Tool has all four in/out directions enabled by default, which causes that 'jumping' effect that you see on large lots, due to the game simulator exploiting that property. The I/O property is not affected by how the lot is transit-enabled, it simply enables occupant groups that are allowed on the lot. That's how the HOV lot worked, it blocked all groups except for pedestrian and buses.

It should be possible to block the monorail occupant group (the train) and allow a special bus occupant group. Think about how the SFBT, with their stations, experimented with this idea, thereby allowing specific GLR models to appear for their corresponding stations. For example, a Red Line Station would spawn Red Line trams, but a Blue Line Station would spawn Blue Line trams. These stations could block other trams from using them: a Red Line Station would only allow Red Line trams to stop there, the Blue Line trams were blocked.

So, it is indeed possible, but the key is the dual-networking pieces.

Yes SA, your theory should be doable using TE Lots and Puzzle Pieces, but then we are back to a old GLR situation in which we will have to deal with the CTD issue with Puzzle Pieces (Network Pieces) and the TE Lots (Stations).  I was looking at this from a draggable point of view because personally, I would like to stay away from the Puzzle Piece/TE Lot solution.  As I dont want to deal with the CTD complaints that we cannot do anything about.
"You learn something new everyday."

http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/169/nhpjplumbleykv3.gif
Bringing the new horizons closer to reality.

Berethor ♦ beskhu3epnm ♦ blade2k5 ♦ dmscopio jplumbley ♦ moganite ♦ M4346 ♦ Dedgren ♦ Ennedi Shadow Assassin ♦  Tarkus ♦ wouanagaine
  Street Addon Mod - SAM

Offline Tarkus

  • Administrator
  • Forums Legend
  • *
  • Posts: 11408
  • Total likes: 4652
  • Reputation: 73
  • NAM Team Tankadillo
    • NAM HQ
  • CL: Dr. PuzzlePiece
Re: Bus Lanes Concept
« Reply #35 on: September 30, 2007, 02:35:16 PM »
Jason, the only TE Lots I really see that would be necessary for this would be the stations themselves.  The concept is actually kind of similar to GLR-in-Ave, it's just Monorail-in-Ave (or whatever network) and the automata spawned by the stations are buses.  As long as we can get the Monorail and the pseudo-Monorail bus lanes to not cross paths, we're good, and that can be accomplished through either draggable or puzzle-piece-based means rather than a TE Lot.

-Alex (Tarkus)

Offline Jonathan

  • NAM Team
  • Forums Guru
  • *
  • Posts: 2609
  • Total likes: 5
  • Reputation: 25
  • CL: Einstein, Jr. &scl()
Re: Bus Lanes Concept
« Reply #36 on: September 30, 2007, 02:50:59 PM »
So it wouldn't be able to monorail over Buslanes intersection?

Offline jplumbley

  • NHP Team
  • Forums Parliamentarian
  • *
  • Posts: 1438
  • Total likes: 12
  • Reputation: 43
  • "RULer 10000002"
  • CL: Plum Fierce
Re: Bus Lanes Concept
« Reply #37 on: September 30, 2007, 03:02:38 PM »
Not without a puzzle piece Warrior.
"You learn something new everyday."

http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/169/nhpjplumbleykv3.gif
Bringing the new horizons closer to reality.

Berethor ♦ beskhu3epnm ♦ blade2k5 ♦ dmscopio jplumbley ♦ moganite ♦ M4346 ♦ Dedgren ♦ Ennedi Shadow Assassin ♦  Tarkus ♦ wouanagaine
  Street Addon Mod - SAM

Offline allan_kuan1992

Re: Bus Lanes Concept
« Reply #38 on: September 30, 2007, 07:13:02 PM »
lemme get this straight...

- network is puzzle-piece based
- a monorail path will be used on the bus lane
- bus stop lots will spawn bus vehicles that will travel on the monorail path

If this is correct... hmm... well... i did say i wanted a draggable implementation... but then again, limitations... >.< oh wells... i'm willing to compromise.

in the meantime i'll tweak with the textures that might be needed.

- Allan K.

Offline Tarkus

  • Administrator
  • Forums Legend
  • *
  • Posts: 11408
  • Total likes: 4652
  • Reputation: 73
  • NAM Team Tankadillo
    • NAM HQ
  • CL: Dr. PuzzlePiece
Re: Bus Lanes Concept
« Reply #39 on: September 30, 2007, 07:35:28 PM »
Actually, Allan, provided some experiments jplumbley and I are working on pan out, it could be draggable, with the possible exception of the Monorail/Bus Lane crossing (similar to the El-Light Rail/GLR crossing).

-Alex