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What should I do?      Please read below before voting.

Re-write the RTL Plugin.
81 (89%)
Leave it as is.
7 (7.7%)
Dont care (dont use it)
3 (3.3%)

Total Members Voted: 90

Author Topic: NEW - Turning Lanes Plugin - POLL Closed  (Read 34565 times)

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Offline jplumbley

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NEW - Turning Lanes Plugin - POLL Closed
« on: October 09, 2007, 05:54:34 PM »
Alright, I am about to write the RULs for the TLA-5 (Turning Lane Avenues - 5 Lanes).  I have hit a problem in which I am not sure what I should do.  I have talked to others in the past because I knew this problem existed with some of the older NAM Plugins, but nothing has been done because if something is changed to one part, everyone will have to re-draw portions of their Transit Systems due to the fixes and changes.

I have decided under the advise of some very good credible members in the community to take this to a public poll to get feedback on this issue.  Here is the issue:

The RTL (Road Turning Lane) Plugin for NAM is very, very inefficient and by in large very difficult to follow when writing code for other additions to the NAM like TLA-5 or any other texture variation that deals with the Road Network.  By inefficient I mean there are alot of duplicate textures, RULs that are useless because they are overriden by other RULs and due to the fact there are so many duplicate textures there are many RULs that if the duplicate textures werent there could be done with one set of RULs instead of 4 sets.

What do I want to do?
I want to rebuild the RTL Plugin and build it into the TLA-3 and TLA-5 Project.  This means bringing the RTL textures and re-structuring the IIDs to fit within the TLA Projects, it means erasing the 25+ duplicate textures (this doesnt include the wealth and zoom variations).  It also means re-writing the RULs to be more efficient.

What will this do for you?
This will not change a thing visually.  You will probably not even notice a difference due to less memory being used by the extra textures and RULs.  But it will force you when you first install the new Plugin to re-draw all your Road/Road Intersection.  You would only need to click once on the intersection and it would be fixed forever, but it may take some CJers a while to go through their regions and update the intersections.

What will this do for current transit modders and future transit modders?
This will make it easier for the transit modders of today and future to make work arounds for the RTL Plugin.  There will be less RULs to scan, less textures to scan, less RULs to override, etc.  It will save time in the long run because it will be much more organized and properly commented to explain what is happening.

Here is a list of the duplicate textures:
(There are about 55 or so original RTL textures and about 27 of them are duplicates... you do the math)

0x5f005700 - MAXIS Road T-Intersection
0x5f015400 - MAXIS Road T-Intersection
0x5f015600 - Same as texture 0x5f015100
0x5f015700 - Same as texture 0x5f015200
0x5f01bb00 - Same as texture 0x5f01ba00
0x5f01bc00 - Same as texture 0x5f01ba00
0x5f01da00 - MAXIS Road Straight
0x5f01db00 - MAXIS Road Straight
0x5f01dc00 - MAXIS Road Straight
0x5f01df00 - Same as texture 0x5f01ba00 (rotated 180 degrees)
0x5f01ea00 - Same as texture 0x5f01be00
0x5f01eb00 - Same as texture 0x5f01ba00
0x5f01ec00 - Same as texture 0x5f01bd00
0x5f01fa00 - Same as texture 0x5f01be00
0x5f01fb00 - Same as texture 0x5f01ba00
0x5f01fc00 - Same as texture 0x5f01bd00
0x5f01fd00 - Same as texture 0x5f01ed00
0x5f01fe00 - Same as texture 0x5f01ee00
0x5f01ff00 - Same as texture 0x5f01b800
0x5f020100 - Same as texture 0x5f01ef00
0x5f020700 - MAXIS 4way Road Texture
0x5f022000 - Same as texture 0x5f020000
0x5f022100 - Same as texture 0x5f01ef00
0x5f022200 - Same as texture 0x5f020200
0x5f022300 - MAXIS Road Straight

Now, as far as I can tell all of these have been referenced to some extent in the RULs... Some, get overriden by other overrides and there are about 3x the RULs required as there are variations for all of these textures.
___________________________________

So, I leave this question to you:
Should I?


1.  Fix the issues and release an updated RTL Plugin.  Remember this means you will have to click on every Road/Road intersection when you install the updated plugin.

2.  Ignore the issue and delay the release of TLA-5 and TLA-3 even longer.

3.  You dont care because you dont use the RTL Plugin with the NAM.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2007, 07:00:27 AM by jplumbley »
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Offline M4346

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Re: RTL - Road Turning Lanes Plugin - POLL
« Reply #1 on: October 09, 2007, 06:10:40 PM »
As I've stated elsewhere I, personally, don't mind a revision and update of the RTL plugin. I don't think that we should even be given a choice between efficiency and having it 'easy'.

If you're not happy with a revision and an update you can always keep the old file, no?

I am, however, concerned about the TLA-5 and TLA-3. Will it then become standard with the installation of the RTL and TLA (currently with the NAM), or will it be optional apart from the RTL and current TLA?
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Offline mott

Re: RTL - Road Turning Lanes Plugin - POLL
« Reply #2 on: October 09, 2007, 06:49:00 PM »
For whatever my vote is worth since I'm not the one doing the work... I vote for clean, efficient code.   

Echoing the poster above, are you still planning to implement TLA3/5 as a new draggable network type based on roads, then?  Just trying to plan ahead here.

Offline Filasimo

Re: RTL - Road Turning Lanes Plugin - POLL
« Reply #3 on: October 09, 2007, 06:49:29 PM »
I would say go for it Mr. J!  :thumbsup:
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Offline jplumbley

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Re: RTL - Road Turning Lanes Plugin - POLL
« Reply #4 on: October 09, 2007, 07:06:59 PM »
OK well... I am going to leave this poll open for a couple of days.  I would hope to have some sort of difinative answer by Fridayish so I can maybe start on this on the weekend.

PLEASE to those who are voting your opinion is very valid and wanted!


EDIT:
TLA-5 and TLA-3 will be Draggable Texture Variations.  TLA-5 is designed to work just like RHW-4 with side by side overrides to start it.  TLA-3 is designed to work like SAM as a Starter Piece then drag.  These will be separated off like RHW, SAM, etc.

RTL if I re-write it, I can look for new ways to making it optional.  Say, dragging back to back Street to Road connections before a T or 4 Way intersection will overwrite the Intersection with a RTL for only that side.  It would be a bit more complicated to drag these intersections in this form but they would be optional in some respect if I did it like this.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2007, 07:22:38 PM by jplumbley »
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Offline rickmastfan67

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Re: RTL - Road Turning Lanes Plugin - POLL
« Reply #5 on: October 09, 2007, 08:17:20 PM »
1.  Fix the issues and release an updated RTL Plugin.  Remember this means you will have to click on every Road/Road intersection when you install the updated plugin.

If you can make the game run a tad faster by doing this, I'm all for it. ;) :thumbsup:
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Offline Shadow Assassin

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Re: RTL - Road Turning Lanes Plugin - POLL
« Reply #6 on: October 09, 2007, 08:24:52 PM »
Well, the RTLs should be optional. But that'd cause issues, wouldn't it?
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Offline Pat

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Re: RTL - Road Turning Lanes Plugin - POLL
« Reply #7 on: October 09, 2007, 09:14:44 PM »

Jp as far as im concerned here if this will make the game play move faster by getting rid of the duplicate files then by all means do it... So what i would have to make a few alterations in my cities so what but if its for the better of the game and the ease of work on you im all for it plain and simple - pat

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Offline Andreas

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Re: RTL - Road Turning Lanes Plugin - POLL
« Reply #8 on: October 09, 2007, 09:39:25 PM »
When I designed the NAM installer, I made the road turning lane plugin optional on purpose - despite knowing that quite a lot of people use it. I always thought that it might have a (too) large impact on the in-game roads and that it also might slow down older systems, esp. if you have a grid city with lots of road intersections. Personally, I don't use it, so I'd say as well that you should optimize it, despite of the disadvantages. I can already hear the whining once it's released, because nobody read the readme file, but this cannot be avoided, as usual. ;)
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Offline Tarkus

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Re: RTL - Road Turning Lanes Plugin - POLL
« Reply #9 on: October 09, 2007, 09:46:33 PM »
I must say I'm strongly in favor of Option 1 that JP proposed here.  The RTL plugin is over two years old now (the dates on the RUL are from July 2005), and a lot has changed about transit modding in the time since, namely the prevalence of override-based network extensions (ONEs) like the RHW, SAM, and TLAs. 

I personally have some experience trying to work around the RTL plugin when making intersections with the TLAs, and the structure of the RTL modification made this an extremely daunting task. 

I have also already started a modification which will allow both RTL and non-RTL intersections to be created in a city, which hides the RTL by using a Road-to-Street transition one tile before the intersection.  The Transit Query shows the point of this transition as a Road, so the transit speed/capacity and general functionality is not negatively affected.  And it doesn't rely on the existing RTL coding.  The only thing it really needs are some T21s and it will be more or less ready. ;)

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Offline ScottFTL

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Re: RTL - Road Turning Lanes Plugin - POLL
« Reply #10 on: October 09, 2007, 10:02:27 PM »

I also vote for Option 1.  It would be best to fix the issues now.

I also agree with Andreas.  I'm sure there will be complaints, but there always are when the NAM is updated.  I'm sure they will quiet down when they see all the cool new things you folks have been working on.   :thumbsup:

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Re: RTL - Road Turning Lanes Plugin - POLL
« Reply #11 on: October 10, 2007, 12:36:27 AM »
go ahead  :)  i know you will do this great  ;D good luck
 (ive voted for the first option)

Offline JoeST

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Re: RTL - Road Turning Lanes Plugin - POLL
« Reply #12 on: October 10, 2007, 12:39:11 AM »
Of course I agree, you guys know what your doing, (at least I think so), so I will read the readme and we will be happy


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Offline figui

Re: RTL - Road Turning Lanes Plugin - POLL
« Reply #13 on: October 10, 2007, 12:51:13 AM »
i voted for option 1. since i'm not who's doing the job of rewriting, i feel loke my vote should be considered 1/4 or less.. but anyway, thats my opinion about your question. i think the work on "click the intersection" will be worth enough..
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Offline M4346

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Re: RTL - Road Turning Lanes Plugin - POLL
« Reply #14 on: October 10, 2007, 04:43:36 AM »
I'd say thus far you've managed to secure a resounding AYE! :P
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Offline jplumbley

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Re: RTL - Road Turning Lanes Plugin - POLL
« Reply #15 on: October 10, 2007, 02:07:30 PM »
Talk about a landslide.  Poll is 31 to 1 saying re-write the RTL at the moment.

I think the voice has spoken, but I will still wait until Friday.  Due to the landslide it has made me think of ways I can maybe expand this Plugin and make the parts optional.  Alex will be happy with the implementation, but I will keep them a secret for a little longer, I have a few things I have to do to make it work first and when I do I will show you.  ;)
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Offline Pat

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Re: RTL - Road Turning Lanes Plugin - POLL
« Reply #16 on: October 10, 2007, 02:13:16 PM »

Jp make that 32 to 1 lol.... cant wait to see further progress here....

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Offline JoeST

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Re: RTL - Road Turning Lanes Plugin - POLL
« Reply #17 on: October 10, 2007, 02:21:08 PM »
are you going to fill out the set while your doing it to allow for ave/road crosses??? if you did it would be perfect
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Offline jplumbley

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Re: RTL - Road Turning Lanes Plugin - POLL
« Reply #18 on: October 10, 2007, 02:24:37 PM »
are you going to fill out the set while your doing it to allow for ave/road crosses??? if you did it would be perfect

Ummm...  :D

I will be making it so that you choose where the Turning Lanes will be put.  Will that include AVE/Road Intersections?  I said I will keep my secret a little longer for Alex to read my ideas and then we will put our theories to work and come back to show you.
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Offline JoeST

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Re: RTL - Road Turning Lanes Plugin - POLL
« Reply #19 on: October 10, 2007, 02:29:11 PM »
Nice, cant wait, thanks for the quick reply tho. mmmmm choice, is a wonderful thing may make me play again (im waiting for some of the stuff for the NAM)
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