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Bus Lanes Concept

Started by allan_kuan1992, September 22, 2007, 01:08:11 AM

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Shadow Assassin

I had an idea.

QuoteUnforunately the game can't tell the difference between Buses and other road vehicles, the only way to do it would be to have a TE lot, which blocks everything except buses, at both ends of the Bus Lanes.

True, but we can fool the game into thinking there is a difference. The key is using dual-network pieces (say, monorail and road). A specific occupant group would need to be tied to the paths on that piece, as to ensure that monorails don't use the bus lane and vice versa. It's possible, but each puzzle piece would need to be made in such a way that any stations on that particular network spawn that occupant group and only that occupant group. I know it is possible to add new occupant groups, so this is indeed possible.

Plopping an ordinary monorail station, on the other hand... would allow monorails to use the bus network, unless the transit enabling of these stations were changed so that they only use two of the four I/O directions available (eg. east and west, north and south), AND block that bus occupant group. Transit-enabling in SC4Tool has all four in/out directions enabled by default, which causes that 'jumping' effect that you see on large lots, due to the game simulator exploiting that property. The I/O property is not affected by how the lot is transit-enabled, it simply enables occupant groups that are allowed on the lot. That's how the HOV lot worked, it blocked all groups except for pedestrian and buses.

It should be possible to block the monorail occupant group (the train) and allow a special bus occupant group. Think about how the SFBT, with their stations, experimented with this idea, thereby allowing specific GLR models to appear for their corresponding stations. For example, a Red Line Station would spawn Red Line trams, but a Blue Line Station would spawn Blue Line trams. These stations could block other trams from using them: a Red Line Station would only allow Red Line trams to stop there, the Blue Line trams were blocked.

So, it is indeed possible, but the key is the dual-networking pieces.
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Tarkus

Now that is an amazingly brilliant thought, SA. :thumbsup:  In theory, that should work very well, and it would get rid of those pesky TE-Lots.  I like fooling the game. :P 

-Alex (Tarkus)

Andreas

Quote from: Shadow Assassin on September 30, 2007, 12:58:25 AM
It should be possible to block the monorail occupant group (the train) and allow a special bus occupant group. Think about how the SFBT, with their stations, experimented with this idea, thereby allowing specific GLR models to appear for their corresponding stations. For example, a Red Line Station would spawn Red Line trams, but a Blue Line Station would spawn Blue Line trams. These stations could block other trams from using them: a Red Line Station would only allow Red Line trams to stop there, the Blue Line trams were blocked.

This is a nice theory indeed, however I'm not sure if we can make a station blocking automata. The BSC SFBT GLR Tram Mod is indeed set up in a way that the stations spawn specific automata (much like the schools spawn school buses), but the automata that is created will use all suitable network tiles - this means if you plop a red and a blue GLR station on one GLR line, both red and blue trams will appear.
Andreas

Jonathan

SA: you're saying we can add new automata?
It sounds brilliant but like Tarkus said it's theory and theory doesn't all ways work well in SC4.  ;)

Shadow Assassin

Yeah, basically, adding new automata. It's been done before. I know it is possible, since we already have some Dual Network pieces (notably the Avenue/GLR pieces).
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Andreas

Yes, you can add new automata, however only "single piece" automata - not entire trains with cars, unfortunately. Furthermore, the automata that is added by the usage of occupants and automata generator scripts doesn't reflect the actual usage of a station etc., but is just randomly spawned by the lot.
Andreas

Tarkus

Well, if it's set up so that the Monorail network (or whatever network gets used) can never access the spots where the bus lanes are, the two automata types will essentially be kept separate.  Just as long as the Monorail automata can be kept off the bus lanes.

-Alex (Tarkus)

Shadow Assassin

QuoteYes, you can add new automata, however only "single piece" automata - not entire trains with cars, unfortunately.

Isn't that what a bus basically is - single piece automata? :P
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Jonathan

So why doesn't Trains(normal rail) use GLR? Seeing as the GLR has to be pathed for UDI or Trams use Rail?
And is adding automata soemthing to do with Ingred.ini?

Andreas

Quote from: Shadow Assassin on September 30, 2007, 03:20:53 AM
Isn't that what a bus basically is - single piece automata? :P

Yes. But I didn't want to raise hopes for new HSRP trains, for instance. ;)
Andreas

Shadow Assassin

I see.

Warrior: normal rail doesn't use GLR because they are on two very different networks.
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JoeST

Is it not because GLR is bassed on Elevated Rail? so they would share automata???
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Jonathan

Andreas : Wow your good, that's twice you've read my mind ;D
I would love to ask why only single piece automata can be added but:
I can see this going off-topic shortly...

HALFEDIT: I wouldn't exactly say monorail and road/buses are the same?

figui

this has become much interesting!
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jplumbley

Quote from: Shadow Assassin on September 30, 2007, 12:58:25 AM
I had an idea.

True, but we can fool the game into thinking there is a difference. The key is using dual-network pieces (say, monorail and road). A specific occupant group would need to be tied to the paths on that piece, as to ensure that monorails don't use the bus lane and vice versa. It's possible, but each puzzle piece would need to be made in such a way that any stations on that particular network spawn that occupant group and only that occupant group. I know it is possible to add new occupant groups, so this is indeed possible.

Plopping an ordinary monorail station, on the other hand... would allow monorails to use the bus network, unless the transit enabling of these stations were changed so that they only use two of the four I/O directions available (eg. east and west, north and south), AND block that bus occupant group. Transit-enabling in SC4Tool has all four in/out directions enabled by default, which causes that 'jumping' effect that you see on large lots, due to the game simulator exploiting that property. The I/O property is not affected by how the lot is transit-enabled, it simply enables occupant groups that are allowed on the lot. That's how the HOV lot worked, it blocked all groups except for pedestrian and buses.

It should be possible to block the monorail occupant group (the train) and allow a special bus occupant group. Think about how the SFBT, with their stations, experimented with this idea, thereby allowing specific GLR models to appear for their corresponding stations. For example, a Red Line Station would spawn Red Line trams, but a Blue Line Station would spawn Blue Line trams. These stations could block other trams from using them: a Red Line Station would only allow Red Line trams to stop there, the Blue Line trams were blocked.

So, it is indeed possible, but the key is the dual-networking pieces.

Yes SA, your theory should be doable using TE Lots and Puzzle Pieces, but then we are back to a old GLR situation in which we will have to deal with the CTD issue with Puzzle Pieces (Network Pieces) and the TE Lots (Stations).  I was looking at this from a draggable point of view because personally, I would like to stay away from the Puzzle Piece/TE Lot solution.  As I dont want to deal with the CTD complaints that we cannot do anything about.
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Tarkus

Jason, the only TE Lots I really see that would be necessary for this would be the stations themselves.  The concept is actually kind of similar to GLR-in-Ave, it's just Monorail-in-Ave (or whatever network) and the automata spawned by the stations are buses.  As long as we can get the Monorail and the pseudo-Monorail bus lanes to not cross paths, we're good, and that can be accomplished through either draggable or puzzle-piece-based means rather than a TE Lot.

-Alex (Tarkus)


jplumbley

Not without a puzzle piece Warrior.
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allan_kuan1992

lemme get this straight...

- network is puzzle-piece based
- a monorail path will be used on the bus lane
- bus stop lots will spawn bus vehicles that will travel on the monorail path

If this is correct... hmm... well... i did say i wanted a draggable implementation... but then again, limitations... >.< oh wells... i'm willing to compromise.

in the meantime i'll tweak with the textures that might be needed.

- Allan K.

Tarkus

Actually, Allan, provided some experiments jplumbley and I are working on pan out, it could be draggable, with the possible exception of the Monorail/Bus Lane crossing (similar to the El-Light Rail/GLR crossing).

-Alex