Forum Software Proposal

[ChiefZDN]

Hello,

SMF isn't active as before again. This is not ideal since many SMF forums are still operation and new exploits might be found (although there's no evidence, this is why I use 'might be' instead). Also, the ultimate 2.1 version isn't going released, although there are many changes such as responsive design and more. So, to fix this issue, I'll propose to change the forum software. There are many forum software are there, but many of them aren't high quality, especially for free. Few of them is Discourse and NodeBB. Discourse is simple but because of their unique UI, users will need adaptation. NodeBB in other hand, is more traditional, faster but not simple as Discourse. I can't say too much because I can't experience their admin panel.

But, they share similarity, they are secure as long as you read how to secure them.

Please send your response as reply.

Thank you.

[Tarkus]

SMF is still in active development, and the most recent update (which we don't have at the moment, due to some technical issues we hope to resolve) is from late 2017, not mid 2017.  We have no plans to switch away from SMF, especially as the migration process can be a rather delicate operation.  We don't wish to meet the same sad fate (mangled database) as our colleagues at the former SimPeg.

-Alex

[ChiefZDN]

SMF is still in active development, and the most recent update (which we don't have at the moment, due to some technical issues we hope to resolve) is from late 2017, not mid 2017.  We have no plans to switch away from SMF, especially as the migration process can be a rather delicate operation.  We don't wish to meet the same sad fate (mangled database) as our colleagues at the former SimPeg.

-Alex

There is a good update strategy: create new instance of the site with new software then migrate the data to the new server and if works, change the DNS of sc4devotion.com to the new server's IP. If the DNS change has been fully propagated, we can say goodbye to the old server by deleting it. Upgrading has been done. This strategy prevents from fault in the database that making the site useless. For hosting, we can use cloud hosting because they can be scaled as we want (or depending on the visitor count). There are cloud server provider but for us, DigitalOcean is enough because they don't provide too much services that make some cumbersome.

Again, this is can be debatable but please discuss the solution.

Thanks.

[vortext]

Look, just because SMF hasn't seen an update since late 2017 does not automatically mean it is not secure. Unless you can point towards evidence to the contrary (i.e. have evidence of a proven exploit / vulnerability) there's simply no reason to switch forum software, nor is there reason to migrate to another host (which are two different things btw. The forum software could be changed while keeping the same host and vice versa. )

[Tarkus]

Actually, on the subject of forum software and hosting, ChiefZDN, have you given any thought to starting your own site?  The web technology side of things is obviously something which interests you a great deal, and I know you're trying to find a positive way to contribute.  AFAIK, there isn't a true Indonesian SC4 site in line with what we have in the English-language community, but there is a pretty sizable contingent of Indonesian SC4 players out there.  Starting one to fill that void could be a really beneficial service to the community.

-Alex

[ChiefZDN]

Actually, on the subject of forum software and hosting, ChiefZDN, have you given any thought to starting your own site?  The web technology side of things is obviously something which interests you a great deal, and I know you're trying to find a positive way to contribute.  AFAIK, there isn't a true Indonesian SC4 site in line with what we have in the English-language community, but there is a pretty sizable contingent of Indonesian SC4 players out there.  Starting one to fill that void could be a really beneficial service to the community.

-Alex

Yes, but I don't have money to create a community site.

Thanks for reply.

[ChiefZDN]

To clarify, there are updates to the SMF. Not to mention, there is a commit did 7 days ago. But, compared with Discourse, SMF 2.1 repository has 49 active pull requests (PRs) and 36 active issues from January 21 to February 21, 2018, according to the repo's GitHub Insight page. Meanwhile, Discourse 93 active PRs and 0 issues (because Discourse team doesn't active the Issues feature on GitHub) with the same date range.  Even, the commit activity of SMF 2.1 repo is way less than the Discourse's. You can use the report at https://github.com/SimpleMachines/SMF2.1/graphs/commit-activity and https://github.com/discourse/discourse/graphs/commit-activity. This comparison isn't apple-to-apple, due to lack of the main SMF repository on GitHub but it can give us some insight to the SMF development. So, we concluded that SMF isn't active as before.

Also, SMF doesn't have reliable plugin system. I've tried SMF and observes the way plugins modify the SMF. To run plugins, instead of loading the plugin files and run the codes, SMF actually adding some plugin files' content to some of the forum software files so they can run the plugin code. This is why when you add a plugin that adds new menu items, the plugin files' content added to the system files such as menu.php, instead of adding them in separate code. Another case is when you install a malicious plugin on a SMF forum, it will render the forum software files useless, unlike the loading system that the plugin can be deleted and the site can be turned back to the normal state. While I don't know how Discourse managing plugins, I think it uses better plugin system than SMF.

This is why SMF tracks the file differences, instead of list of plugin files. It means, the plugin provides an XML file containing differences between plugin-modified and default files to be read by SMF. SMF then copies it to a secure location. When the plugin want to be uninstalled, SMF reads the file and adding and/or removing some code to the system files so they will be "fresh". Why I quoted the "fresh" because it doesn't always fresh in real sense. Some plugins forgot to remove some code so they leave residue to the system files. Also, modification to the plugins' code mean it can't be removed by the so-called "SMF plugin system".

But, it doesn't mean I hate SMF. In fact, SMF is functional yet complete forum. But, every software (and human creation in general) has flaws and SMF included. I hope you can consider to move to another forum software.

Thanks.

Note: if Ruby and Ruby on Rails can be run on our server, we don't need to move.

[art128]

I'm gonna be blunt but at this point it's needed.

Why do you want so much to change SC4D? I don't know if you've noticed but we have no intention to change at all in the future.

Why change something that works? That's just pointless.. 

[ChiefZDN]

I'm gonna be blunt but at this point it's needed.

Why do you want so much to change SC4D? I don't know if you've noticed but we have no intention to change at all in the future.

Why change something that works? That's just pointless.. 

If you don't want to change, it's fine. I don't force to you, even I said,

It doesn't mean I hate SMF. In fact, SMF is functional yet complete forum [software].

But, there are features missed if don't migrate: responsive design (this might not important as the users are SC4 players that can access computer at almost any time), Markdown syntax (more easier than BBCode, but requires adaptations), streamlined topic view (again, adaptations needed), side-by-side posting, reliable plugins (including plugins that add rich embed like we seen at Simtropolis) et cetera. I know that site migration can be a disaster, even the disaster can be worse, but this can be prevented using staging migration and detail continuous testing (from most facing like streamlined view to back-in-the-scene like stability and API). There are demands to use mentioned features in the future.

Again, I don't want to force you. If ain't broken, why we fix it?

For the 'create your community site' suggestion, I think I can't do it. Why? Because, the community is hosted on a forum site, called Kaskus. You know that every forum has moderator and so with Kaskus. If I want to promote, I must create a post in SC4 Indonesia (also known as SC4 Kaskus) topic, meaning other users might give me negative rating and making my reputation on the forum goes bad and worse, my account will be banned. If you want to help me, I give you opportunity to do that.

Thanks.

[APSMS]

I actually appreciate that sc4devotion.com doesn't utilize responsive design. It irritates me to no end that when we finally have phones large enough, powerful enough, with high resolution screens to be able to run the full version of websites, that we insist on dumbing them down and making full functionality access more difficult.

[ChiefZDN]

I actually appreciate that sc4devotion.com doesn't utilize responsive design. It irritates me to no end that when we finally have phones large enough, powerful enough, with high resolution screens to be able to run the full version of websites, that we insist on dumbing them down and making full functionality access more difficult.

In fact, there are big phones out there, ranging from Xiaomi Redmi Note series to Galaxy S8+. But, phones with display larger than 6 inches are called tablet, not a phone again (more specifically, phablet because it's in the 5 to 6 inches). Yes, tablet market is dominated by Apple and Windows-based tablet so the price for tablets are high. Cheap Android tablets aren't good as before. For example, Xiaomi Mi Pad 3 is priced around $300 (Gearbeast), while the Redmi Note 3 is priced around $180. So, people choosing phone over (the expensive) tablet.

But, as SC4 player are active on PCs, responsive design aren't needed but you can still consider it since new players might access the site via phone. Also, if you want to change the site design while still desktop only, it's difficult now because HTML frameworks (like Bootstrap) often including mobile-friendly CSSes and pushing (not forcing) the site maintainer to use RWD (responsive web design).

Thanks.

[callagrafx]

SMF is still in active development, and the most recent update (which we don't have at the moment, due to some technical issues we hope to resolve) is from late 2017, not mid 2017.  We have no plans to switch away from SMF, especially as the migration process can be a rather delicate operation.  We don't wish to meet the same sad fate (mangled database) as our colleagues at the former SimPeg.

-Alex

There is a good update strategy: create new instance of the site with new software then migrate the data to the new server and if works, change the DNS of sc4devotion.com to the new server's IP. If the DNS change has been fully propagated, we can say goodbye to the old server by deleting it. Upgrading has been done. This strategy prevents from fault in the database that making the site useless. For hosting, we can use cloud hosting because they can be scaled as we want (or depending on the visitor count). There are cloud server provider but for us, DigitalOcean is enough because they don't provide too much services that make some cumbersome.

Again, this is can be debatable but please discuss the solution.

Thanks.

As you're not familiar with the inner workings of the site, you won't know that this forum and the LEX sit on a dedicated server, paid for in part by donations, but in the main by Jeronij.  Jeroni structured it like this to protect the site from shared server issues and bandwidth problems, and he also uses it for other endeavours. Cloud servers are nice for your photos and other keepysakes, but not for a site like this. If any changes are to be made to the site, it will be his decision and his alone. 

[ChiefZDN]

SMF is still in active development, and the most recent update (which we don't have at the moment, due to some technical issues we hope to resolve) is from late 2017, not mid 2017.  We have no plans to switch away from SMF, especially as the migration process can be a rather delicate operation.  We don't wish to meet the same sad fate (mangled database) as our colleagues at the former SimPeg.

-Alex

There is a good update strategy: create new instance of the site with new software then migrate the data to the new server and if works, change the DNS of sc4devotion.com to the new server's IP. If the DNS change has been fully propagated, we can say goodbye to the old server by deleting it. Upgrading has been done. This strategy prevents from fault in the database that making the site useless. For hosting, we can use cloud hosting because they can be scaled as we want (or depending on the visitor count). There are cloud server provider but for us, DigitalOcean is enough because they don't provide too much services that make some cumbersome.

Again, this is can be debatable but please discuss the solution.

Thanks.

As you're not familiar with the inner workings of the site, you won't know that this forum and the LEX sit on a dedicated server, paid for in part by donations, but in the main by Jeronij.  Jeroni structured it like this to protect the site from shared server issues and bandwidth problems, and he also uses it for other endeavours. Cloud servers are nice for your photos and other keepysakes, but not for a site like this. If any changes are to be made to the site, it will be his decision and his alone.

No, the 'cloud hosting' doesn't mean like Simtropolis (SaaS model) or hosted on Heroku (PaaS model), but it means we own the server but we don't need to care like electricity, cooling and more. If you don't be burden by the term, it's fine. It's just more technical jargon of 'virtual server'. Cloud in my context is actually pay-as-you-go server, meaning if you using it for 2 hours for instance, it will be $0.5, with 1 hour price is $0.25. I don't know why people using 'cloud hosting' as a term that actually referring to pay-as-you-go hosting.

Thanks.

[callagrafx]

Well however you want to define it, the reality is it's not up to anyone but Jeroni, and I think we should leave it at that...

[Glenni]

I'm not really good with website talk, what exactly is being proposed here?

[eugenelavery]

I'm not really good with website talk, what exactly is being proposed here?

Chief seems have a lot of ideas on how this site should be run, perhaps he should start his own site?

[mgb204]

I'm not really good with website talk, what exactly is being proposed here?

Everything you see in the forums is basically some special software, SMF, which is designed to be used for website forums. The proposal is to use a different piece of software, which would maybe look and work very differently.

It's like someone coming and seeing you use GIMP and then suggesting you switch to Photoshop. Chances are you are happy with the one you use and likely opposed to switching. I think there are similarities in terms of using SMF. For example, sometimes I really do like some of the smart stuff ST can do, but for the most part, I appreciate the simpler but IMO more user friendly forums here.
Note: I'm only referring to the software, before someone starts a lynch-mob based on a misunderstanding.

[Simmer2]

I'm not really good with website talk, what exactly is being proposed here?

Everything you see in the forums is basically some special software, SMF, which is designed to be used for website forums. The proposal is to use a different piece of software, which would maybe look and work very differently.

It's like someone coming and seeing you use GIMP and then suggesting you switch to Photoshop. Chances are you are happy with the one you use and likely opposed to switching. I think there are similarities in terms of using SMF. For example, sometimes I really do like some of the smart stuff ST can do, but for the most part, I appreciate the simpler but IMO more user friendly forums here.
Note: I'm only referring to the software, before someone starts a lynch-mob based on a misunderstanding.

Omg! Could not resist...
.

[mattb325]

Note: I'm only referring to the software, before someone starts a lynch-mob based on a misunderstanding.

You are over-stepping the mark. Perhaps you would like to rethink the post and remove the line I just quoted, or, as it is very clear what you are referring to, you can address it in a PM? Which would certainly avoid the unfortunate look of a 'moderator' flouting rules 16, 17 & 18 of this site

Back to topic, I like the forum as it is. I really do.
We have an excellent search function and everything is clearly and easily discover-able. If I can make a small suggestion, ChiefZDN,  as I know you want to help improve the community, and faced with various limitations such as age/finance, it would be best first for you to demonstrate to others (rather than simply tell them what you think they should do) what I'm sure you'll be very capable of in the context of what is available to you for free.

If you are interested in coding, why not familiarise yourself with the Ilives reader, it's completely free, and allows you to look under the hood of SC4?

There is still so, so much to discover in this game and if you look over at Simtropolis for instance, you'll see that other folks, such as Cori are still releasing mods and making discoveries for the game armed with nothing more than a vanilla copy of SC4, the reader and some inquisitiveness. By proving your capabilities with that sort of resourcefulness alone, it will certainly lend more gravitas to you when making suggestions for improvements/changes to the community.