Sc4-Pim Filling degree question

[FrankU]

Hi,

I am making a set of growable farms. For the creation of these lots I use only SC4-Pim.
All buildings that I create are made by using the blank building. And that is what my question is about.

In hte beginning I used a model to create the building. I entered a reasonable filling degree and went on editing the lot. But som elots contain only vehicles, cattle or trees. I thought it would not be wise to use one of these as a building, because the outcome of the stats would be funny.
Then I wanted to use a prop family of sheds as main object on a lot. A prop family is not appropriate for a building too.

Then I thought>? when I use a model of a farmhouse or a shed for my farms, how will the values relate to the amout of activity on hte lot? A farm house is usually small in comparison to the activities on the lot. Also any shed I use will be smaller then what would be appropriate, because a farm of some scale contains more than one shed or house.

The I decide dto use the blank model. With this procedure I make myself a lot where I can change and edit as many sheds, houses and barns as I like.
I took a look at the CAM list of appropriate number of jobs for all growth stages and I made my buildings.

Of course a blank building does not have much room for jobs, so if the filling degree is 1 I have 2 jobs on the lot. That is a bit too little.

So then I decided to use filling degrees highrer than 1.

This is what I did:

Stage     Filling degree     jobs
  1            70              5
  2           280             25
  3           570             50
  4          1150            100
  5          2230            200

Now my question:
These filling degrees are very very high. Does anyone know if this is allowed? Or are the stats that come out too exaggerated for game play? How could I check this?
Of course it is my aim to make farm lots that can be combined with lots by other makers, so they should grow more or less balanced with each other.

Thanks
Frank

[Lowkee33]

JMyers has a better understanding about making jobs for farms.  Perhaps he will post here, but I'm pretty sure he posted his method some time ago as well.  Basically, each tile on the lot gets a few jobs, and then out buildings get a job for how much work they provide (A small chicken coop probably adds a job or two).  Then make the filling degree so you get that capacity.

For a very high filling degree with the blank model, I wouldn't do that.  I did this exact thing to make CAM test lots (I made one 1x1 lot for every developer/wealth).  Building times were way too long, and I had fires everywhere.  Of course, making the blank piece be as dense as a skyscraper is extreme, but you will have the same issues on a smaller scale.  I don't think the filling degree should work like that, but I haven't had the time to fix it.

You could get around this issue by increasing the occupant size of the blank model until you get the capacity you want from a filling degree of 1 (but of course change it back to something small when you are done).

I'm not a fan of the blank model as a building.  In most cases it is best if the biggest model on the lot is the building.  For your shed issue, you would have to make a building desc for every shed, make a new family for them, and make a lot using the family.  For something that is all cow/tree type things, maybe the blank building is the way to go.

[TheTeaCat]

I had a similar thouhgt a while back but used a maxis prop as the buildings then farms like you see in the first two pics of this update. you can see the rocks in the farms on the left in the second pic

I basically made new desc in PIMX for the rock for 5 jobs and used on a 2x2 lot. can easily be hidden under bushes buildings larger props etc. very handy as all stage 1 farms so grow easily at the beginning.  Also handy for marking out large rural areas quickly. different sized rock props will give different amount of jobs. Easy to modd later in reader if required too.

Its like what you want to do but not using the blank model.
Also Lowkee give good advice about regarding JMeyers advice.

Hopes that helps.
TTC

[jmyers2043]

JMyers has a better understanding about making jobs for farms.  Perhaps he will post here, but I'm pretty sure he posted his method some time ago as well. 

My internet DSL circuit at home has been out since Saturday morning. I'll bookmark this discussion and reply again later. I'm at work right now.

- Jim

[FrankU]

Hi Jim and others,

(The bookmark function is nifty, isn't it? Thanks to Jeronij)

Thanks for the replies so far.

Maybe it is the smartest thing to do if I take a close look at the CAM stage 1 up to 7 farms that are provided and check the stats? There remains one question for me: which stats are really important?

[jmyers2043]

Hey Frank

The history is that BSC farming criteria developed over time. In the old Simtropolis days it was merely an expansion of the 6 Maxis farms and 7 crops. There were many different crops and the number of farms was limited only to the number the gamer wised to download or create. But they were all still stage 1 through 3.

Along came the CAM. How many farm stages do we want was the discussion. And then, what do you do with all those extra stages? There are two things to think about for CAMpatible farms. Purpose and Capacity. 

Purpose
Stage 1, 2, and 3 farms are general purpose farms. Such as the ones I just uploaded.
Stage 4 farms are larger and commercial looking.
Stage 5 farms are reserved for high tech farming. Hydroponic or Aquaculture come to mind.
Stage 6 farms are woodlands. Farmer Jones died and his farm estate was left to a wildlife preservation group.
Stage 7 farms were to be landmark in nature. As an example, stonehenge is in the middle of the English country side as are many historic battlefields. Stage 6 and 7 farms take a while to earn and the % chance that one will grow is small. So they are a bit of a challenge.

Capacity
Farms do not upgrade so capacity is a recommendation:

Stage 1 = 1-15
Stage 2 = 16-31
Stage 3 = 32-59
Stage 4 = 60-99
Stage 5 = 100 and above
Stage 6 and 7 do not have a capacity recommendation because of the nature of the land use.

Requirements for the farms are:

Stage 1,2, and 3 have no special requirement
Stage 4 must have a water supply
Stage 5 needs to be within fire department coverage
Stage 6 needs to be within a 20 radius of a park

So the gamer has some control as to what type of farm will grow nearby. Many CSX commercial farms grow near my small towns and villages because of nearby water. I have a chance that a hi tech fish farm will grow along a river if there is a nearby volunteer fire department building.

Filling degree to accomplish what is needed.

Most farm fields employ 1 Sim and each farm lot tile takes space away from an area that would normally employ a field worker. So that is taken into account. Example: I'm going to create a hypothetical 4X4 farm. That's 16 workers already. I run my barn building through the XTool and find that it employs 6. So that is 16 + 6 = 22 so far. My farm lot has a silo, a tool shed, and a chicken coop. I've done this enough to know that the Xtool will tell me that each one employs 2 farmers each. So that is now 16 + 6 + 2+ 2+ 2 = 28 jobs. Finally, I'll add 1 for the farm house. The farmer sits at the kitchen table and listens to the crop report on the radio. He orders seeds from the DeKalb catalogue and does accounting work to see if he is making a profit. So that is 16+6+2+2+2+1= 29 jobs. A stage 2 farm. The next thing to do is to recompute the barn filling degree until it reaches 29 jobs. Pollution, consumption, all fall into place. I sometimes get filling degrees like 4.35

Good Luck with your farms   

- Jim

[jmyers2043]

Now my question:
These filling degrees are very very high. Does anyone know if this is allowed? Or are the stats that come out too exaggerated for game play? How could I check this?
Of course it is my aim to make farm lots that can be combined with lots by other makers, so they should grow more or less balanced with each other.

Now to the questions.

My filling degrees are usually in the 2 to 5 range when making farms. But I see no reason why a filling degree of 70 is illegal.

Do you have gmax? I usually make my 'blank' buildings in gmax. I create a 4X4X4 box (or other dimension) then UV map it with a material at 0% opacity. Basically, it is an invisible building. But it has 'real' dimensions. You could make a series of these invisible boxes in different sizes. A box big enough for 5 jobs. Another large enough for 10 jobs, etc. Or you can create a box for 15 jobs, stage 1. Another box with 31 jobs, stage 2. etc ... Then you can adjust the filling degree down until you have the desired number.

With the stage 2 invisible box? You could have a three DESC files. One with 31 jobs (max), another DESC with the fill adjusted down to provide 16 jobs (min), and perhaps 24 jobs (middle). Other lot makers could use your various DESC files.

Regarding balance? The above post should answer the question on how to get close. 

- Jim

[Lowkee33]

Do you have gmax? I usually make my 'blank' buildings in gmax. I create a 4X4X4 box (or other dimension)...

There's no need for BAT, just change the occupant size to 4x4x4.  It's true that there is nothing illegal about high filling degrees, but I have found that various properties are not quite balanced.  I would rather make a 70x1x1 box with a filling degree of 1 than a 1x1x1 box with a filling degree of 70.

Just be careful that you don't make yourself an immortal lot when you change the occupant size

[FrankU]

Hi Jim and Carl,

Thanks for the quick reply.

I have some remarkts and questions (you know that usually every answer triggers at least three questions?).

I have a list of job amounts form one of the RippleJet threads about CAM.
This list says:

Stage   I-R

2   16 or higher
3   40 or higher
4   90 or higher
5   180 or higher

This list is different from your list, Jim. Now which one should I use?
I have the feeling that the stats above are very high. 200 jobs for a stage 5 farm? What do you think?

About the stages and the way I implemented them.
Stage 1 is a small lot (1x1 up to 2x2) showing some machinery, a small shed and an entrance to the farm fields.
Stage 2 is a bit larger lot (typically 2x3 and 3x3) that shows an older farm, a bit messy, containing at least a house and a shed or barn.
Stage 3 is a larger farm (4x4 up to 6x4) showing a house, a large barn and/or a large shed. A bit more modern looking.
Stage 4 is a more industrial farm (5x5 up to 5x7), clean with two or more large sheds or barns.
Stage 5 is the largest until now: smallest 6x6, largest 9x8. These farms show high tech high density farming, with clean areas. They mostly have two houses. No fancy aquaculture or high tech structures. The buidings look traditionally designed but new. But I assure you: what is going on inside is high tech, computerized and requires a high education level. Pity that we can not implement education levels to this stage.
Each stage is present with at least 15 lots at the moment.

I have planned stage 6 for manors and estates and stage 7 for abbeys, castles and the like.

I have no Gmax or BAT. I use the blank building that I find when I open SC4-Pim and look under the topic other Models. I am not sure I can edit this model or copy it. But if I can figure out how to resize the occupant size I can make the prop very high. Nobody will see it anyway.

I raised the question in the first place because I was not sure about adjoining properties like flammability, garbage production, power consumption, building value etc. I have never really taken interest in these values, so I have no clue what is realistic and what not. I just look at the jobs and, if appropriate for ploppables, the plop and bulldoze costs. The rest I always took for granted.
But of course I don't want to upload a set of so many farms wilth all stats screwed up.

But of course I can, now the lots are more or less finished, use Jims way of determining te amount of jobs.
I can take a look at every lot I made and decide which of the props present I can use as the building and edit the lot accordingly. The best thing is probably to use the largest model that is not part of a prop family. And then go on like Jim told.

[jmyers2043]

This list is different from your list, Jim. Now which one should I use?
I have the feeling that the stats above are very high. 200 jobs for a stage 5 farm? What do you think? .....

.... About the stages and the way I implemented them .....

Use mine. The documentation is original to the CAM but it was later agreed in the private BSC threads that the thresholds for the upper farm stages were too high. A good example are my Hydroponic stage 5 farms. They qualify as a stage 5 farm based on purpose but not capacity. Probably no farm building would have been big enough to reach stage 5.

.... About the stages and the way I implemented them .....

....Stage 2 is a bit larger lot (typically 2x3 and 3x3) that shows an older farm, a bit messy, containing at least a house and a shed or barn.....

So the 3X3 = 9 jobs. Plus 4 or 5 jobs for the old barn plus 2 for a shed plus 1 for the house = 17 jobs. That's a stage 2 so it sounds like you've got it down pretty good.

Stage 3 is a larger farm (4x4 up to 6x4) showing a house, a large barn and/or a large shed. A bit more modern looking.

A 4X4 lot = 16 jobs. 7 jobs for the large barn. 1 for the house, 3 or 4 for the larger outbuilding. Gets you up to 28 jobs. You may have to bump the lot size up. I often do that.

Stage 4 is a more industrial farm (5x5 up to 5x7), clean with two or more large sheds or barns.

Industrial farm = Commercial which satisfies Purpose. A 5X7 lot = 35 jobs. Two large modern barn buildings at an estimated 10 jobs each = 20. That puts you up to 45. You'll only need enough small sheds, chicken coops, water towers, compost storage bins, or even an outhouse for the remaining 5 jobs.

I raised the question in the first place because I was not sure about adjoining properties

Good obsedrvation!    Xool to the rescue. Set the fill degree to achieve the desired number. But the lot size, buidling types, numbers of buildings should justify the capacity. Pollution, water and power consumption will fall into place.

I can take a look at every lot I made and decide which of the props present I can use as the building and edit the lot accordingly.

Sounds like a plan. You can make a temporary farm building out of that prop to determine capacity. Delete the DESC once you have that information. The prop stays on the lot and doesn't change. That is how I know my grain silo adds 2 jobs.


- Jim

[FrankU]

OK Jim,

Thanks a lot! 

And I did some experiments.
I made an agricultural building out of the Empire State Building and one out of the blank model.
The Empire State Building gave me 1023 jobs when the filling degree was 0.5. The blank building gave me 1023 jobs with a filling degree of 11960.
Then I compared all stats with Reader.

The buildings differed only in two properties: construction time and worth.
The Empire State Building has a construction time of 255, while the blank building has 4. Caused by the heigth of the model I suppose.
The building worth was: Empire 4015, the blank 40. Also caused by the size of the model I guess.

All other properties in the building files were identical.

I don't know if these two properties are really important? I remember I heard once the worth has influence on the chance the lot will grow. Is that correct?

Frank

[jmyers2043]

I wager these two have no affect.

Here is some interesting reading about how the simulator decides what to grow, where, and why.

http://sc4devotion.com/forums/index.php?topic=4441.0

[Lowkee33]

The NewProperties.XML in your PIMX folder has all of the info:

Agriculture worth is:  int( 30. +10./3.*Height*3.0).  So Indeed, height does have something to do with it.
Construction time is worth / 10.

You can change the XML to go off of say, volume instead of height when doing the worth calculation.  My personal feeling is that capacity should be the only thing calculated from the filling degree, and all others should derive from that value.  Of course, I haven't done any of the work in actually understanding the file...

[FrankU]

OK, I'll take a look at the information.

After your answers, I am considering the option of editing the worth and construction time by hand in Reader in 35 building exemplars rather than making 35 new building exemplars with all the necessary making of new lots and copying the Lotobject data etc etc....

Yesterday evening I have started to determine the right amounts of jobs for all of my lots. Some of them should in fact belong to a lower stage, I found out. Now I have to reconsider if I add more props or reshuffle the lots to other stages....
Anyway, I am still waiting for Fred/mrbisonm to finish his prop packs. The results could give reason for drastic changes in my lots, so the end of this project is not yet in sight. But it's fun! And that is the first thing this whole game and community are about.

I thank you both for your generous help.

Frank

Hmmm, well, after having read the thread about growing frequency and especially your reply #8, Jim, I doubt if I should give all of my lots different job amounts. I fear that the ones with most jobs grow more often...?

[jmyers2043]

In the example I used in the other thread. I noted that the buildings with higher job numbers grew more frequently as the regional commercial capacity increased. The thing I wanted to point out is that a strict 'number of jobs' or 'building size' was not necessarily the only factors game engine considers when choosing what grows where. 

I assume you will do some extensive testing when you have the package put together? That is when you'll see if the game favors or two over the others. Adjustments can be made based on your results. My feeling is a capacity variance of +/- four or five farm jobs will not make that much of a difference. I think you'll be happy if you stick with the formula.

Also remember that the CAM will wish to choose a % number of stage 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5 farms based on the regions industrial capacity. There will naturally be a larger number of stage 1 farms at the beginning but that number should decrease as you develop your region.

My recent farm series has 8 new stage 3 corn farms. I removed all other farms during my first tests. If I can grow 3, 4, or 5 of each? I'm happy. I have work to do if I can only grow 1 farm A but grow 10 farm B.

Good Luck

- Jim

[FrankU]

Also remember that the CAM will wish to choose a % number of stage 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5 farms based on the regions industrial capacity. There will naturally be a larger number of stage 1 farms at the beginning but that number should decrease as you develop your region.

Sure, I understand that and it is exactly what I want.

My recent farm series has 8 new stage 3 corn farms. I removed all other farms during my first tests. If I can grow 3, 4, or 5 of each? I'm happy. I have work to do if I can only grow 1 farm A but grow 10 farm B.

And indeed, that is what I was bothering about. I'll do some testing and see what happens.

Thanks a lot!

[Lowkee33]

After your answers, I am considering the option of editing the worth and construction time by hand in Reader in 35 building exemplars rather than making 35 new building exemplars with all the necessary making of new lots and copying the Lotobject data etc etc....

Much faster this way.  I recently PIMXed every Maxis building.  This changed a lot of the stages of the lots, and this meant that the stages in the exemplar names were wrong.  I didn't want to fix them one by one, so I made a Reader Script to do this for me.  I have attached the script here, just extract it in the main Reader 1.4 (must be 1.4), and you should see it listed after you open a file.  This of course makes much more sense if all of your lots are datpacked.

Edit:  Been trying to edit this for days .  There are a few differences between mine and the standard names.  First, Industrial purpose types are capital, you will see "I-R" instead of "i-r".  Second, stages less than 10 start with a zero, this makes them stay alphabetical in a CAM world.  Lastly, I put required roads into the name.  All of my lots are in one file, and I have a copy of this file on my desktop.  When I play, I like to alt-tab out and look at the exemplar name list to see what lots I can grow.  For my own purposes, I have put "anchor", "mech", or "out" at that end of the industrial names, but I have only done this for Maxis Buildings.

A warning:  You might get PIMX errors after doing this.  To fix this, datpack the files with the "compress dat" option checked (it is by default).  It would probably be a good idea to make sure that there aren't any plops in the dat.  I've set it so that it won't change anything if the purpose is "0x00" or "" (nothing at all), but I've only run the script on growables.  Everything still grows on my end after running this script...