The future of the community.

[Cierzo]

I'm one of these lurkers and new players you're talking about  So I just wanna tell my perspective on that matter:
I've been playing Sim City since the first or second game, don't remember exactly, but always been frustrated because vanilla game didn't allow me to do the things I wanted to do. Last year I discovered this community and got astounded by the amount of great custom content people have created along these years. But, on the other hand, I just got overwhelmed by the quality of the works shown here.
That, in some way, may just frighten new people a bit: the amount of dedication this game requires to show a simple screen shoot that meets the standards shown here. Lately, and not only with games, people seem to want things NOW with a lack of effort by them. So it seems this game is not for them but, instead, for that minority we like to care about things we do 
And, for the lurking thing, well.. If I don't have something to say that improves the conversation, I better keep quiet  Also, I don't like to repeat "Hey! nice thing you've shown here" over and over again, so I only post when I really want to point something, ask for help or just mere curiosity about how that particular thing have been done.
Don't know about the others, but these are my reasons to lurk

[RickD]

And, for the lurking thing, well.. If I don't have something to say that improves the conversation, I better keep quiet  Also, I don't like to repeat "Hey! nice thing you've shown here" over and over again, so I only post when I really want to point something, ask for help or just mere curiosity about how that particular thing have been done.
Don't know about the others, but these are my reasons to lurk

Well, in most situations I would agree with you but here I see it different. People who are creating things (be it Bats, Lots, Mods, or MDs, doesn't matter) put a lot of effort in their work. Surely most of them are not doing it primarily for the fame. But a small positive comment, if only a "Hey, I like it" gives a big motivation to keep up with it. If he gets no feedback then there will come the point were the creator thinks that it is not worth it because no one is interested.
And, if you do not like something, then I am sure most of the creators like to hear constructive criticism, too.

[Kergelen]

Well, in most situations I would agree with you but here I see it different. People who are creating things (be it Bats, Lots, Mods, or MDs, doesn't matter) put a lot of effort in their work. Surely most of them are not doing it primarily for the fame. But a small positive comment, if only a "Hey, I like it" gives a big motivation to keep up with it. If he gets no feedback then there will come the point were the creator thinks that it is not worth it because no one is interested.
And, if you do not like something, then I am sure most of the creators like to hear constructive criticism, too.

I totally agree with you RickD but would go a little farther. If a creator did not receive comments (both positive and negative or constructive) to show his creations then probably became tired of showing in public their creations. This leads us to a few people who show their creations and then if no one show his creations, users (active or lurkers) do not have the opportunity to exchange ideas, knowledge or ways of doing things. If one has a good idea, other users can find interesting and even improve it. Or conversely, if you see something you like you will use for your creations.
For example the issue of MD's: above many of us have ideas or inspiration from other images we've seen in others MD's, and combine our own ideas about what we want to do with ideas that give us the other MD's.
I think that all creations have a part from the creator and another part from the things that were done previously.
The essence of this community is the cooperation.

Sometimes I don't like to post only "I like it" and I tried to write a little more. But I think is better to say " I like it" than nothing. And sometimes I don't have a lot of time to write some sentences.

[Ricky112233]

Agreed. Also on my 1st post, I'd like to add that if we'd maybe 'show' more people what SC4 is and what you can do with it, that they might join the community. We don't have to, but that's what I've been doing for the last 2 years or so...In fact, I recently discovered that one of my classmates plays SC3000, and I've been telling him to drop by my house one time so we can fire up SC4.

Now we shouldn't force them and we once again don't have to tell the entire world about Sc4, but who knows? Maybe an entire 'group' of people will be joining the community.

Either way, SC4 is great, and I will keep playing it until the day comes that discs will become obsolete or the game won't work anymore... And from my not-so-many-years of experience, all good things come to an end.

(But don't worry, the end is definitely NOT in sight, and I think, the end won't be near for another 3-5 years or so!)

Also what I noticed with other games/communities, is that it's 'pretty normal' for it to have periods where it will go 'up and down'...I think if we just stay calm positive, everything will turn out to be not so bad!

-Ricky

BTW, I'm 13 now, not 12, just haven't made the effort yet to change my signature!)

[noahclem]

Sometimes I don't like to post only "I like it" and I tried to write a little more. But I think is better to say " I like it" than nothing. And sometimes I don't have a lot of time to write some sentences.

I couldn't say it any better. I completely understand if it feels a bit silly to say "I like it" or "other generic positive comment" over and over--but it can be really nice just to hear something like that, especially if you're not getting many comments, and certainly it's much nicer than nothing at all. I like to give as detailed of feedback as I can but there's lot's of great stuff around here that I'd like to leave such comments on and all kinds of reasons I sometimes don't have time to leave those kind of comments. I've found that when I wait for the time to compose what I want to I often end up forgetting entirely. Instead, when I don't have much time I try to at least say something.

Nice discussion guys 

[Reform]

I have been an active member of SC4 community for a time and released some lots of my own. At the same time I have also been an active member of another forum, leaving SC4D only my casual lurking-ground.

Reason for this is that I simply don't know what to write here. Yes, I admire (and I am also truly thankfull) for all the hard work you guys have done and and keep doing in here. Yet I remain mostly silent, because everything here is also a bit more serious. It's hard just to jump between long lasting conversations about technical stuff and future plans, when it is done by a tight community - even if you are well aware about the basics of that discussion and you know people in here still want some outside opinions and encouragement.

SC4Devotion is for SC4 players. Yet it often feels that this community is more for it's currently active members. Persons feeling themselves as outsiders, of who are active members of another forum, may find it easier to discuss about their ideas and problems elsewhere. I am still checking trough Resent Unread Topics several times in week and reading most of the posts and topics - even/especially technical ones. But, do I really have anything valuable or interesting to add? It is hard to think that I do.

I hope you all understand that I am writing this with a positive attitude. I just don't know allmost any one here and there currently isn't any easy way to jump in.


Rest assured, I keep lurking around, reading your posts clapping my hands to your works and diaries. I might even put in a comment or two now, when I finally found some way to infiltrate my self in to SC4D's discussions.

I hope that other readers are able to find their own way as well.

- Ilja

P.S. In case I ever manage to get this trough the verification: I understand the need for this, but this is allready my fifth sixth time, when I try to get this message trough. 

[noahclem]

I hope you all understand that I am writing this with a positive attitude. I just don't know allmost any one here and there currently isn't any easy way to jump in.

I think you just jumped in 

I can't give any good reason why I also found it hard to jump in but I did. If you have any suggestions for what might make it easier for people to quit lurking I think people would be open to suggestions and if I had a good idea on the matter I would already have said something.

Of course there are advantages to a tight-knit community as well. And I hope that you continue posting after your jump--and there's certainly room for more Finns in my MD Siilijoki 

[apeguy]

Before SC4D, I was an active member of www.simcitycentral.net, from when I joined in April 2007, to when the site went completely dead around the end of 2010. The problem with the site was that many of the "classic" members had not been active on the site for months, even years, and many of the current members at the time would sometimes disappear for ages, which meant that from mid-2009 onwards the site was pretty quiet. There was still a small community of us that posted regularly, but most of it was off-topic stuff which usually had nothing to do with SC4, so I guess for the most part the site served simply as a social networking site in a way.

One user in particular was homeandaway, who was also called Alex coincidentally, and we actually became good friends through SCC, and we were both the biggest posters on the site, with about 7000 posts between us. Us two and a few other regular users ended up becoming the only active members on the site, and we tried everything we could to stop the site from "dying". Most of us regulars had CJ's (Mine and Alex's were the most popular on the site and biggest in terms of replies and updates), we had a group called NHC (which me and a user called dada222 even made BATs for) and I even started a club called Society of Active Posters, (which had an awesome acronym imo) all in an effort to save SimCityCentral.

The fact that Alex disappeared without a trace after the Christmas of 2009, (or 2008, I can't quite remember) which severely affected the site's activity, as he posted about as much as the rest of us together, and he was by far the most popular member on the site. This was one of the main reasons that SCC started to decline, coupled with the general lack of active users in general.

There were a lot of MDs (known as CJs on SCC) including my old Delta Valley CJ, and there were some very talented people, with a lot of readers. Me and Alex even started CJ of the Month awards, and we even hosted a CJ of the year award back in 2008, which proved to be very popular. Us two even started up The Brotherhood of Sim Nations, which was kind of like a mini SCJU or URSC, with our own nations based around our CJs. Again, this was popular, but it only involved the small group of active posters, as no new members seemed to be posting anything.

Another reason why I think SCC declined was due to the way the forum and the site in general was laid out, as well as what was in the forums. The forum software, while perfectly fine, was relatively simple. Unlike SC4D, there was no Karma system, no custom titles and no CMLs. (at least not until the last forum upgrade, long after the site went dead) I know these things aren't essential, but they do help make using a forum a more interactive, personal and enjoyable experience. None of these things were available to use with phpbb software, and I don't think Martin (the Admin, formerly known as cogo) could afford a better forum software, mainly because there was no way of supporting SCC. (something I would have done instantly at the time)

SCC had a downloads section as part of the forum, and this is where the lack of activity stemmed from. Many of the BATs, LOTs and MODs found there are, as far as I know, exclusive to the site. This means that people will see these downloads that you won't find here, at ST or anywhere else, register, download the items and then most likely never visit the site again, not even to leave feedback or criticism for the downloads they've joined to get. Again, this was because the community was small, and there wasn't enough content on the site to attract large numbers of new users. Last time I had a proper look at the forum stats (around the end of 2008 I think) there were about 15000 members on the site, only a couple of thousand had posted once, and only about three dozen were active members. I imagine those who never posted just came for the exclusive downloads.

At one point I even asked Pegasus if I could get some of his downloads onto SCC to maybe attract more people, (although they would have most likely never posted, but I didn't think of that at the time) and I even considered asking at SC4D (I site I had only just discovered at the time) if the BSC team would consider opening up shop at SCC as well. In the end I didn't bother, as I seriously doubted whether BSC would see the point of operating at SCC.

This was another problem at SCC - Sometimes I felt that the future of the site rested in my hands, and that Martin wasn't trying anything to keep the site from going dead. Our group of active members was slowly getting smaller, and Martin was never around, and disappeared for months at a time. When we all stopped visiting around the end of 2010, afterwards the activity in the forums shot up, because of SPAM. When I checked back with the site a couple of months back, there was something stupid like 60000 members, all of which were spammers, thriving because no-one was there to stop  them. This was because Martin was on his own, and with no-one to help him as he was the only admin and with no moderators and him gone for long periods, his once enjoyable site became a giant advertising billboard.

I understand how he must have felt, as I also know what its like to be the admin of a dead website. From November 2007 to Nov. 2010 I had a site called apeguyproductions.com, which had problems from the start. First of all, the forum software was primitive at best, and the only members who joined were my friends from SCC and a couple of people from SimPeg. (where I advertised the site as well as at SCC) There were only a handful of CJs, no downloads and about 50 users in total racking up about 1500 posts, about a quarter of them being my own. Like SC4D, the site had a wiki, but only me and my older brother used it, and was pretty much unknown to the other users, as it was about my fictional planet of Alterra.

By now you're probably wondering what all this has to do with SC4D, but I'm getting to that now. The biggest threat to this site and all the other SC4 sites is, in my opinion, the saturation of the SC4 website "market", that is, too many SC4 sites. Over time, other sites will most likely fade away and close, and eventually ST and SC4D could be the only sites remaining. The main reasons for SCC's decline was the lack of active users, not enough SC4-related content, lack of site moderation and staff, and simply the fact that the site didn't really stand out amongst the other SC4 sites. There was a downloads thread, but very few users actually had development threads where people could check out their progress. There was a site admin, but no proper staff who could help him keep an eye on things and manage the forums. The forums could have been made better with some investment by users, but there was no way to donate.

The reason SC4D is so successful is because of the sheer diversity and quality of the content here. This site is home to NAM, 3RR, BSC, VIP, and many other teams and individuals, many of which are the best SC4 content creators in the world. There is full support to be found in all aspects of the game, as well as the opportunity to develop and showcase cities, regions, BATs, LOTs, MODs and everything else for this wonderful game. While you may find this at Simtropolis also, The main reason I started posting at SC4D is because of its accessibility, its thousands of friendly and helpful members and its role in the SC4 community as the hub of great content.

Personally, I believe that as long as there is interest in SC4, (and as long as the upcoming SC5 is good enough to attract lasting interest) this site will never suffer from the same fate as SCC and my own site. Sure, the forums may have to be reduced in size and the number of posts and new downloads in the LEX may start to decrease, this site will still have an active and thriving community, something I hope to be a part of for at least a few more years. This is why I will do everything I can to help keep this site alive, by supporting people, keeping my MD going, and who knows, I might give custom content another go. I made a lot of good Friends at SimCityCentral, something I hope to happen again here over time.



I know this was a very long post, but hopefully my experiences at SCC and my own site provided a contribution to this thread.

[Lowkee33]

Well, I just learned how to edit a polygon 


Don't know if that hinders SC4's demise or not 

Edit: and yes, I know how completely unnecessary it is for me to model a small house these days.

[apeguy]

@Lowkee33: That may only be a small house, and you're right that it won't stop a whole website losing activity, but the fact that you've decided to post a picture of something new, that you've just learned how to make does help the site, and if for example you were to show this in your development thread, it may help attract more people to this site, and may help to turn more lurkers into posters. Like people have already mentioned, people's support, constructive criticism and appreciation for yours and other people's work keeps them going, as they know there are people on this site that will be interested in what they're making.

This kind of community interaction and involvement is what makes SC4D special, and what keeps it alive. That may only be a small house you've made, (and even without textures it's far better than anything I ever made with the BAT) but this and many other of your superb things you've made are helping the site and the SC4 community.

[FrankU]

And, for the lurking thing, well.. If I don't have something to say that improves the conversation, I better keep quiet  Also, I don't like to repeat "Hey! nice thing you've shown here" over and over again, so I only post when I really want to point something, ask for help or just mere curiosity about how that particular thing have been done.
Don't know about the others, but these are my reasons to lurk

Well, in most situations I would agree with you but here I see it different. People who are creating things (be it Bats, Lots, Mods, or MDs, doesn't matter) put a lot of effort in their work. Surely most of them are not doing it primarily for the fame. But a small positive comment, if only a "Hey, I like it" gives a big motivation to keep up with it. If he gets no feedback then there will come the point were the creator thinks that it is not worth it because no one is interested.
And, if you do not like something, then I am sure most of the creators like to hear constructive criticism, too.

I must admit, Rick, that sometimes I get the feeling that nobody cares about my products when I see that there is just one or even no reaction after a presentation of a new lot. So I agree with you. I really feel good and sometimes even proud when there are reactions that only say things like "wow!". Even though a more lengthy comment on flaws and faults is even more welcome.

Another thing about old games and communities.
In a far and forgotten past someone gave me a copy of Quake, you may remember the name. It is a first person shooter and it was quite a big project in those days. I even forgot when the game came out, but it must have been somewhere halfways the 20th century.
Anyway, this is the only game I have played since 1990, together with Civilization 1,2 and Simcity 1, 2000 and 4.
Last year, after I had gone through the mazes once again (once a year I fire it up, run all levels and put it away for several months again), I suddenly thought: might there also be a community about Quake with new levels that I could play? Well.... there I found something! There is a very active community that has almost upgraded the game to a higher level. Quite like is done with SC4.
With this kind of devotion to games I never have to buy a new one and I can spend my budget on sustaining the community. That's why I am a subscriber to this site.

[smileymk]

The discussions here are so intriguing and important, I feel I just have to air my views on this matter.


Decline in topics


I think the main reason for this is that, quite simply, we've already exhausted our options when it comes to things to start topics on. Here on SC4D we have boards for every single development group there is, a massive showcase board (the 'Show us Your...' section) with topics covering everything from game oddities to suburbs. City-bilding competitions exist in the form of GRV II. Not to mention the plethora of MDs we've got.


So naturally the rate at which topics are started is bound to slowly decrease. I think it's therefore a bit misleading to say that the site is declining simply on the basis of the number of new topics.


The only real way we can judge whether the site really is declining or not is to look at how many MDs get started. Since this happens quite regularly and isn't a one-off thing, it would provide a better picture of how things are going.


Lurking


Lots of people are nervous! It takes some courage to introduce yourself to a bunch of strangers from all over the world. This is why people tend to introduce themselves quietly, for example by leaving brief comments on MDs - because once you've made that first post, subsequent posts become a lot easier.


There are many reasons why people become inactive. Maybe they've found other interests or real life has simply got in the way and they don't have time for SC4.


This last point is especially relevant these days. Although the UK and other countries are now technically out of recession, we're still in one hell of a mess economy-wise. People are losing their jobs and their livelihoods, and they're scared for themselves and their families. Family comes first, and people will do anything to protect their loved ones. If I had to make a choice between staying active here and feeding my family/holding on to my girlfriend then I would choose the latter without hesitation, and I'm sure everyone else here would do the same.


Therefore, I'm sorry to say that there really isn't any solution to the problem of lurking. It's just the way things are.


Image of the site


Firstly, I want to say that, in my opinion, SC4D remains the best of the SC4 fansites. I really like the standard to which everyone here aspires, and the friendly, love thy neighbour community spirit shown by everyone here.


However, there are some things that I think need changing to encourage people to come here and stay here.


Firstly, there is a lack of help for the newcomer. For example, there isn't a single tutorial on making BATs here that I know of. Given how important these things are, I find this quite shocking. There are a few really good tutorials out there , but often they cover very specific things, whereas more general tutorials on realistic building are badly needed.


The reason I started Realistic Cities for Dummies was because I felt that I had to provide a simple, easy-to-understand, step-by-step tutorial on all aspects of realistic city-building for everybody, because, in my view, this kind of tutorial didn't exist and was what a lot of people were craving. I think that the reason it's popular is because it remains the only 'idiot's guide to SC4' anywhere on the Internet, at least in my view.


I think that the NAM tutorials should go into the Tutorials section, mainly because this is where a newcomer's going to go first to learn the tricks of the trade.


I never knew the Urban Planning and Design thread existed until I read about it on this thread earlier today. Such a thread will be useful to a lot of people, so it really should be accessible from the home page.


I also think that the most useful/popular threads (such as the 'Show us Your...' and the MDs) should have very obvious links from the home page. This way they'd be easy to find and would attract newcomers. If they can't find the info easily, they'll stay away.


Secondly, sometimes I do get a feeling that this site can convey an elitist image.


I frequently look at the 'Show us Your...' section and I never see any images of things under construction. I really think that it would be helpful to everybody if we started seeing some of these, because then we'd know how you guys made those masterpieces.
The way things are at the moment, it's very easy for people to look at those images and think 'I could never do that.' They then get despondent and stay away, which is a great shame.


The truth is that everyone CAN do it. If a few 'how-to's' and 'under construction' shots were posted now and again, it would make people think 'hey, this isn't so hard!', and they'd be encouraged to try the techniques for themselves and improve. Then we'd have more good players. Something to think about?


The LEX


I think that the rule saying that only selected people get to upload to the LEX is the single biggest thing on SC4D that conveys an elitist image.


Don't get me wrong, it's really important to preserve the quality of uploads, but this is the wrong way to do it. It doesn't allow for the fact that even the best people can do a bum upload, and it excludes all the rest of us who might, out of the blue, come up with a truly stunning piece of work.
In addition, it can (and probably does) stink to some people of "we're only gonna let our best mates upload, not you commoners." This sort of attitude doesn't go down too well.


My solution would be to let everyone submit files for approval (and subsequent upload) by the LEX Committee. If they're good enough, then they get uploaded. If not, then provide a clear explanation as to why the file was rejected, so that the person can act on those deficiencies and get better at making stuff.


Writing Style and Acronyms


I'll keep this short as I know I'm going on a bit. Nobody wants to see huge blocks of text littered with jargon. The only thing people do when they see posts of this nature is turn away, because they don't have the time or patience to understand the post.


Therefore it's really, really important that you all use lots of paragraphs, correct spelling and grammar and clear English throughout in all of your posts (as best you can), and keep acronyms and emoticons to a minimum.


Conclusion


I know I've gone on a bit, but that's simply because I had so much to say!


To conclude, the site and the game aren't dead. One of my best friends has recently resurrected AOM (an empire-building game) and an associated forum more or less single-handed. That's an older game than SC4, and that forum has far less members than SC4D, so there's no reason why we can't keep this site and the game going. My friend had (and still has) the dedication, and so do we.


But we all need to work really hard to keep this great site and game going. If we don't, we'll lose the best simulation game ever made.


Chris

[Lowkee33]

My solution would be to let everyone submit files for approval (and subsequent upload) by the LEX Committee. If they're good enough, then they get uploaded. If not, then provide a clear explanation as to why the file was rejected, so that the person can act on those deficiencies and get better at making stuff.

Thats exactly what we do.  The hardest part about the process is great work that doesn't translate well into the SC4 engine.

[Rayden]

Chris, we know you're good intended, but in what concerns the LEX, please take a look at this thread and it's first (sticky) 7 topics. Those rules are the reason all the content in this site are first quality and there are no restriction other than those rules to anyone to upload their work.

[mike3775]

I posted in another thread anout how I prefer to download from the LEX here because I know the people who make the lots have undergone scrutiny before being allowed blanket access to upload, which is good.  ST has a great exchange, but sadly anyone can upload and sometimes lots that are "cool looking" can cause issues(like one futuristic lot that had a nasty habit of wanting to grow on a 2x3 CS$$ lot that6 looked immortal but wasn't), the only issues I have ever had from the LEX is caused because I assumed I had all the dependencies required, but didn't. 

I don't play the game for realistic looking cities, I play for fun(hence in sandbox mode with a moolah tree plop to give $1 billion+ money to start), but I do not use maxis R buildings at all, I have so many R buildings downloaded from the LEX, STEX, and Pegs.  So I download lots from several places, but I have my downloads separated in my plugins folder with the site they came from, so that if I have issues, I know which folder to locate the issue at. 

As far as FrankU goes, I apologize for not posting in his farm threads lately, I forgot all about it with the 3RR birthday and multiple posts inthe NAM sections, I forget to scroll the entire forum length to look at the threads I like(I should subscribe to them I know  lol).

As far as this forum goes, I love it, lurking is an issue every single messageboard on the internet has and it will never go away.  I post on a pro wrestling messageboard that has over 1000+ members and I bet only 50 or 60 are active daily, and only maybe 120 weekly.  This board has been around since 1997(I have the 2nd most posts on it, trail the leader by only 45 posts now, but that person has not posted in over 1 1/2 yrs so that tells you how active he used to be) but it has had its ups and downs over the years.  A Piracy related board I am a member at is the same way, thousands of users, but few active daily posters. 

[smileymk]

Just to clarify and correct what I said about the LEX:


- I thought (before I checked it just now), that you had to submit 3 top-notch files to be able to upload. It turns out that this was an oversimplification - you can submit one file for upload, and it will go live if approved, and you get permanent uploading rights if you do 3 good enough uploads.
Either I must have misread it before or you must have changed it since then.


I apologise for my error - I really ought to check my facts before posting. I have to say that the situation is better than what I previously thought.


- I should have been clearer about who should get upload rights. (This is what happens when you rush posts!)
What I meant to say was that we should do away with upload rights altogether in my view, and make all files be approved by the LEX Committee before they get uploaded.
That way, we can guard against the odd 'bum' upload and get rid of the 'privileged few' image I talked about in my last post.


It will also mean that we can reword this rule (the bold type is my addition):

In an effort to keep the site's content quality, once the final exchange is up and running, only outstanding creators will be invited to have their work on the exchange.[/color][/color][/size][/font]

,


which is, in my opinion, partly responsible for this potential 'privileged few' image (particularly the 'outstanding creators' part), to something more like this:


"In an effort to keep the site's content quality, all files will need to be submitted to the LEX Committee, and only outstanding uploads will be approved for upload to the exchange."


This would completely get rid of the 'privileged few' image, and make people think that anyone can upload to the LEX as long as they make a good enough file, which will encourage them more to stay and to try to improve.


Remember, newcomers will look at the site rules long before they see the LEX Candidacies board.


We need to make it completely clear in both the rules and the ethos of the site that we give everybody, however new and inexperienced they might be, the best possible chance to become one of the greats, and then they will stay for good.


Thanks to Rayden and Lowkee33 for pointing out my errors.


I will conclude by restating that I do think it is of prime importance to maintain the quality of the LEX. I just think that there are a couple of things that can be done to make it even more attractive to everybody.


Chris

[Rayden]

Even without upload rights, it doesn't mean your work cannot be uploaded to the LEX, usually it does but by one of the Admins and under the name of the creator. And after you get your upload rights, that doesn't mean either that your work can go bypassing the scrutinizing process, even those "outstanding creators", most of them, still submit their work to be scrutinized by somebody else on the team. For example at BSC, that scrutineering is done internally at the BSC site, but you can be sure it happens and we are as thoroughly as with anybody else.

[Swordmaster]

Not meaning to be rude, folks, but... if only half the time spent by everyone reading and commenting on this thread had been spent on commenting on someone's MD or creating a new LOT, we wouldn't be having this conversation. Any community that starts to talk about itself as being in trouble will usually get there in short order.

My two cents.

Cheers,
Willy

[noahclem]

Thank you Willy!

@ smileymk - Taking away the upload rights of insanely talented creators that work extremely hard to get the rights they have will not help anything--and is no less than an abominable idea. Accusing SC4D of being elitist while claiming that most of the way the site is run is wrong and should instead be done your way is hypocritical. Suggesting that SC4D should be run more like other websites is redundant--why have many SC4 fan sites that do the same thing? Better to have one site or if there's multiple sites have them be run in the way that gives them a unique niche that best fits their members. Finally, if you really would like to contribute to the future of this website I suggest you spend half the words you've just spent here telling the leadership of the site what they are doing wrong by telling the plethora of MDers and content creators on this site what they're doing right.

[jmyers2043]

@ Chris

.... I just think that there are a couple of things that can be done to make it even more attractive to everybody....

I think the appropriate action is to write a PM and submit your plan and grammar suggestion to an Admin. 

The current conversion is moving away from the topic, and may have outlived its usefulness.

- Jim