Civil engineering support thread: slope mods, other tools and issues

[Shadow Assassin]

I had completely forgotten about this!

Unfortunately, I can't exactly update the lots on the LEX because beskhu3epnm uploaded them on behalf of me...

I'll ask Barby about updating these lots.

[FrankU]

Dear friends,

Would it be possible to make lots that raise or dig 10 tiles or so in a row?
I usually work in flat areas and raising and digging for highways and rails is such a boring task: put a digger lot, dig the hole, place single street tiles in enormous amounts.
It would take much less time if I could place lots that take ten or more tiles up or down at one instance. Maybe like PEG's leveller tools?

Thanks

[Ennedi]

Dear friends,

Would it be possible to make lots that raise or dig 10 tiles or so in a row?
I usually work in flat areas and raising and digging for highways and rails is such a boring task: put a digger lot, dig the hole, place single street tiles in enormous amounts.
It would take much less time if I could place lots that take ten or more tiles up or down at one instance. Maybe like PEG's leveller tools?

Thanks

It is possible to make leveller lots, but i will always lead to the difficult question: Which size will be the best for most people? 

But fortunately you can level a large area - even the whole big city - in only a few whiles.

First decide which level will be your basic one and prepare a flat row for SA Raiser/Hole Digger lots:



Then level a small area (not more than 10x10 tiles, 6x6 will be enough too) using Raiser (or Hole Digger depending on your needs) and road:





Now you should use God Mode levelling tool (not this one available in your city, you must switch to the pre-city God Mode). Click Ctrl+Shift+Alt + God Mode button (this one with the sun icon  ). Choose levelling tool.



The default levelling tool size will be bigger than your flattened area. Decrease the tool size (press Shift 3 or Shift 4). The tool circle should be smaller than the flattened area.
Now enlarge the flattened area making it a few times bigger. Then you can increase the tool size (Shift 9) and/or change the zoom. Now you can level your whole city very quickly.
With some practice you can finish edges of the flattened area using only the levelling tool, decreasing it's size to Shift 2. You can also use road tiles to make it precisely. You can also smoothen edges using another God Mode tool.
This method works very nice if you have an uneven edge of the flattened area, for example if you are working at the foot of the mountain. You can also use it to prepare the long flat surface for your projected highway.

Don't afraid of using God Mode terraforming tools in your cities!  They can be precisely adjusted to your needs, you must only remember:
Shift 1 - Shift 9: size
Shift F1 - Shift F9: strength.

Adam

[MAS71]

@Shadow Assassin
Thank you for reply.
Ok, I'm(we are) waiting for upload fixed LOTs while.
and sorry to my misunderstand who upload them. 
(I did not read who upload them. I saw only your name in the works.)

Thank you again Sharow Assasin, beskhu3epnm and Smoncrie for your original useful works.

[FrankU]

Ennedi,

Thanks for your elaborate answer. 
I know the technique you showed here. God mode levelling has no secrets for me anymore. But it is not accurate enough to level a whole highway through a flat city. Only two tiles wide... It is more work than the boring plopping of street tiles.
And yes, we could quarrel endlessly about what is the perfect size, but on the other hand, I think that a leveller that is 1 tile wide and 6 or 10 tiles long (maybe both?) would satisfy most wishes.

[HandsOn]

Ennedi,

Thanks for your elaborate answer. 
I know the technique you showed here. God mode levelling has no secrets for me anymore. But it is not accurate enough to level a whole highway through a flat city. Only two tiles wide... It is more work than the boring plopping of street tiles.
And yes, we could quarrel endlessly about what is the perfect size, but on the other hand, I think that a leveller that is 1 tile wide and 6 or 10 tiles long (maybe both?) would satisfy most wishes.

For what its worth, I agree with FrankU, Ennedi (you and I have discussed similar issues before), and I thingk that a set of levellers, modelled on the originals (sorry, don't recall who made them) which had 2-tile-wide pieces, would make a lot of sense, especially if they cam in three sizes: single, 3-long and 6-long in the different heights and depths, but all regardless of network would be raised with a road for single-width and an avenue or highway for the double width.

The current diggers/raisers recommended for your excellent slope mods have faults and actually don't work as well as the older ones.

[Ennedi]

@FrankU, HandsOn:

1. OK, so we will have to discuss an idea of making the levellers set 
But we speak here about two different things: raisers/diggers and levellers.
- All raisers/hole diggers are 1 tile long (and 1 or 2 tiles wide). If we can make longer lot which could raise/lower the terrain - we should ask Shadow Assassin, he knows this mechanism.
- Levellers (the only existing ones were made by PEG, they are 1x4 and 4x4) work in another way. We must have 1 (or 4 depending on which leveller we use) tiles levelled at the needed altitude, then we place a leveller next to previously levelled tiles in the direction showed by an arrow.
Making such leveller is probably quite easy (but I'm not a specialist in making custom lots). If we would make a levellers set, our working method would be to set the needed terrain altitude (using raisers/hole diggers if necessary) and then use levellers to level larger area (for example for highway preparation). In this case it wouldn't be necessary to make too many lots, only a few ones with different sizes (as HandsOn suggested).
We will discuss it in NHP.

2. I think SA diggers/raisers will be updated soon, if Barby will not have time, I can help with it too. I will speak with Shadow Assassin about it.

[HandsOn]

The levellers made by Peg have a disatvange - they only really level the terrain if the difference in height isn't too great. even if you place several - regardless of size - next to each other, once you bulldoze them, the bumps and inundations simply reappear. With or without slope mode - I've basically have given up on them.

Raisers and diggersare, naturally, a different ball game, but they are the only ones really useful, at least I think so. And as others have stated, trying to use either God or Mayor mode to even out a stretch of two tiles by whatever length is a tedious and utterly time consuming task. What makes it more difficult is the fact that "walls" require a certain height (15m I think), but the quick level tools act on the "base" rather than follow the contour of the land, thus tend to leave the sides of the dig at various heights.

Besides, since the quick levellers are round it becomes nearly impossible to follow a line of a planned road, highway or rail. And Peg's levellers simply don't do the job.

[Ennedi]

The levellers made by Peg have a disatvange - they only really level the terrain if the difference in height isn't too great. even if you place several - regardless of size - next to each other, once you bulldoze them, the bumps and inundations simply reappear. With or without slope mode - I've basically have given up on them.

I agree about PEG's levellers, but we must remember that they were made long time ago and modders' knowledge was less at that time. Anyway it was a pioneer work. Placing levellers one next to another isn't effective, I agree again. I'm afraid we can have similar problems with new levellers too.
Levellers have nothing common with the slope mod.

Raisers and diggersare, naturally, a different ball game, but they are the only ones really useful, at least I think so. 

I agree.

And as others have stated, trying to use either God or Mayor mode to even out a stretch of two tiles by whatever length is a tedious and utterly time consuming task.

I don't agree. It only needs looking at your terrain shape and proper planning. After that, leading the flat stretch across a large city needs a few minutes (and a few minutes for finishing edges according to your needs - you can want walls with constant or variable height, or soft slopes). And of course it needs some practice.

What makes it more difficult is the fact that "walls" require a certain height (15m I think), but the quick level tools act on the "base" rather than follow the contour of the land, thus tend to leave the sides of the dig at various heights.

So we have now the third, again completely different theme  The "quick level" tools keep the terrain level which we have at the start point. But as I understand, you would like to have a tool which exactly repeats the terrain shape, but 15 m higher?
I can't see any practical application of such tool. If we prepare an area for road, highway or building, our needs are usually different than the previous terrain shape. Walls will have usually variable height on an uneven terrain.
You don't need to have all walls at least 15 m high. You need diagonal walls at least 15 m high if you use the Diagonal Jagged Edges Mod to have them appeared correctly. If you don't have DJEM, your diagonal walls should be at least (about) 22 m high and you need to use 24 m SA Raiser to achieve it.
There are always many methods to achieve the specific goal. You can - for example - shape the terrain using the transit network curvature (using one of my slope mods), then raise a small area and repeat this operation higher. You can also do practically everything using Terrain Query and the micro terraforming method which I showed many times.
We should take into account that we don't develop the new game  We are limited by the Maxis SC4 content. We have a limited amount of parameters which can be changed by us. So we can't create any "magic" tools to perform something completely different than Maxis creators provided (however we do it from time to time  )

Besides, since the quick levellers are round it becomes nearly impossible to follow a line of a planned road, highway or rail. And Peg's levellers simply don't do the job.

Again I can't agree. It only needs some practice. To make a flat, narrow surface with a straight or diagonal wall you need to decrease the God Mode levelling tool size (Shift 2) and move the mouse slowly. This breakwater and all waterfronts were made using this method without any significant problem, w3ith a few little improvements after the first operation. Using road tiles or raisers would be impossible on water 

[flame1396]

Informative post Ennedi, and nice terraforming in that picture. I've done breakwaters and they are a *pain*

[HandsOn]

Yes Adam, we agree to disagree. And you bring in the superb photographic evidence to boot. Still, as you said, it is a game, and at that point it becomes work.

Of course I have come to expect miracles from folks like yourself - you cannot deliver brilliance all the time and then act surprised when simple chaps like myself expect yet another miracle  .

Seriously though, I still believe that a remake of the levellers, with today's insight, would help enormously; and I still think that a varied set of raisers/diggers would go a long way towards creating what you need.

Naturally, practice makes perfect. But if everyone, yourself included, was really willing to "accept" the Maxis limitations, we would have neither levellers nor slope mods today 

So, my friend, let's set the usages aside for the moment, and that leaves us with a need for a remake of one set of tools, namely the levellers; and a new set of raisers/diggers. Remains the question of who will step into the breach 

[BarbyW]

SA, you can update your own lots now and have been able to for some time I have also changed the uploader for the hole diggers from beskhu3epnm to you so you can update those yourself.

[Simpson]

Ho Ennedi your pic of your city is magnifical  and the nature look so realistic

[superhands]

And as others have stated, trying to use either God or Mayor mode to even out a stretch of two tiles by whatever length is a tedious and utterly time consuming task.

just an idea. what about a dragable road that flattens the tiles to be the same height. it could be a slope mod that is flat. then remove it from the plugins folder when done landscaping. is this possible?

[HandsOn]

 

just an idea. what about a dragable road that flattens the tiles to be the same height. it could be a slope mod that is flat. then remove it from the plugins folder when done landscaping. is this possible?

Well Adam? Does this not touch on an earlier discussion we had a while ago..? 

[Ennedi]

just an idea. what about a dragable road that flattens the tiles to be the same height. it could be a slope mod that is flat. then remove it from the plugins folder when done landscaping. is this possible?

Good idea, I will check it immediately

[Shadow Assassin]

SA, you can update your own lots now and have been able to for some time Grin I have also changed the uploader for the hole diggers from beskhu3epnm to you so you can update those yourself.

Heh, thanks.

Will update them tomorrow - I have the stuff ready, but I just need to look through again to make sure I don't forget anything.

[Jonathan]

Making a draggable road that levels land, without having to put things in and out of plugins folder is not possible.
But making a puzzle piece that basically lays lots of one tile streets next to each other in one click and levels land is possible.
There are two main bonuses. practically any shape can be made so no need to stick to rectangles (this means diagonal levelers can be done)
If you place it so that one tile is on land and the rest are in water, it will raise the land up from under the sea.
And one slight con I can think of atm is that they must be included in the NAM.

I can make each piece in just a few minutes if not less, and any one who can make puzzle pieces( and possibly those who can't) should find it quick and easy.

If anyone is interested I can post pictures

Jonathan

[HandsOn]

If anyone is interested I can post pictures

Jonathan

Interested? Warrior - that's like asking if anyone might be interested in custom content! 

This is a brilliant idea!!!! But why would it have to be included in NAM - and if indeed it needs to be - why is that a con rather than a pro?

[Jonathan]

It would have to be included in NAM because it's a puzzle piece, and that's a slight con because it would mean new pieces could only be made when the NAM gets updated.