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Author Topic: TE Lots, Transit Switches, and You :)  (Read 47630 times)

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Offline z

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Re: TE Lots, Transit Switches, and You :)
« Reply #40 on: September 12, 2008, 05:12:43 AM »
My hat's off to you, RippleJet - that's a beautifully and precisely designed, executed, and documented experiment, from start to finish.  For me, the math I did was completely conclusive, and the testing I did of cities in the aggregate, complete with commute time graphs that showed the same pattern that yours did, supported those conclusions entirely.  But there's nothing like a highly controlled test case, such as the one you used, to make something completely clear.  I am very grateful to you, and I'm sure that what you've done will be of help to all those who work with TE lots.

As for the Transit Switch Entry Cost, basing it on pedestrian speed would seem to work for roadside transit stations.  For TE Lots, as you found, it needs to be set much lower.  For RTMT, through experimentation Cogeo found that a value of 0.02 worked best for these lots; it essentially made them have no effect on commute time for cars.  It turns out that this value translates to something very close to the speed of cars through the lots in the current simulators.  The value you used for Transit Switch Entry Cost essentially does the same thing, adjusted for the lower speed of cars in the vanilla simulator.  But Transit Switch Entry Cost needs to be based on the type of transit lot and the travel type speeds, as your experiment so clearly showed; no single value is best for all cases.

As for the building query numbers, what you say makes perfect sense, and I would like to edit my post to reflect what you have shown.  What I stated in my post was based on my tests, but they were clearly only a subset of the tests you ran, which showed a more complete picture.  So one final question before I edit this post:  Is there a way to determine the actual occupancy of a particular building?

Once again, thanks for all the work you did here, which will be quite beneficial to many.

Offline JoeST

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Re: TE Lots, Transit Switches, and You :)
« Reply #41 on: September 12, 2008, 05:27:53 AM »
z: the actual number of ocupants is calculated by the number of people in the transit query. I think

Joe

EDIT: didn't read Tage's post properly, silly me. its about 40-60% as Diggis states below.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2008, 05:33:31 AM by JoeST »
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Offline Diggis

Re: TE Lots, Transit Switches, and You :)
« Reply #42 on: September 12, 2008, 05:30:44 AM »
z: the actual number of ocupants is calculated by the number of people in the transit query. I think

Joe

Nope, from what I got from Tage's post thats 40 - 60% of the total depending on life expectancy.  The rest are babies or retirees.

Offline RippleJet

Re: TE Lots, Transit Switches, and You :)
« Reply #43 on: September 12, 2008, 05:50:33 AM »
So one final question before I edit this post:  Is there a way to determine the actual occupancy of a particular building?

As Joe and Shaun already pointed out, no... :(
The route query shows the workforce, but also this number is a rounded integer.
And the total occupancy of that house then depends on the life expectancy in it
(which we also cannot know what it is).

Besides, I'm pretty sure the game calculates all residents as floats, not integers.
Thus, there are probably some fractional inhabitants in all buildings... ::)


The rest are babies or retirees.

And those modding SimCity at work and testing all through the night... :D
« Last Edit: September 12, 2008, 05:55:17 AM by RippleJet »

Offline Crissa

Re: TE Lots, Transit Switches, and You :)
« Reply #44 on: January 17, 2009, 01:19:53 AM »
Still leaves me wondering why the bus routes with RTMT run through the lots instead of away from the lot.  If they went away from the lot to other lots, it'd make sense, but for some reason, busses load up people and then go in the direction the people came from even when there's no connecting roads let alone bus stops in that direction.

Busses seem to require a continuous loop past a bus stop (or through a RTMT lot), and then follow the road making no turns unless it has no other choice.  Also, people seem to only get onto busses that arrive past the stop the first time - so if more than one bus loops past, or a bus loops past more than once they get on the first time, ride to the end to the street, then back past the bus stop.

In the real world, this would mean people would be getting on and off the bus every two blocks (a minimum required by the american disabilities act), basically a second network atop the first. But that doesn't happen in SC.

Which leaves me wondering how to make busses work at all in SC.  The busses seem to take no turns, which mean of it would be shorter to turn left to get to the next bus stop, they just don't do that, the busses never seem to optimize their loops.

-Crissa

Offline z

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Re: TE Lots, Transit Switches, and You :)
« Reply #45 on: January 17, 2009, 02:18:40 AM »
Are you talking about the automata (the animated buses), or the actual bus routes?  It sounds like the former, because in actuality, there are no buses in SC4 (or any other type of vehicles, for that matter).  When a pedestrian Sim reaches a bus stop, he or she just starts acting like a single-passenger bus until the destination bus stop is reached, whereupon the Sim starts acting like a pedestrian again.  There are no buses loading up people, and there are no buses driving by.  And once a Sim gets on a bus, there are no stops until the destination bus stop is reached.

I've also seen buses make optional turns all the time; if they didn't, there'd be something seriously wrong with the traffic simulator.  If you can demonstrate what you're desribing with actual bus routes using the route query tool, please post a picture.  Thanks!
« Last Edit: January 17, 2009, 02:31:41 AM by z »

Offline djvandrake

Re: TE Lots, Transit Switches, and You :)
« Reply #46 on: August 17, 2009, 12:46:54 PM »
Sorry for reviving a discussion that's been quiet for 6 months, but I just read this entire thread and I'm unclear on a few things that I think could have a big impact.  This thread is very enlightening and I'm grateful to those who have contributed so much effort. On to the question.

From the discussion, I gather that having a single lot be enabled for multiple types of a transit switch is bad, true statement?  And this is due to the propensity of pedestrians using the lot as a short cut, forcing you to set the transit switch cost too high for the higher speed types of transit (i.e. HSR or monorail).  Since only one cost can be assigned, then there's no way to make a station efficient for high speed rail and prevent pedestrian shortcuts.  So why does it matter if a ped uses the station as a shortcut?  How would this be a large negative to their pathfinding?  If I locate my station in an area where pedestrain shortcuts is not a big issue, then is there any reason why I can't make a large station have switches for HSR, Bus, and Subway?    I have seen lots like this before and they seem like such a boon to efficiency, yet I've not had the opportunity to test them out.

What I have done is created a custom lot for a large HSR station.  It has a high passenger capacity (70,000) served by 4 lines.  The lot is 8 x 14 width to length.  Having the lot be transit enabled for rail traffic only, the transit switch cost would be essentially zero based on the speed of the rail.  Where I run into huge problems is serving the sims after they leave the station.  I can ring the station with bus stops, and they all go to the closest two stations and completely overwhelm them causing a bottleneck. (Closest to the end of the station where the trains enter, in this case the west side (long axis) and the bus stops are on the nort and south of the 8 tile width).  I've built a smallish test region where I have two cities that are served only by HSR.  7,000 sims commute into the station and either walk or take the bus once leaving the station, but again they all choose the bus-stops at the nearst point and overwhelm it.

Would it not make much more sense to transit switch enable my large station for HSR, AND for Bus AND for Subway with all the switches having the same capacity?  This way all the traffic that enters the station via the HSR isn't trying to leave the station via two small bus stops?  And if this station is located such that through traffic not related to those transit switches would be minimal, then would it not be best to set the transit entry cost based on the speed of the buses?

Thank you.

Edit:  http://sc4devotion.com/csxlex/lex_filedesc.php?lotGET=1610 Here is a link to a multi switch type of station available on the LEX like I referred to above.  Mine is essentailly the same.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2009, 12:55:20 PM by djvandrake »

Offline z

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Re: TE Lots, Transit Switches, and You :)
« Reply #47 on: August 18, 2009, 05:47:49 AM »
From the discussion, I gather that having a single lot be enabled for multiple types of a transit switch is bad, true statement?

Not really.  Although Mott initially said something along these lines, it has become clear in the intervening time that these transit switches are not so much "bad" as rather buggy and difficult to work with.  The game was not designed with them in mind.  But they can be made to work properly; for example, RTMT uses a lot of them.

Quote
  And this is due to the propensity of pedestrians using the lot as a short cut, forcing you to set the transit switch cost too high for the higher speed types of transit (i.e. HSR or monorail).  Since only one cost can be assigned, then there's no way to make a station efficient for high speed rail and prevent pedestrian shortcuts.

Shortcutting is one problem, but it's not really all that serious if the transit switch entry cost is set properly; in the case you mention, it should be set to .96/speed, where "speed" is the speed of the HSR or monorail.  The pedestrians may move through the station too fast, but this does not have a real effect on game play, especially in Simulator Z.

Quote
  So why does it matter if a ped uses the station as a shortcut?  How would this be a large negative to their pathfinding?

For traffic simulators other than Simulator Z, the commute time limit is set low enough so that this shortcutting can throw off various pathfinding calculations in a way that can have some effect on the overall game play.  Nevertheless, no one has ever shown that these differences are significant.

Quote
  If I locate my station in an area where pedestrain shortcuts is not a big issue, then is there any reason why I can't make a large station have switches for HSR, Bus, and Subway?    I have seen lots like this before and they seem like such a boon to efficiency, yet I've not had the opportunity to test them out.

No, you should have no real problems.  In fact, I think that this is definitely the way to go.  Transit switch points are buggy, though; ones that look like they should work often don't, especially the more complex ones.  I suggest that you look at the transit switch points in RTMT V3.60 for guidance when this version is released.  And personally, I wouldn't worry about the pedestrian shortcuts in any case, as long as you set the transit switch entry cost as I described above.

Quote
What I have done is created a custom lot for a large HSR station.  It has a high passenger capacity (70,000) served by 4 lines.  The lot is 8 x 14 width to length.  Having the lot be transit enabled for rail traffic only, the transit switch cost would be essentially zero based on the speed of the rail.  Where I run into huge problems is serving the sims after they leave the station.  I can ring the station with bus stops, and they all go to the closest two stations and completely overwhelm them causing a bottleneck. (Closest to the end of the station where the trains enter, in this case the west side (long axis) and the bus stops are on the nort and south of the 8 tile width).  I've built a smallish test region where I have two cities that are served only by HSR.  7,000 sims commute into the station and either walk or take the bus once leaving the station, but again they all choose the bus-stops at the nearst point and overwhelm it.

I can see where this would be a problem.  Basically, your pedestrians are traveling at monorail speed, even if you take my suggestion about the TSEC.  Having multiple bus stops around the station complicates things considerably; there's no easy way to get that right.

Quote
Would it not make much more sense to transit switch enable my large station for HSR, AND for Bus AND for Subway with all the switches having the same capacity?  This way all the traffic that enters the station via the HSR isn't trying to leave the station via two small bus stops?  And if this station is located such that through traffic not related to those transit switches would be minimal, then would it not be best to set the transit entry cost based on the speed of the buses?

Yes, you're exactly right with the first part of your solution.  However, there's only one transit switch point per station, and only one capacity.  The capacity of 70,000 that you chose should be about right for such a station.  But it's important, especially with monorails, that the TSEC be set according to their speed.  Otherwise, you'll see a real dropoff in their usage.  True, this TSEC is too high for buses, but it's only for a few squares, and it should have no ill effects.

Offline djvandrake

Re: TE Lots, Transit Switches, and You :)
« Reply #48 on: August 18, 2009, 12:08:43 PM »
Thank you Z for your reply and advice.  Much appreciated.  I did further testing with my station and enabled it for bus transit switch and that made a huge difference.  Sims now go to all 4 corners to catch a bus depending on where their eventual job destination is, and that alleviated a lot of the traffic bottleneck.  Subway didn't work well at all, and I may separate that out _it also caused my menu to malfunction so I couldn't see usage numbers  &ops).  I've got the station serving 18,000 now, and it flows smoothly serving as a bus station too.

Speaking of RTMT V3.60 that you mentioned.....Is there an anticipated release date?  I just started using them in my cities after reading this thread and they're wonderful.  &apls  I'm still not clear if the capacity numbers I see include the cars that pass through the lot as well as the users of the buses. But, from query of the commute path to nearby employment, I can see the station is getting a good deal of use.  I'm now a big fan of these RTMT stations.

Offline z

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Re: TE Lots, Transit Switches, and You :)
« Reply #49 on: August 20, 2009, 04:28:42 AM »
Thank you Z for your reply and advice.  Much appreciated.

You're welcome!

Quote
Subway didn't work well at all, and I may separate that out _it also caused my menu to malfunction so I couldn't see usage numbers  &ops).  I've got the station serving 18,000 now, and it flows smoothly serving as a bus station too.

Subways are by far the most difficult parts of transit switch points to get right - they're notoriously buggy.  If that's your only problem, I can give you a file with a set of transit switch points that will work for your station.  But I don't understand what you mean by your menu malfunction.  Are you talking about the queries?  What exactly did you do here?

Quote
Speaking of RTMT V3.60 that you mentioned.....Is there an anticipated release date?  I just started using them in my cities after reading this thread and they're wonderful.  &apls  I'm still not clear if the capacity numbers I see include the cars that pass through the lot as well as the users of the buses. But, from query of the commute path to nearby employment, I can see the station is getting a good deal of use.  I'm now a big fan of these RTMT stations.

I'm glad you like RTMT!  There is no release date for V3.60 as such - release dates are illegal in SC4.  ;D  However, I think it's safe to say that you'll see it sometime next month.  And the capacity and usage numbers include everything passing through the lot.

Offline djvandrake

Re: TE Lots, Transit Switches, and You :)
« Reply #50 on: August 20, 2009, 12:14:01 PM »

Subways are by far the most difficult parts of transit switch points to get right - they're notoriously buggy.  If that's your only problem, I can give you a file with a set of transit switch points that will work for your station.  But I don't understand what you mean by your menu malfunction.  Are you talking about the queries?  What exactly did you do here?


Yes, I am referring to the queries.  I'm not experienced enough yet to understand how I broke it or how to fix it.  %confuso  I've now manged to do the same thing with my RTMT lots.  :-[  I love the functionality of them, but I'm really picky about appearance, and the little blue bus shelter just didn't do at all.  (I know size and space is a real issue for them) I edited all the lots in LE and put in the bus shelter that I've used throughout my urban areas (a nice blue and silver glass shelter) and after doing so my query menus don't work at all.  When I query the lots I get the sound effect and something generic but the custom menu for RTMT that shows usage isn't there.  I use the RH drive, no custom textures version of the lots with NAM simulator Z. ( :thumbsup:)

I would be very interested in those subway transit switch points too.   I'm debating making a few custom type super subway stations that can handle the traffic from the station (like a 1 x 4 with multiple stairs and such) since I've now become hopelessly addicted to the lot editor.  ::)

Thanks again!  ;D

Quote
I'm glad you like RTMT!  There is no release date for V3.60 as such - release dates are illegal in SC4.  ;D  However, I think it's safe to say that you'll see it sometime next month.  And the capacity and usage numbers include everything passing through the lot.

Looking forward to it!!!

Offline z

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Re: TE Lots, Transit Switches, and You :)
« Reply #51 on: August 20, 2009, 04:12:21 PM »
The queries are controlled by the property "Query exemplar GUID" in the exemplar, which either points to a standard Maxis query, or to a custom query, which would exist in the form of a "UI" subfile somewhere, along with one or more associated PNG files.  It's in this area that you must have messed something up.

Following is the type of switch point that you'll need, taken from an RTMT station.  The one change you'll have to make to the transit switch point is to change all occurrences of "el train" to "monorail," but then everything should work.

Transit Switch Point   0xE90E25A1   Uint8   76   Outside-to-Inside,North+South,Drive Car,Drive Car,Inside-to-Outside,North+South,Drive Car,Drive Car,Outside-to-Inside,North+South,Ride Bus,Ride Bus,Inside-to-Outside,North+South,Ride Bus,Ride Bus,Outside-to-Inside,North+South,Freight Truck,Freight Truck,Inside-to-Outside,North+South,Freight Truck,Freight Truck,Outside-to-Inside,North+South,Ride El Train,Ride El Train,Inside-to-Outside,North+South,Ride El Train,Ride El Train,Outside-to-Inside,All Sides,Walk,Walk,Outside-to-Inside,North+South,Ride Bus,Walk,Inside-to-Outside,All Sides,Ride Subway,Walk,Outside-to-Inside,All Sides,Walk,Ride Subway,Inside-to-Outside,North+South,Walk,Ride Bus,Outside-to-Inside,All Sides,Walk,Walk,Inside-to-Outside,All Sides,Walk,Walk,Outside-to-Inside,All Sides,Ride El Train,Walk,Inside-to-Outside,All Sides,Walk,Ride El Train,Inside-to-Outside,All Sides,Walk,Ride Subway,Outside-to-Inside,All Sides,Ride Subway,Ride El Train   

Offline djvandrake

Re: TE Lots, Transit Switches, and You :)
« Reply #52 on: August 20, 2009, 08:21:13 PM »
Wow!  That was a bit more that I expected, and very glad to have expert advice.  Thanks again Z.  :thumbsup:

Offline z

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Re: TE Lots, Transit Switches, and You :)
« Reply #53 on: August 21, 2009, 12:28:58 AM »
You're welcome!  That's just what you get when you use the Reader's "Copy all properties to clipboard" function.  But I'm so used to copying switch points around for RTMT stations that I forgot to remove the through road traffic switches for you.  Here's the corrected switch point (you still need to make the substitution I mentioned above):

Transit Switch Point   0xE90E25A1   Uint8   76   Outside-to-Inside,North+South,Ride El Train,Ride El Train,Inside-to-Outside,North+South,Ride El Train,Ride El Train,Outside-to-Inside,All Sides,Walk,Walk,Outside-to-Inside,North+South,Ride Bus,Walk,Inside-to-Outside,All Sides,Ride Subway,Walk,Outside-to-Inside,All Sides,Walk,Ride Subway,Inside-to-Outside,North+South,Walk,Ride Bus,Outside-to-Inside,All Sides,Walk,Walk,Inside-to-Outside,All Sides,Walk,Walk,Outside-to-Inside,All Sides,Ride El Train,Walk,Inside-to-Outside,All Sides,Walk,Ride El Train,Inside-to-Outside,All Sides,Walk,Ride Subway,Outside-to-Inside,All Sides,Ride Subway,Ride El Train

Offline b22rian

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Re: TE Lots, Transit Switches, and You :)
« Reply #54 on: September 20, 2010, 06:57:15 PM »
I just wanted to say, that I read this thread for about the 10 th time..
And its my favorite thread in all of Sim devotion..

I would like to belatedly thank all those great people in our community who contributed to this thread..

And My special thanks go out to Z (Steve) and Mott, for creating with much time , patience and hard work..,
some of the best postings that have ever been posted on devotion . And in there painstaking efforts to make one
of the the complex areas in our game understandable for all of us  &apls

Thanks much , Brian

Offline Wiimeiser

Re: TE Lots, Transit Switches, and You :)
« Reply #55 on: January 12, 2011, 03:56:24 AM »

1) I do admit to not having fully investigated the hover problem with TE-Lots -
how-some-ever I have TE'd-Lots that don't have that problem -
Suggesting to me that there is a way to tie lots and RULs/SC4paths together,
or otherwise overcome the hover-problem.  (Maybe beyond the scope of this thread -)
TE-ing a lot contains two parts - the Transit Overlay (for want of a better description)
and the Transit Switch properties.


I wonder if EA knows about this issue?
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Offline Tarkus

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Re: TE Lots, Transit Switches, and You :)
« Reply #56 on: January 12, 2011, 02:40:08 PM »
I wonder if EA knows about this issue?

They do.  Paul Pedriana (lead programmer for SC4) even posted about it over at ST a few years back.

-Alex

Offline Wiimeiser

Re: TE Lots, Transit Switches, and You :)
« Reply #57 on: January 13, 2011, 04:37:02 PM »
Really? Can you point me to that particular post?
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