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Which would you like in future versions of RTMT?  Please see the first and last posts before voting.

DAMN menus only
24 (53.3%)
DAMN and MML
13 (28.9%)
Either option would be OK
8 (17.8%)

Total Members Voted: 45

Author Topic: DAMN menus vs. MML  (Read 20128 times)

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Offline z

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DAMN menus vs. MML
« on: September 27, 2008, 11:34:55 PM »
Note:  Please see this post before voting in the poll.

Since DAMN has been officially released, I've been playing around with it, and it's a really impressive creation.  It looks just like what RTMT needs, and one of the versions of RTMT released shortly after 4.0 will contain a full implementation of DAMN menus for RTMT.  If you haven't used DAMN menus yet, you can download them from the LEX here and try them out.

Currently, we offer MML (menu management lots) to cut down on the number of icons that fill up users' menus.  But as we start adding more features to RTMT, MML gets very cumbersome.  The main problems I see with it are:

  • If we use a single MML icon for all of RTMT, an almost unmanageable number of icons will end up in the users' menus.
  • If we use multiple MML icons, you have the standard MML problem of having to wait a game month before you can use the ones you select.  Later, if you want to select more, you have to wait again.  If you simply select them all at once, you're stuck with the first problem.  And if you always use DAMN menus, those extra MML icons just get in the way.
  • MML does not get around a big problem of the current menu system, in that it is completely flat.  The hierarchical nature of DAMN menus will make finding stations a lot easier - no more scrolling through long lists.
  • One of the biggest disadvantages of MML is that once you click on an icon that has been added to your menu through MML, you can only plop the lot once.  Each time you want another lot of the same type, you have to click on the menu icon again.  With DAMN, one click on the icon will let you plop as many times as you want.

DAMN has another big advantage over standard menus.  With DAMN, there is space next to each menu icon for a short description.  This eliminates the need to mouse over similar-looking icons to see exactly what they are.

For these reasons, I favor making RTMT accessible solely through DAMN menus, as I see no advantage to MML over DAMN.  Many other people believe that DAMN has made MML obsolete.  It is also far less work to maintain a single menu system than to maintain two, especially where large numbers of entries are concerned.  But I thought I would check with our users first.  I ask that before voting, you give DAMN a try.  If you think that it's a sufficient system for RTMT, please choose the first option.  If you still want MML icons in addition, choose the second option, but please also post here explaining why.  People who choose the first or third options are obviously free to post here as well.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2009, 03:26:14 AM by z »

Offline Diggis

Re: DAMN menus vs. MML
« Reply #1 on: September 28, 2008, 05:38:14 AM »
There is an option in the DAMN menu to remove files from the main menus.  This has the same single plop effect as the MMLs however.

Offline cogeo

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Re: DAMN menus vs. MML
« Reply #2 on: September 28, 2008, 02:00:49 PM »
I would say offer both DAMN and MML:
- They aren't incompatible, actually implementation is exactly the same as far as the building exemplars are concerned (both require just setting the Conditional Building = true property).
- The MML as implemented for RTMTV3 does not require any additional implementation, if new lots are added.
- The button list may grow longer for V4, but it's not that bad, buttons have a distinctive design, so it's easy to tell whether you are in or out of "the RTMT area", ie the extra burden is just a few mouse wheel rolls. It doesn't require "thinking" or "poking around".
- Why not offer an MML for those who don't want to install DAMN?
- Installation is optional anyway.

@Diggis, has anybody tried removing the "Item Icon" and/or "Item Order" properties? Or maybe Occupant Groups like "Misc Transit"? If the game just removes the buttons, as a result (without leaving empty spaces), this might be a solution. The Conditional Building property wouldn't be set to true, of course, so it wouldn't be a "reward". I mean just remove the buttons, without making it a "reward". Just a thought.

Offline Diggis

Re: DAMN menus vs. MML
« Reply #3 on: September 28, 2008, 02:05:49 PM »
If the icon is missing it creates issues, but not sure if you remove the properties... I would guess without the item order it would just run as 0 and order by cost, size etc.  I'll ask around though.

Offline 0rion79

Re: DAMN menus vs. MML
« Reply #4 on: October 03, 2008, 10:34:31 AM »
MML is very uncomfortable for me, but the DAMN *could* be no better.

I have to say that I haven't had enough time to test it, and the use of DAMN depends from one answer only. Once that I switch off automatic advices pop-up, can I still use the DAMN?
If yes, then it's great.
Else I think that it is not worthy of because I cannot play with my dumb advisors interrupting my game with silly messages every 5 minutes! Keeping advices on is very irritating...

Anyway, may I aslo ask for a couple of different things about RTMT?
I'm taking confidences with the available MT stops and I would like to know:
- if in version 4 you plan to keep the non-avenue 1x2 stops and those el.train stops.
- if there is any way to use subway stops together with zones viewer. Actually, I have problems to place subway stops in an already-built city because I risk to place them into a small building and to close all of its connections with avenues (and sometimes road), and I risk too of not "centering" the street but to destroy a building by mistake.
Thank you! :)

Offline RippleJet

Re: DAMN menus vs. MML
« Reply #5 on: October 03, 2008, 11:04:32 AM »
- if there is any way to use subway stops together with zones viewer. Actually, I have problems to place subway stops in an already-built city because I risk to place them into a small building and to close all of its connections with avenues (and sometimes road), and I risk too of not "centering" the street but to destroy a building by mistake.

Unfortunately you cannot get rid of the buildings when plopping stations.
You could try to press PgUp and PgDn to get a better view though.

You could also try to press "G", and keep it pressed, so that the grid is clearly visible.
Then, count the number of tiles from something you can see.

In any case, do remember to save your city before plopping a difficult-to-see RTMT stop. :thumbsup:

Offline z

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Re: DAMN menus vs. MML
« Reply #6 on: October 03, 2008, 01:54:05 PM »
MML is very uncomfortable for me, but the DAMN *could* be no better.

I have to say that I haven't had enough time to test it, and the use of DAMN depends from one answer only. Once that I switch off automatic advices pop-up, can I still use the DAMN?
If yes, then it's great.
Else I think that it is not worthy of because I cannot play with my dumb advisors interrupting my game with silly messages every 5 minutes! Keeping advices on is very irritating...

EDIT: Jonathan gave a more authoritative answer below, so I'll just refer you there.  And of course, playing the game at Medium or Hard difficulty successively reduces the number of popups you get.

I'll answer your other questions in The RTMT V3 Support Thread, as they're unrelated to DAMN.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2008, 02:31:40 PM by z »

Offline Jonathan

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Re: DAMN menus vs. MML
« Reply #7 on: October 03, 2008, 02:02:16 PM »
Unfortunately you do need the advisor popups on :( , but I'd rather have the popups on and the DAMN on then both off.

Jonathan

Offline RippleJet

Re: DAMN menus vs. MML
« Reply #8 on: October 03, 2008, 04:38:32 PM »
Unfortunately you do need the advisor popups on :( , but I'd rather have the popups on and the DAMN on then both off.

Note also that you do get considerably less advisors popping up if you're playing on hard difficulty instead of easy... ::)

Offline JoeST

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Re: DAMN menus vs. MML
« Reply #9 on: October 03, 2008, 04:53:41 PM »
is it possible for a mod that reduces/removes the number of popup ones? so I dont end up spending 5 minutes at the start going through popups? :D

Joe
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Offline z

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Re: DAMN menus vs. MML
« Reply #10 on: October 03, 2008, 07:18:27 PM »
Since changing a standard game setting means that DAMN will not work, I think we're going to need to keep the standard menus and MML as an installation option, unless and until someone finds a way around this problem.  I think that DAMN would be installed in any case, as I see no downside in doing so.  Does this sound reasonable?

Offline 0rion79

Re: DAMN menus vs. MML
« Reply #11 on: October 04, 2008, 02:12:25 AM »
As long as we can choose, yes! :)

Offline b22rian

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Re: DAMN menus vs. MML
« Reply #12 on: October 04, 2008, 05:13:15 AM »
Since changing a standard game setting means that DAMN will not work, I think we're going to need to keep the standard menus and MML as an installation option, unless and until someone finds a way around this problem.  I think that DAMN would be installed in any case, as I see no downside in doing so.  Does this sound reasonable?

Yup, Sounds very reasonable to have both as an option.. You guys have done great work with this so far... &apls

its greatly appreciated..

Thanks, Brian

Offline z

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Re: DAMN menus vs. MML
« Reply #13 on: October 06, 2008, 08:42:37 PM »
Has anyone tried the 'Stupid News Ticker' Mod?  It gets rid of useless messages, but leaves important ones.  It would also be interesting to know if anyone has used it with DAMN.

Offline Diggis

Re: DAMN menus vs. MML
« Reply #14 on: October 07, 2008, 02:01:11 AM »
Z, that question is probably best placed in the DAMN thread, not here.  :P  On a side note, we may have figured out a way to hide the files when using the DAMN without the single plop problem.  We are just testing the theory before releasing a trick that may break stuff, but PM me if you want to test it.

Offline z

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Re: DAMN menus vs. MML
« Reply #15 on: April 03, 2009, 04:50:38 AM »
I've been doing a little math here, which has caused me to revisit this issue.  I know that some attempts to count stations were done in the New Additions thread, but looking at them, I see that they weren't accurate.  Here are the real numbers:

The core RTMT package contains 15 stations - not a huge number.  If you add in the roadside stations plus the GLR-in-avenue stations, you get 26.  That's what RTMT had been running with for the past couple of years or so.

The T-RAM stations I recently uploaded add only 3 more stations, making 29.  There are going to be 15 SAM stations (they're mostly done).  Oops - we're up to 44 now.  RTMT stations for turning lanes on roads and avenues make another 9 - that brings the total to 53, twice what we had at the beginning of the year.

And here's the kicker - All those networks either have diagonal versions, or have them planned.  So now we have 53 x 2 = 106 stations.  But wait, that's not all!  Throw in another 3 stations for el rail over road, another six stations for two different FAR pieces (at least), and that makes 115 - exactly 100 more stations than the current core package.  But we mustn't forget underground rail under road, and ped mall, and avenue, as all those are coming.  That comes out to 31 more stations (greater than the current size of RTMT right there), for a grand total of 146 stations.  And we haven't even gotten to the stations needed for all the versions of NWM...  And there are probably some that I forgot.  Also, SAM users might decide that they want some of those nice 1x2 stations, or various other ideas might come up.  (I've already got some in mind.)

I haven't even counted intersection stations, which I'm beginning to think we'll skip.

Anyway, by the time you throw in the NWM stations, you've got well over 150 stations, possibly even close to 200.  How many people want that in their menu?

Early on, we were on the verge of doing DAMN menus only, which is the one approach that I think can handle that volume of stations.  The big stumbling block came from people who objected that DAMN doesn't work if they turn off advisor popups.  I've been playing around with them, and turning them on and off doesn't seem to be a big deal.  So I think that those people who want to leave them off can do so most of the time, and turn them on when they want to use RTMT stations.  The change is immediate.  Nothing disastrous happens if you forget to make the change - events remind you soon enough.  The only alternative I know of is to have 150+ stations in your menu, which I think is unmanageable.  And MML here only postpones the inevitable.

So what do people think?  Is it OK to go straight to the multi-level DAMN menus for RTMT V4 and scrap the regular menus entirely?  Please respond, and you can also vote, or change your vote, above.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2009, 05:07:33 AM by z »

Offline JoeST

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Re: DAMN menus vs. MML
« Reply #16 on: April 03, 2009, 04:57:51 AM »
DAMN seems the only sensible way, especialy now its easyer to creat DAMN menues, with SSPTool
Copperminds and Cuddleswarms

Offline 0rion79

Re: DAMN menus vs. MML
« Reply #17 on: April 03, 2009, 05:05:47 AM »
Hello Z, how're u? Long time that I don't come on this forum but, by luck, today I have been allowed to stay at home for personal reasons and I've just got your mail.

I would glay appreciate if somebody of you could update me about the main news, but I would like to express my opinion about the matter: I hate DAMN and I think I won't use most of the new possibilities. I don't like ground light rail and won't use it and, as well, I won't use diagonal stops because diagonal streets in my cities are so few that I prefer to use enlarged versions of the 1x1 stops, so the number of icons in my game would still be reasonable and it would be a violence against my freedom to choose, if somebody would force me to use DAMN.

If it is possible, I would still like to have standard menu buttons, so that I would be free to choose the few ones that I will use. Else, please don't remove the previous RTMT version and include a link to it in the latest version release too.
Eg. "If you really don't like DAMN, you can get previous version here: www.PREVIOUSVERSION.foryou"

Thanks.

PS: I've just seen that I've forgot to reply to your latest e-mail. When I've written that I've lost confidence with the forum, I ment that there are too many news here and I have no time to read everything and keep myself up to date with latest news. Eg, I don't know what happened to CAM 2.0 project & stuff.

Offline Diggis

Re: DAMN menus vs. MML
« Reply #18 on: April 03, 2009, 05:56:42 AM »
So what do people think?  Is it OK to go straight to the multi-level DAMN menus for RTMT V4 and scrap the regular menus entirely?  Please respond, and you can also vote, or change your vote, above.

Z, in response to this, and to Orion's post above, when you create each lot you will still need to have a menu icon and location as per normal.  I would suggest leaving this as an option for people who don't want DAMN and using an override file, installed at the same time as the DAMN to remove them from the menu.  Best of both worlds.  ;)

Offline JoeST

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Re: DAMN menus vs. MML
« Reply #19 on: April 03, 2009, 03:07:35 PM »
how hard are MML's to make? is there a "template" thing, as Stefan (or anyone fluent in java) may be able to make a plugin for creating MML's for SSPTool, and then you could make a two(/three) option installer: nothing or DAMN+overrideds (or
  • MML's)

Joe
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