The future of the community.

[Tarkus]

What does surprise me is that you can deny that modding the game is difficult to access for new members. As someone who has been on the periphery for a couple of years it looks to me to be completely impenetrable. I'm not sure where I would even start if I just bought the game in one of the frequent Steam sales.

We've actually had quite a few folks become active NAM Team members after joining or becoming active in the community fairly late in the going.  In fact, it's pretty safe to say that these folks have been among the most productive NAMites we've ever had.  It's pretty much always required some combination of skill, intelligence, and dedication to succeed at producing custom content.  Someone with enough dedication can usually pick up enough of the other two to be successful.  Admittedly, it is probably harder now, because many of the easier things have been done and the things left are more daunting, but it's not impossible.

The language of the community is probably a problem, all these ridiculous acronyms can be very confusing.

I agree that there are a lot of acronyms to deal with . . . I'm to blame for many of the NAM ones.  But I'm not sure the non-acronym names for things are really too much more helpful.

The thing that really hinders new players on a far greater scale than that language is dependencies. There have been many debates before (which is basically the reason why this site was founded as far as I remember) but it remains a massive problem that will not go away. Over the years I have collected and catalogued a grand total of about 1,300 files (3.6gb in size) which basically allow me to download almost anything without brown boxes. Connection speeds are much faster and hard drives much bigger than back in 2005, but plugins are spread across more than one exchange and most of them are separate downloads zipped up and then contained in installers. The process of getting yourself to the point I find myself in could take days and days. Who wants to do that? Who has the time? There were simple solutions to this that could have been implemented, package managers or maybe SVN but these never happened. I always assumed it was because no one in the community had the technical ability to do so, there are still separate accounts for the LEX and this forum for example. Some non community members have simply made up their own solution. I am a member of a forum that has a fairly active Simcity thread in it's games section. They compiled a 'gigapack' of dependencies and that's how most people get into the game there. AFAIK it's quite incomplete and riddled with duplicates but it's the quickest way to get into the game for newcomers and they take it by default rather than mess around with the dependencies on here or the STEX.

Really this whole thing could have been solved years ago, but no one wanted to do it because of politics or arrogance or whatever (real life was obviously an issue but probably a minor one). If anyone who was around then is still wondering why people kept complaining over and over about dependencies, it was because there was a real problem. It's a shame that instead of addressing it you just made another site with another exchange so you didn't have to listen anymore. I don't think I ever disputed that dependencies add real visual value to the game, only that their implementation was wildly wrong. I suppose the current situation isn't as bad as it was back then as we have megapacks now, but my point still stands.

I'll admit, the dependency situation can be a bit daunting, and there's always been detractors over the years.  There are legitimate arguments against it, but there are just as many for it, and sure, there's always improvements that can be made in the implementation.  But it then gets to the point where it comes to whether the custom content creators--doing all this for free, as a hobby in their free time--should be spending time making SC4 content or organizing that content.  While no one is saying that content should be disorganized, there's a balance that needs to be struck there. 

I should also point out that the current conception of dependencies existed before SC4D.  It was a paradigm on the old "official" SC4 exchange on the EA/Maxis site, and carried over to Simtropolis and elsewhere first.  While I can't entirely speak to why our exchange is the way it is, I'd imagine the reason the LEX is the way it is is out of familiarity with the STEX and SimPeg approach, such that it would not come off completely foreign to the userbase.

There's also issue of intellectual property.  There's been a lot of SC4 custom content creators over the years, many of whom are no longer active, and some who have opposed the creation of Megapacks of their content (some old NDEXers come to mind).  Without permission from those folks, it would fly in the face of the community to package things up into Megapacks in spite of that, and instead, those items have to be referred to on a piecemeal basis as dependencies.  A lot of older stuff was also designed and packaged not knowing the requirements of future game developments (or current internet speed/bandwidth) that weren't even dreamed of at the time, so that complicates matters even further.  Things like the aforementioned "gigapack", while perhaps convenient to download, are completely irresponsible, and also compete with the content DVDs that SC4 Devotion, Simtropolis and SimPeg have offered for years as a way to thank donors who contribute to the sites' continued operation. 

I will say that given the nature of increased broadband speeds,  higher site bandwidth, and to minimize the potential for "component mismatches", the next NAM release, Version 31, will essentially be a Megapack (dubbed the "Monolithic NAM").  It will merge in all major peripheral components (e.g. RealHighway, Network Widening Mod, Rail Addon Mod, etc.), and we will be discontinuing the separate-download versions of those plugins. 

As far as the installers go, they exist mainly as it's less problematic for creators to deal with "click next finger" complaints than it is to deal with constant "how do I install this?" tech support cases.  Yes, there are drawbacks, but the types of installers we use in the SC4 community are vastly superior to some I've seen used in other games' custom content communities (try unzipping 100 WinZip Self-Extractor .exes in one sitting, where the creator hasn't registered the software and there's a nag screen on every file) and generally have very good compression ratios (the NSIS package we use with the NAM has a better compression ratio even than RAR or 7Z files). 

The LEX/Forum divide was done for security reasons, primarily, and as the LEX software is a proprietary custom software package, we cannot really modify it.  Unless we take the unlikely step of switching software, which would be a rather complex undertaking (the ones that exist as SMF Plugins are too primitive), I don't see that changing.  Are there things that could be improved with it?  Sure--that's true of just about every complex piece of software, and I'm sure all of us are sick of "I can't find the download button" complaints (which have fortunately calmed quite a bit).  But aside from that, the software works and generally does what it is supposed to do.

Bold emphasis above is mine - I will admit that there are lots of things about the site that I don't understand, which is fine.  The organization, the segmentation, what-have-you.  And not to dredge up the past, but I am also unclear as to the nature and circumstances of "the Great Schism" which caused this site to be created in the first place. 

Though it is often attributed as such, "The Great Schism" was not caused by the creation of this site.  From what I know of jeronij's vision of the site, it was to create a veritable "skunk works" of SC4 development, and offer developmental space for teams and creators.  I know he also wanted to keep things focused on SC4, with off-topic to a minimum and an avoidance of rampant speculation on the mythical SC5 and such.  The site opened in November 2006.  Folks started moving over here gradually at the beginning of 2007.  The reasons were many, and naturally, there were some hard feelings as at that point, ST was the unquestioned developmental hub of the SC4 world. 

I can't really speak for the BSC side of things, but on the NAM side, there were some issues with the STEX's 10MB upload limit, and the way some site regulars and then-staff members apparently thought that ST "owned the NAM".  They lambasted us when we allowed SC4D and SimsZone.de to host it, while they were roadblocking us from having it at ST (because it exceeded 10MB, Dirk was having to manually FTP it up to the server, and it was taking him weeks to get it up).  Between that and the fact that we could have an entire private board at SC4D rather than a single, disorganized private thread at ST, we migrated over here.  The NAM Team's relationship with ST has largely improved since then.  Dirk made a concerted effort to satisfy some of our concerns with the ST 6.0 upgrade, and several current ST staff members are also NAM Team members.  We began to start taking a somewhat more active presence there again in late-2008/2009.  The relationship between the SC4D and ST staff has also improved over time, and we somewhat regularly have cross-site dialogues about issues affecting both sites. 

But back to the main point:

Yet the whole thrust of the thread at the beginning was in response to what the OP perceived as a decline in activity on this site.  So I am left to ponder...how can SC4Devotion evolve to meet current interest/activity levels of today?

That is a good question.  And I think it's one we need to get back to discussing in earnest.  Here's my take: SC4D is, first and foremost, an SC4 site, which is the primary home of several major content teams and projects, as well as originating the Pic Competition and also housing a number of MDs that, at least in my view, seem to have a different feel to them than the CJs at ST (even though some of them are posted on both sites).  Between a lot of RL with long-standing creators, more projects happening primarily behind closed doors, and an increasing tendency of folks to view/lurk, it's created the impression of decreased activity on the public side of the site. 

There's quite a few different angles from which this can be attacked.  As I've been typing quite awhile now and have other things to get to, I'll come back with more on this later.

-Alex

[Pat]

So, ultimately, I guess I'm saying, what is the goal for SC4Devotion?

madhatter106, on one hand that's a legitimate question.  In the context of the rest of your post, though, I'm a little bit concerned about the intention behind asking it.

My "intention" is to merely pose the question. I'm playing devils' advocate.  Are you perceiving an ulterior motive (whatever it may be) on my part?

I don't want to see this thread head too far off-topic, as it, after all, is about the community at large and not specifically about SC4D but when you say a statement by the site's management "the home for the serious player," "sticks in your craw," red flags start going up for me.

The thread was started as a question regarding the community activity on this particular website and what changes can be made to this site to make it better, and has morphed into a discussion of the community at large.

And that phrase does stick in my craw.  The frustrating thing about it is that it smacks of "hey the people in this clubhouse are the real deal."  The implication being that other clubhouses don't have the real deal people.  Which I want to emphasize - I know that is not your intent.  But it can still be inferred that way by others.

That said, we turn to English-speaking sites.  Simtropolis and SimPeg immediately come to mind.  Both also provide, I am sure, a "home for serious players," because if nothing else I know community members who primarily post at one or the other and not here whom I consider some of the finest players and custom content creators out there.  I'm a member of all three sites, and I wish everyone would choose to be, but that's not the case.

Yet none of those sites have a banner at the top saying they're a "home for serious players."  No one creates a website for a hobby with the intent of being a place for people who aren't serious about the subject.  So why the need for the phrase "home for the serious player?"

Listen - I know you're not all sitting in the clubhouse twirling your moustaches over expensive brandy and patting each other on the back saying you're the elitest of elite.  I know that's not the case.  I'm merely trying to point out that the banner phrase can be misconstrued or inferred as elitest or arrogant.  Again, I know that's not what your intent is.

The site's popularity is apparent in terms of both membership numbers and ongoing activity.

Yet the whole thrust of the thread at the beginning was in response to what the OP perceived as a decline in activity on this site.  So I am left to ponder...how can SC4Devotion evolve to meet current interest/activity levels of today?

Madhatter now what I see in your post v Davids post first here,

So, ultimately, I guess I'm saying, what is the goal for SC4Devotion?

madhatter106, on one hand that's a legitimate question.  In the context of the rest of your post, though, I'm a little bit concerned about the intention behind asking it.  I don't want to see this thread head too far off-topic, as it, after all, is about the community at large and not specifically about SC4D, but when you say a statement by the site's management: "the home for the serious player," "sticks in your craw," red flags start going up for me.

First off, let's make sure we understand the part of the fan community that we are talking about.  SC4D is a site where English is the common denominator language.  Community members from all over the world are welcome, but the ability to post and interact in English has always been one of the requirements here.  That's not necessarily fair, but until the entire world can agree on a universal language, setting up the site as an English-speaking one was a purposeful choice on jeronij's part.  Note that he is from Spain.  Colyn, another key player in the site's early days, is from South Africa.  Barby (barbyw) is from France.  So you necessarily have to read into the "serious player" statement the player's ability to utilize English, even if it is not the player's first language.  Thus, the statement says nothing about non-English SC4 sites, such as (not meaning to leave any of the other fine sites out- these are just examples) Sim City Plaza/Simforum.de, Tout Sim City, and Sim City Polska.  Those too I understand to be homes "for serious players."

That said, we turn to English-speaking sites.  Simtropolis and SimPeg immediately come to mind.  Both also provide, I am sure, a "home for serious players," because if nothing else I know community members who primarily post at one or the other and not here whom I consider some of the finest players and custom content creators out there.  I'm a member of all three sites, and I wish everyone would choose to be, but that's not the case.

Schisms and arguments and site wars are so yesterday.  Right now I know for a fact that the management of SC4D and the management of ST have a great working relationship.  The relationship with SimPeg has always been at best more neutral, but the absence of any controversy between sites about anything over the past couple of years and the large number of folks with MDs here at SC4D that use significant custom content developed at SimPeg ought to be taken for something.

So, back to why this site styles itself as "the home for the serious player."  Not to take anything away from any other SC4 fansite, but that is SC4D's mission- it's ultimate goal.  To make itself such a place.  It does that by providing a venue that is intended to attract the highest quality MDers, custom content creators, MODders, code engineers, and occasional mad scientist to work together and interact with a single-minded purpose- to continue advancing and improving SC4 in the absence of the original developer (Maxis/EA) doing so.  By and large, jeronij and his staff have been hugely successful at doing that for the past five years.  The focus here, unlike some other sites, has always remained purely SC4.  Nobody was distracted by Sim City: Societies, City Life or Cities XL.  The site's popularity is apparent in terms of both membership numbers and ongoing activity.  Many of its members and the teams that are hosted here are among the most productive custom content creators in the community. "Devotion" is far more here than just a part of the site's name, and has been from day one.

Note that, in order to be "the home for the serious player," SC4D does not have to seek to destroy, undermine or compete with any other site.  There has long been a strictly enforced policy here of discouraging any comment about any other fansite that was not both objectively constructive and contributed to harmony in the community overall.  That has, IMHO, worked well, too, and has been instrumental in allowing the current peaceful state of affairs in the SC4 community to be reached.

So, speaking for myself (I was officially an administrator here many years ago, but it belongs to jeronij and his staff to speak officially for the site) to be "the home of the serious player" is both SC4D's goal and its overarching purpose.  That is what the site does, and that is, as far as I'm concerned, what the site is.


David

Cut chop and snip out differnt parts of the responses will lose the whole explanation behind the meaning of the logo "Home of the Serious Player" I do believe you totally missed out so I will do my only actual cut snip of both post now here.....

So, back to why this site styles itself as "the home for the serious player."  Not to take anything away from any other SC4 fansite, but that is SC4D's mission- it's ultimate goal.  To make itself such a place.  It does that by providing a venue that is intended to attract the highest quality MDers, custom content creators, MODders, code engineers, and occasional mad scientist to work together and interact with a single-minded purpose- to continue advancing and improving SC4 in the absence of the original developer (Maxis/EA) doing so.  By and large, jeronij and his staff have been hugely successful at doing that for the past five years.  The focus here, unlike some other sites, has always remained purely SC4.  Nobody was distracted by Sim City: Societies, City Life or Cities XL.  The site's popularity is apparent in terms of both membership numbers and ongoing activity.  Many of its members and the teams that are hosted here are among the most productive custom content creators in the community. "Devotion" is far more here than just a part of the site's name, and has been from day one.

Yet none of those sites have a banner at the top saying they're a "home for serious players."  No one creates a website for a hobby with the intent of being a place for people who aren't serious about the subject.  So why the need for the phrase "home for the serious player?"

Listen - I know you're not all sitting in the clubhouse twirling your moustaches over expensive brandy and patting each other on the back saying you're the elitest of elite.  I know that's not the case.  I'm merely trying to point out that the banner phrase can be misconstrued or inferred as elitest or arrogant.  Again, I know that's not what your intent is.

Now just reading and not looking over the whole post how is all this mess gonna look to someone? Not well right? I do trust that we do agree on that cutting and snipping is not good and can be confusing... I do agree there has been a decline there is no doubt about it but here on SC4Devotions what we pride ourself on is being pure to SC4 itself and noting else... Anyone who takes the time to actually come on the forums will find that out we are very friendly and helpful here and will share our knowledge albeit it may take some time to get a response or nor may it be fully clear, someone will try their best to help out about our love for SC4...

Patrick

[Shadow Assassin]

I lurk a lot in SC4D nowadays, only really visiting the NAM forums and a couple of the MD forums.

Considering that the number of new MDs have dropped off over the last few years, and considering how intimidating the forum index can be, perhaps consolidating the entire MD section into a single forum might be an option to be considered - while it's only a small part of the index itself, it would make sense. And honestly... the SC4D Tools forum could do with consolidating too. There's just not enough traffic going through that section to justify having all those subforums inside subforums...

Though, all good things can and do come to an end... SC4 has had a good run. I doubt we'll ever see its golden age (2004-2005, after the BAT first came out) ever again, but I'm by no means saying that SC4 (and its associated fansites, like ST and SC4D) will die out entirely... it definitely won't, but there will be a point where consolidation of content becomes necessary.

[j-dub]

Personally, I seriously believe that without NAM, I would have stopped a long time ago. The still current and constant innovations and proving what was do-able, then previous considered before, interested me to keep coming back. Had the old ANT not been considered, who knows what could of happened, my guess is the route to the RHW in it's state now would be a mystery. I have had more detailed programs designed more for traffic engineers, but Sc4 seemed to combine a lot of elements together that were faster to do instead. I am not able to name another city builder where you can do so much rail and road and building custimization. All I know is, I don't think I'll see something like this ever again, that got this much attention and work done to it, where so many different nations did their own personal thing to it.

[DAB_City]

Personally, I seriously believe that without NAM, I would have stopped a long time ago. The still current and constant innovations and proving what was do-able, then previous considered before, interested me to keep coming back. Had the old ANT not been considered, who knows what could of happened, my guess is the route to the RHW in it's state now would be a mystery. I have had more detailed programs designed more for traffic engineers, but Sc4 seemed to combine a lot of elements together that were faster to do instead. I am not able to name another city builder where you can do so much rail and road and building custimization. All I know is, I don't think I'll see something like this ever again, that got this much attention and work done to it, where so many different nations did their own personal thing to it.

Personally, I would never have stopped playing, but the NAM has certainly made the play appeal a whole lot better. I haven't actually been playing for very long, but I have always preferred Simtropolis over SC4D. I don't suppose there would be a merger in the foreseeable future, but needing only one account for everything there, as well as ONE search box, are just some of the reasons why I prefer it. Sure, SC4D is good, but this is just my opinion. 

[catty]

...So, back to why this site styles itself as "the home for the serious player."  Not to take anything away from any other SC4 fansite, but that is SC4D's mission- it's ultimate goal...

I think I've always thought of the site as not so much "the home for the serious player" but "the home for the city engineer"

A city engineer is a multifaceted position that encompasses the planning and design of a city's current and future needs. A city engineer collaborates with businesses, the city government, the citizens and the transportation department to design the city's infrastructure.

[ldvger]

Well, I'll chime in, too, even tho I only read the first page of posts because, like everyone else, RL provides me with very little time for paying attention to gaming anymore.  And, I think, the issue of time is a huge factor in many people's lives these days. 

Let's face it, over the past 3-4 years pretty much all of our lives have been changed and/or interuppted by what turned out to be a major global economic recession.  Many of us lost our jobs and/or our homes.  And while most of us have now recovered, to some degree, a new (if less secure) life, things just aren't as good for us as they were before the meltdown.  Speaking only for myself, spending time playing games seems a waste of energy when I feel like that time would be better spent paying attention to getting my life back on track.  Yes, I am working again, after an unbelievable 3 years out of work, but I am now working part-time for minimum wage after 35 YEARS of being a full-time high wage white collar professional.  I lost my beautiful home, just about everything I own has been in storage for 3.5 years, and I am stuck sheltering in a tiny one-bedroom apartment with a good friend who agreed to take me in for 2-3 months.  Under the circumstances, playing games of any sort is just not high on my list of priorities.

There are, for me as well I am sure for others, other issues that come into play.  The game has begun to frustrate me quite a bit, as I don't know how to do what I want to do and what I can see other folks have done in spades.  My biggest and ongoing complaint is, as all who know me know, the lack of credible game water to plop water transitions.  Plop water has gotten pretty good but we still do not have a way to meld it seamlessly with game water and to me that is a HUGE issue.  My personal game play style is such that I enjoy creating landscapes more than human habitats, but if I could ever create a landscape I liked, perhaps I'd become interested once again in creating built environments.  But as many have already said, the learning curve for creating custom content for this game is quite steep and requires a LOT of time.  I have neither the desire, time, or patience to learn coding, batting, modding, and lotting to be able to create the visions of regions and cities dancing in my head.  Nor do I want to have to plop each individual transit piece or building from a drop down menu containing thousands of items or a plug-ins folder with tens of thousands of dependendcies.  Keeping all that custom content organized, updated, and non-conflicting is a task I am unwilling to take on on order to spend 1-2 hours actually playing the game.  Again, I just don't have the time for it. 

I don't know what the solution is, for me or for the game itself.  I can't help but think that Maxis or EA should cull through all the various fan websites like this one and grab all the best content and use it to create a new Super SimCity, one that allows us all to create the fantastic and gorgeous stuff we all know the game is capable of allowing us.  What we have now is unbelievable, but it's a huge hodge-podge that for me is impossible to manage.

And that makes me sad, because I love this game, have been playing since SimCity Classic, way back in 1992, 20 years now. 

Lora/LD

[kdog3055]

I am a newcomer to this site. I do a lot of reading to learn what is going on in the community. There are probably a lot of people like me, who prefer to look and listen to the Masters of the Game. I have had mine for several years and did not know about this site, or all of the brilliant developers here who breathe new life into the game. This site has given me a great deal of material to work with, and I have not scratched the surface in terms of all of the options available. To that end, there are many like myself who have been flooded with ideas each time we visit and find a new BAT or MOD. Long live SC4 Devotion and all who contribute to the delight of many grateful fans! http://sc4devotion.com/forums/Smileys/JasonSmilies/appl.gif

[NCGAIO]

Just my 10 cents on the issue ... I'm a fan of the game since launch and how many witnessed the selfless devotion of many content creators, programmers, analysts and other users who have contributed to keep alive the game even decade after its release. Maybe the best explanation is this article ..

  ( link also Simtropolis )   http://www.squidoo.com/simcity4

Now regarding the Devotion, I know most if not almost all the sites content for SimCity and this is undoubtedly the most information about the technical aspect of the game, but this obviously is not for everyone. The existence of separate LEX with his responsible position to analyze and approve the material for download but does not favor the search for news of this as in other forums. Of course they will say that many of these users are just out of curiosity or just in search of additions to your game but users are posting.

Some of these other forums has led to a more social communities like the one that attracts most visitors though it causes the massive accumulation of messages making it very difficult to find what interests as well as view great plugins that are lost in a sea of other "things" ..

Anyway I think it is necessarily also the trade issue because we all know that Web sites are not free and its traffic volume is logically the engine behind the advertising sold.

How can the quality without giving up much and always a difficult question to be equalized so only administrators can judge what is best ...

But hopefully I will still log in devotion for a long time.

[Connor]

Nobody has posted here for a while but I felt the need to give some input. I've never been a particularly regular poster, but I want to give my view.

Firstly, SC4 is getting older - it's only natural that people will stop playing it. There will always be a core of players who keep playing, and there will always be newcomers, but I would hazard a guess that the number of newcomers to SC4 is probably less than the number of people who have stopped playing. It is inevitable that the SC4 community will get smaller and smaller over time, but I really do hope that there is something we can do keep the community going and keep it fresh and active, with posters old and new. Whether that is possible or not, I am undecided.

Secondly, my personal involvement with SC4 is becoming rather sporadic. I always have, and probably always will drift in and out of the game. I do enjoy SC4, but I often go months at a time without playing the game or visiting SC4D. I raise this issue because I'm probably not the only person who has a tendency to drift in and out. I've never been able to identify why this happens, but I'm becoming rather concerned by the fact that a couple of years ago I would play for a month or so and then have a couple of weeks without playing, but now I'm at the stage where I play the game for a couple of weeks, and then don't play for several months. Before writing this post, I was catching up with what I had missed in several threads, and as I looked through some of my favorite MDs I realized that I hadn't visited the site since December, and that I hadn't actually played the game since the end of summer in late August or early September. The point is that I believe myself and many other members only experience short bursts of enthusiasm for SC4 and SC4D, whereas a thriving community needs members who are constantly involved and interested.

I agree with others that the layout of the site could be holding it back. There are so many forum categories and sub-categories etc that it is incredibly difficult to find your way around - I cannot imagine how a newcomer feels when they register and then are confronted with this huge and bizarre forum structure. This is not a criticism of the site, because the vast range of SC4-related topics is what makes it so great, but a simplified layout and structure could possibly help.

Another point others are making is how difficult it would be for a newcomer to understand acronyms and to understand how to make custom content. The reason people still play SC4, and the reason why SC4D and other sites still exist is because of the wide range of custom content and because the content is always growing. The community is so intelligent, creative and innovative that it moves at a really fast pace, and for a newcomer to go from vanilla to being a lotter/BATer/Modder must be virtually impossible considering how much knowledge would be needed, and there is perhaps a lack of simple and clear tutorials (I'm not criticizing anybody here by the way). Just to prove my point, if I don't visit the site for a month or so, I find that there is always so much that I have missed, and it is difficult to try and catch up with the new content, so it must be impossible for somebody who has never visited the site.

Significantly, the fact remains that SC4D is definitely the best site for anybody who enjoys playing SC4 and using or developing custom content. Simtropolis is much more off-topic and features other games, which I see as a disadvantage to anybody who only plays SC4 and wants to enhance their gameplay. However, the SC4D community is clearly in decline, based on the statistics and the discussion that took place on 3RR, which is where I found the link to this thread. Making improvements to the site and improving the accessibility to new players could have some effect, but I fear that the main cause of this decline is the fact that SC4 is getting older and less and less people are playing. The heavy focus on SC4 makes SC4D the best site, but also means it is more vulnerable than other, more 'diversified' sites where there is more off-topic and casual discussion.

Furthermore, in 3RR there were many posts in early January alluding to a  recent 'sudden' decline in activity on this forum. This may be a little controversial, and please do not take this as a criticism, but does the recent 'sudden' decline in activity coincide with when the site was re-designed and the new forum rules/restrictions were put in place? It's something I remember thinking about when the changes first happened.

In September, I start a degree in town planning, and I'm not sure whether that will re-ignite my interest in the game or whether it will sap away all my enthusiasm, but I really do hope it is the former and not the latter. I intend from now on to put in a great effort to be more active on the game and this site, but RL and sporadic interest will probably take its toll on me. I really hope that the community can keep going, but I think there will have to be some degree of evolution. In its current form, I just don't think that this site can exist much longer. Sticking with the original principles behind the site is paramount, but it has to supply a demand, and it seems that the demand for this site is possibly showing signs of a decline.

Now that I've come to the end of this post, I really don't know how to finish it. I've raised my main concerns with the site, and discussed what I think could be causing the decline, but I'm not really able to offer any solutions. It could be that we're seeing a temporary lull and things will pick up again, but I've been absent recently so I'm not entirely sure what the situation is. This a great game, a great site and a great community, and I hope that will continue, and I offer my sincere thanks to all those who have taken this game and community to where it is today.

[Tarkus]

Connor, thanks for the thoughtful post and feedback on the future of SC4D, SC4 and its community.

There are so many forum categories and sub-categories etc that it is incredibly difficult to find your way around - I cannot imagine how a newcomer feels when they register and then are confronted with this huge and bizarre forum structure. This is not a criticism of the site, because the vast range of SC4-related topics is what makes it so great, but a simplified layout and structure could possibly help.

Personally, I'd tend to agree some of your points in this quote from your post--I wouldn't call it bizarre per se (I've seen much, much weirder layouts), but huge, yes.  If someone is using the internet in general as a baseline, this is probably about average (maybe slightly above), but if one is using Simtropolis as a baseline (which many folks here do), then yes, it's a good bit larger structure.  There's plenty of times where a newcomer has made a post way down in one of the "Help" boards about a NAM item, but no one (including myself) has seen it until a good while after the fact because it's not in an area of the forums we'd think to look for it (the NAM Place board). 

I don't think the complexity of the layout is necessary the reason for any perception of a decline, or an obstacle that can't be overcome by a new member, but I think discussing layout has merit, and some re-arrangement could be beneficial in a more general sense.

I think the Team and MD areas do generally seem to work, though there might be some tweaking there (namely merging Place/Creation boards, as they kind of end up serving the same purpose).  There are some other spots, particularly the whole realm below there with all the myriad of generic "Help" and "Tutorial" boards that I personally feel we, the site staff, should discuss.

Another point others are making is how difficult it would be for a newcomer to understand acronyms and to understand how to make custom content. The reason people still play SC4, and the reason why SC4D and other sites still exist is because of the wide range of custom content and because the content is always growing. The community is so intelligent, creative and innovative that it moves at a really fast pace, and for a newcomer to go from vanilla to being a lotter/BATer/Modder must be virtually impossible considering how much knowledge would be needed, and there is perhaps a lack of simple and clear tutorials (I'm not criticizing anybody here by the way). Just to prove my point, if I don't visit the site for a month or so, I find that there is always so much that I have missed, and it is difficult to try and catch up with the new content, so it must be impossible for somebody who has never visited the site.

And perhaps even more confusingly to us content creators, we have instances where folks (including newcomers) are saying there's an overload, but then those same folks are simultaneously requesting new content.  Speaking as a content developer, this is quite bewildering.

Furthermore, in 3RR there were many posts in early January alluding to a  recent 'sudden' decline in activity on this forum. This may be a little controversial, and please do not take this as a criticism, but does the recent 'sudden' decline in activity coincide with when the site was re-designed and the new forum rules/restrictions were put in place? It's something I remember thinking about when the changes first happened.

The changes happened at the end of June/beginning of July.  There was a brief dip in July, but that's mainly because the site was actually down for several days for the upgrade, and because the domain registrar was taking their sweet time propagating the DNS.  The number of new members also dropped after that point, but in the last couple months before the upgrade, we were having 1-2 spammers registering per hour, inflating the numbers.  The forum software upgrade beefed up security and it kept the spammers from even being able to register for some time.  The actual number of posts and number of members online started to increase back up in the months after that, with the 2011 activity really peaking in September and October (after the release of NAM Version 30).

Interestingly, though, looking over the forum stats, the start of 2012 has been much better than most of 2011 (especially November/December).  I think the return to activity by prominent community members and content developers like David (dedgren) and buddybud has helped that.  February seems to be going decently.

I think really, going over the general trends, the thing that would create the biggest surge of activity would be the release of more content.  I'd imagine a NAM release would probably bring us back to 2009 levels pretty quickly.  But the trick is sustaining that.  It is, to a large degree, a momentum thing.  The returns I mentioned definitely build momentum up, and hopefully, we can keep that going through the rest of the year.

-Alex

[gutterclub]

I am a regular at ST and sometimes post here, but I mainly discuss the BATing side of things. I've noticed a couple of things recently which I shall discuss.

1. The return of old BAters, I find it hard to buy into anything related to the community dying when after a good 3-4 years old BATers like Sparky the Penguin and Gary Reggae pop up sating they are batting again, like mentioned before I think it's just a case of RL taking hold.

2. The quality of BATS, love him or hate him and whether he continues to be aprt fo the community or not I think Simfox has left an absolute wonderful tool in BAT4MAX. I know I lot of people do not embrace the modern BATs and people argue they stand out too much and in my opinion rightly so, why settle for less when you can eventually fill a City of beautifuly rendered life like models. So the quality of BATS has gone up which in my opinion is better and will make the community stronger. Quality not quantity is the key...

[whatevermind]

In September, I start a degree in town planning, and I'm not sure...

My own studies in urban planning transformed how I played SC4.  Not only was I testing what I was learning about planning in SC4 (an excellent sandbox when you don't have a real world city at your disposal  ), but I found I was building far more realistic and vibrant cities.  And I was never a haphazard city builder to begin with, my plans simply took on a whole new dimension, and just as amazingly, SC4 was delicate and intricate and powerful enough to respond.

[City Builder]

It's just the nature of how it works.

• People get older, have families move on.
  
• EA has taken so long to (reportedly) come out with SC5 that many have given up waiting around.
  
• People are simply "talked out" on Simcity 4 and don't have as much to say anymore.
  
  Most sites like this one that offer downloadable material usually has more activity in the download area than they do in the forums.  I have a site devoted to Minecraft that has over 110,000 members that grew from Nov 2010 until now very fast, the largest activity that we see is people visiting the part of our forums that offer downloadable schematics for the game.  While we have a lot of posts, it's only those that post their downloadable content and maybe a couple comments on them.
  
  It's simply the way that things work and if Simcity 5 truly is in the works, and it allows user created content, then things will pick up here too I'm willing to bet.

[NCGAIO]

... It's simply the way that things work and if Simcity 5 truly is in the works, and it allows user created content, then things will pick up here too I'm willing to bet.

Do not know where people repeat this information that the new game will be modifiable in the same way for SC4. Nowhere in the AMA as widely disseminated there is an affirmative answer in this regard on the contrary gave several evasive.

I think I can say with certainty that the circumstances that resulted in the way this game was produced .. never be repeated today.

There is no disagreement that the current interest in the game to complete a decade is not the same and that the level of participation tends to decrease without a change in forum posts, but I do not believe that the interest of those who seek the modification techniques and new discoveries in SC4 will have something like the new Simcity at least with a philosophy of gratuity. The portion of the DLC should be part of the business plan of any current game and I doubt very much that EA give it go.

Not to mention the online mode that will be pushed with the new game ... so it was possible to understand so far ... demonstrating that changes the level of the land, maritime or land road structures, animations etc ... should be much less flexible in the universe of GlassBox.

[City Builder]

... It's simply the way that things work and if Simcity 5 truly is in the works, and it allows user created content, then things will pick up here too I'm willing to bet.

Do not know where people repeat this information that the new game will be modifiable in the same way for SC4.

I don't know why you are quoting the line from my post, nowhere do I say that it WILL allow the kind of modding that was for SC4.  I say, IF it's truly in the works (which we now know for certain) and if it allows ucc, bla bla bla

However, while w edon't know if it will allow the kind of modding that SC4 allowed, according to an article, it will allow modding.  We just don't know to what extent.

[vortext]

However, while we don't know if it will allow the kind of modding that SC4 allowed, according to an article, it will allow modding.  We just don't know to what extent.

Here's the article.

[Ricky112233]

I have to agree with pretty much everything that is being said here about SC4D, the Community and SC4 alike.

I definitely think that there are more members switching over from posting to lurking.
(I for one, joined this site in 2009, and I haven't even posted for more than 60 times!)

It may be because people don't know what to post or because people are too busy to post and instead, opt to lurk, simply because it's less time consuming! (Heck, it may be even both!)

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Besides playing SC4, I also play Flight Simulator X (FSX), which had caused the same problem for Flight Simulator 2004 (FSX came out in 2006, FS2004 came out, coincidentally, in 2004!)
Because FSX was an "improvement" and "newer", people lost interest in FS2004, however, the fs2004-community is still flourishing, just as much as the fsx-community! Why? Because both games are also 'moddable'. (you can download new planes, improved and more realistic airports, new airline repaint and even replace the default traffic with realistic traffic) This has enhanced both Flight Sims, and nowadays, the difference between the two sims is hardly recognizable for a beginner new to the Flight Sim world...

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What I'm trying to say here ^(in the Off-topic section above)^, is that as long as people keep creating custom content, the SC4 community will continue to flourish!

I do agree though, that it's getting harder and harder for beginners who want to BAT to actually realize their 'BATing dreams'.

Also, LOTS of my friends who have visited me at least one or twice before and who have seen me play SC4, asked where I got the game and if it's still for sale. It's because they saw someone play the game, that they had decided to buy it themselves, not only that, (and I'm not trying to be selfish here or anything) but I'll also tell them that they can find cool websites on the web where they can download extra buildings, automata, and much, much more! (And I've always listed the two most famous community sites, SC4D and ST as great examples of such websites!) And by the time I've told them about the websites, I'll see them running toward the nearest electronic store to buy SC4!

Now ALL my friends have the game, girl and boy alike, and they also have accounts on SC4D and ST, however, they don't post and they don't look in the forums a lot, they're just here for the downloads, so don't go thinking that the Community is gonna die off, because there are a lot of people using SC4D, we're just not aware of it, because they're either chronic lurkers or just come here to download plugins.

I think that is a MAJOR reason why it looks so 'dead' at times!

A chronic lurker

-Ricky

[WC_EEND]

You raise a few very good points Ricky and have a very mature view on things for your age.
Also, with regards to the lurking thing: My IT teacher at college last week said that over 70% of registered forum members are lurkers. The ones that post are the so-called "vocal minority".

Xander

[buncheesy]

Well for the 4th time in 8 years i am back searching the SC4 forums (3rd time SC4D) and downloading like mad.  There nothing else out there (yet! ie SC5?) that can give that city building fix and has such endless variety of custom content - 10 something years worth!!!

This is my first post this time round.  Why?  To busy downloading 10+ years worth of experience and brushing up on my knowledge reading 10+ years worth of forums.

I have bought the lex disk and thrown a little money into this site.  As long as custom content is available and people are enjoying the game and supporting the site I hope those who host an maintain it can keep ongoing.  Even if SC5 is as good as its likely to be it will be years before it has the sort of backlogg of mods SC4 has!