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April 11, 2021, 11:36:06 AM

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Author Topic: Maximum region size?  (Read 5538 times)

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Offline Wiimeiser

Maximum region size?
« on: July 23, 2017, 02:23:55 AM »
It appears trying to edit a 64x64 region freezes the program with this error:

Quote
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "SC4TerraformerApp.pyo", line 2129, in OnTimer
  File "SC4TerraformerApp.pyo", line 335, in UpdateBmp
  File "wx\_core.pyo", line 2794, in SetData
MemoryError
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "SC4TerraformerApp.pyo", line 2203, in OnTimer
MemoryError
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "SC4TerraformerApp.pyo", line 2203, in OnTimer
MemoryError
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "SC4TerraformerApp.pyo", line 2203, in OnTimer
MemoryError
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "SC4TerraformerApp.pyo", line 2203, in OnTimer
MemoryError
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "SC4TerraformerApp.pyo", line 2203, in OnTimer
MemoryError

What's the maximum size of a region in SC4T? In the game itself the maximum appears to me 127x127, it can load larger but can't scroll past the 127th pixel in either direction regardless of region size...
Pink horse, pink horse, she rides across the nation...

Offline Golhbul

Re: Maximum region size?
« Reply #1 on: July 23, 2017, 02:51:44 AM »
In the NAM, there is a small patch applied ...
In Memory, it's stored in the [.... Documents / Simcity4 / NAM Auxiliary Files / Tools / 4gb_patch.exe] folder.

Have you tried it?

Offline Wiimeiser

Re: Maximum region size?
« Reply #2 on: July 23, 2017, 03:10:49 AM »
Not on SC4T AFAIK. I don't know if it'll even work

Alternatively, it could be a city file limit, say 255 (an all-blue 64x64 would be 256 files)

A 20x128 region didn't glitch up; maybe it's horizontal or memory-based?

On an unrelated note, your signature's broken due to the Photobucket thing.
Pink horse, pink horse, she rides across the nation...

Offline Tarkus

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Re: Maximum region size?
« Reply #3 on: July 23, 2017, 05:06:07 AM »
A 20x128 region didn't glitch up; maybe it's horizontal or memory-based?

I remember mightygoose and I one day decided to do some informal experiments with it some time in 2009-2010.  System specs do seem to play a part in that determination, but the general sense I got from those experiments was that the number of city tiles did play a role, as going to a non-square region did allow one to extend one dimension further.  The next step would be to try things like 16x256, 8x512, etc.  The 4GB patch does indeed seem to up those limits with the game and with SC4TF and SC4Mapper, so it might be possible to get even larger regions.

Long, narrow regions are actually something I've wanted to experiment more with at some point.  If one goes to the extreme of a 1-tile-wide region, it'd actually eliminate the potential for eternal commuters.

-Alex

Offline mrbisonm

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Re: Maximum region size?
« Reply #4 on: July 23, 2017, 09:22:45 AM »
8x512......now, there's something different, that hasn't been done yet. I wonder how that would be played.....lol
I'll stick around, that sounds interesting, Tarkus. ;)

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Offline Wiimeiser

Re: Maximum region size?
« Reply #5 on: July 24, 2017, 12:06:37 AM »
If one goes to the extreme of a 1-tile-wide region, it'd actually eliminate the potential for eternal commuters.
Not entirely sure that's possible, the game doesn't allow scrolling in a direction if the dimensions of the Config.bmp are less than I think 5 or 8, and considering the game displays the regions on a bit of a diagonal...

Long, narrow regions are actually something I've wanted to experiment more with at some point.
That's one of the regions I'll be making. I was trying to make the biggest island in the chain when it glitched up.
Pink horse, pink horse, she rides across the nation...

Offline Kitsune

Re: Maximum region size?
« Reply #6 on: July 24, 2017, 08:05:39 PM »
Dobdriver has produced some mammoth maps - including the LA one that requires a patched s4t. If I remember correctly he did eventually hit a limit with the patched version but that was many years ago and I dont remember the size ... oy.
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Offline Tarkus

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Re: Maximum region size?
« Reply #7 on: July 24, 2017, 09:21:29 PM »
Not entirely sure that's possible, the game doesn't allow scrolling in a direction if the dimensions of the Config.bmp are less than I think 5 or 8, and considering the game displays the regions on a bit of a diagonal...

Testing last night confirmed that.  The horizontal dimension does indeed put a limit on vertical scrolling, and that also ends up happening at a certain point after widening, too.  My attempt to produce an 8x512 config.bmp (2 large tiles x 128 large tiles) wouldn't let me scroll all the way to the bottom.  I was barely able to do 8x256 (2 large tiles x 64 large tiles).  In theory, 16x256 should definitely still work.  Based on the fact that these regions load without crashing, the scroll issue would seem to be some sort of UI-related limitation

Dobdriver has produced some mammoth maps - including the LA one that requires a patched s4t. If I remember correctly he did eventually hit a limit with the patched version but that was many years ago and I dont remember the size ... oy.

The "Big Island" of Hawai'i map he did is listed at 701 large tiles.  I had to run the Los Angeles map through SC4Mapper to get the figure--it's slightly larger, at 734 large tiles.  He's carved a fair bit of ocean out of both of them, but config.bmp on the LA one is 144x96 (which, theoretically, would add up to 864 large tiles--36x24--without the carving).  The Hawai'i one had more carving, as its config.bmp is actually an even larger 132x148 (without the ocean reduction, that'd add up to 1221 large tiles, or 33x37).

Those seem to be SC4Mapper-only per the Readmes, however.  I don't know if SC4TF with the 4GB patch would be able to pull those off.

-Alex

Offline APSMS

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Re: Maximum region size?
« Reply #8 on: July 24, 2017, 11:24:23 PM »
According to the comments on that file it appeared that drunkapple (are drunkapple and dobdriver the same person?) thought that the maximum size possible was 59x59 large tiles, or 236x236 km.

It's not clear still whether or not you'd be able to load the region before memory ran out and the game crashed. Apparently in order to get the screen render of a 59x59 large tile (flat) region, both the Mapper and SC4Manager had to be patched with the 4GB patch.
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Offline Tarkus

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Re: Maximum region size?
« Reply #9 on: August 04, 2017, 03:50:38 AM »
By the way, I did end up doing quite a bit of further in-game testing on region limits the other day.  The minimum dimension (width or height) on a config.bmp that can support scrolling is 2px.  The caveat is that with at least at some point in the region, there must be two city tiles on one dimension, or else the scroll issue Wiimeiser described happens.  It is actually possible to have a 4px wide region that has one row with two medium tiles, and the rest blue, and I successfully made a scrollable 4x254 region this way (1x63 large tiles, with row of two medium tiles at the bottom).  8x252 (2 large tiles x 63 large tiles) also allowed enough scrolling that every tile could at least be accessed.

The two limiting factors on how far one can go on width/height are the scroll issue and CTDs.  With the scroll issue, there's actually more of a limit on scrolling on width than on height.  I was able to produce scrollable regions with 255px height--albeit very narrow ones (at 6px, the southeast corner was unreachable).  The largest width I encountered that worked successfully was 124px and a "short" region (8px high), and it just barely made it.  120x8 was safe, however.  Based on the binary side of things, I'd expect 127px to potentially work, but it may be pushing it.  Going to the extreme--something like 120x252 (if all large tiles, that's 30x63 = 1890)--will crash the game without the 4GB patch (going much over 1250 tiles total will do that--and that's if the land is completely flat and undeveloped).  While it will load with the patch applied, scroll issues will arise.

In general, the 30-31 large tiles x 30-31 large tiles limit that dobdriver/drunkapple defined for the scroll limit (they are indeed the same person) is pretty accurate, though one can push it farther on height (potentially up 63 large tiles high) if they keep it on the narrow side.

-Alex