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The Modular NAM [FAILED]

Started by ChiefZDN, April 24, 2017, 02:04:48 AM

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ChiefZDN

Hello everyone,

We know that the modding activities don't like before. Previously, many people are made many mods. But now, some people don't want to mod (again). This is also affect the NAM. We had many people including Pegasus in the team. This is different from now because we just have around 6 people working now. We need to makes useful innovations, such as more advanced, more powerful, etc. We'll explain the more modular approach to the NAM.

Intro
The approach is created due to NAM bloat & development issues. I think the monolithic NAM is like double-sided sword. Monolithic approach is good because players can download the NAM more easily. The negative sides are the player need to download the NAM installer entirely (which is ~200M compressed and ~1G uncompressed) and player need large disk spaces.

About the dev issues, NAM Team was initiated the Project 57 in order to fix the network space issue. But, NAM still bloat and P57 isn't an ultimate solution because NAM also had an issue again, dev complexity issue. Development complexity issue plagued NAM since NAM has many networks and their accessories like TuLEP (about NAM 28). In order to fix these, we need an ultimate solutions like this approach.

What We'll Do

  • The NAM will not monolithic again. This is to reduce bandwidth usage. Although the world average internet speed is more faster than in 2004, bandwidth still concerned
  • NAM will be built with some modern tools such as texture curving tool
  • NAM will be built with efficient textures
  • NAM will use DLL for some features like variable elevated network
  • NAM will use masking for things like variable more-smaller RHW
  • NAM will use modular textures and has APIs (the APIs can be consumed by the NAM itself, allows more efficient coding)

Challenges

  • Finding a DLL dev are difficult. As far as we know, currently only 1 people that are DLL dev, Simmaster07
  • When this article written, there just some APIs that can discovered and accessible through the Simmaster's GZCom framework
[/s]

The project is failed. Sorry for some false statements. I made mistake, again. I think this will be used. But in reality, it isn't used.  :crytissue:

Surprise! I will work on new NAM logo. But, because my laptop isn't available, I can't do it now. I can do that in Friday/Saturday. I'll send some designs (maybe 3) to you by PM.

If you have critics, suggestions, or questions, just reply this thread. Thank you.

mgb204

Quote from: ChiefZDN on April 24, 2017, 02:04:48 AM
I think the monolithic NAM is like double-sided sword. Monolithic approach is good because players can download the NAM more easily. The negative sides are the player need to download the NAM installer entirely (which is ~200M compressed and ~1G uncompressed) and player need large disk spaces.

I don't honestly see the problem. Who here doesn't have a sufficient HDD to handle a 200MB download? It needs 1GB of temporary storage to unpack it, but nothing like that when installed. The real beauty of the monolithic system is that you can have all the NAM or just the parts you want. As such, it's amazingly efficient at what it does.

QuoteAbout the dev issues, NAM Team was initiated the Project 57 in order to fix the network space issue. But, NAM still bloat and P57 isn't an ultimate solution because NAM also had an issue again, dev complexity issue.

P57 wasn't related to bloat, it was simply designed to reorganise the ID system of RHW, so that it was a harmonious system that was more logical. Due to the nature of it's inception, the ID system got a bit out of control, and P57 has done a lot to rectify the problem.

QuoteDevelopment complexity issue plagued NAM since NAM has many networks and their accessories like TuLEP (about NAM 28). In order to fix these, we need an ultimate solutions like this approach.

Again that's not really true. Development of NAM content simply is complex, at least for the average modder. That's because it requires a pretty specific skill set, based around RUL coding to get anything into the NAM. But there is no quick fix to this problem, that's simply how the game works and we have a limited frame work that we must work within when modding.

QuoteNAM will be built with some modern tools such as texture curving tool

What you are proposing it not something that can currently be made to work. It would require huge changes to the base code of SC4, which we neither have access to or permission to alter. In theory a .DLL with the appropriate code may be able to solve this problem. But someone has to make that code, I'm not seeing any takers on that front.

QuoteNAM will use modular textures and has APIs (the APIs can be consumed by the NAM itself, allows more efficient coding)

SC4 doesn't link in with APIs, you can add DLLs (which are a similar concept), but to add an API there must be a framework in the existing code to allow it, there isn't.

Pretty much your entire post can be summed up with the following:

The real problem concerning NAM development and SC4 modding in general is that there is a huge lack of people ready to make new things. That problem does not have a simple solution and changing the NAM back from a Monolithic release to a modular one is not going to change this. How do we encourage more people to play and mod SC4? That's a really tricky question to answer, because those who are interested probably are already doing so. But everyone has a real life away from this, one which will surely be prioritised over what is in essence playing a game. The sad reality is simply that SC4 is not as relevant as it once was, with C:S taking a lot of talented creators and players focus away from SC4 entirely.

You won't reverse this by making a few quick changes to how things are done. In fact, it's not likely that you can change it full stop. Most of the casual players prefer easy over the slightly more difficult SC4, although that's relative. Personally I don't see how digging through 1,000+ checkboxes to arrange mods is easier than organising some folders. I don't also see the advantage of 3D being a big deal, if it comes at the cost of any sort of quality in terms of models and textures. But you can shout this from the rooftops, it won't matter, it seems that is what most people prefer.

So whilst I do believe there are things that would lower the barrier of entry to modding SC4, new smarter tools for example. Better organised tutorials and modding information too. Those take a lot of work and focus away from making new content. Without ever addressing the fact that most users have simply moved on, many of which I suspect, for good.

Tarkus

#2
To add to what my colleague (mgb204) has already said on the matter, a lot of this post shows a lack of understanding of how the NAM actually works, and its development history.  Here's one right off the bat:

Quote from: ChiefZDN on April 24, 2017, 02:04:48 AM
We had many people including Pegasus in the team.

Pegasus was never on the NAM Team, and aside from somewhat reluctantly agreeing to let jplumbley use some of his street textures in the SAM back in 2007, he wasn't a big fan of us (judging by his comments on SimPeg in the mid-to-late-00s), and didn't even use the NAM.

We actually tried a "modular NAM" approach for a few years (from NAM 21 in June 2007, up to NAM 30 in September 2011).  It was a failure in many regards, namely because of network crosslinking, the complexity of getting users to understand how the "modular" updates actually worked (it required using dependencies), development creep, and the very strange arrangement of what was included in the NAM "Core" and what was a separate download.  Users were requesting a monolithic package, and we gave them what they wanted.  We made the process of downloading the mod much simpler by doing so.

On the bandwidth front, while ST has stopped hosting the mod directly on their servers for the moment (this happened for a period with the older  "modular" releases as well), traffic is low enough at SC4D that it hasn't been a real issue, and, of course, we have the registration-free option at ModDB, which is where most people get it, anyway.

If your intent is to try to bolster SC4 development, uninformed proposals for things that other people are developing, and talk of new logos is not going to help.  Learning how to actually do things is the only way.  It takes hard work.

-Alex

Edit: was posting on phone . . . fixed a couple oddities

Silur

#3
Hi. Alex and mgb204 (rsc204)  ...
I think it's simple thoughts and wishes from ChiefZDN, which is not worth anything... This man is just distracting other people in utopia. It doesn't always work his computer at the moment and he promises to do something then ... this is All very interesting...

"Surprise! I will work on new NAM logo. But, because my laptop isn't available, I can't do it now. I can do that in Friday/Saturday. I'll send some designs (maybe 3) to you by PM."

He scores activity points and scores on SC4 Devotion or on Simtropolis?
Or maybe we should help him somehow in his life...

tigerbuilder

Everyone is free to post... ideas are welcome.

One thing for sure is all of us experienced players get a good laugh from things like this.

Thank you guys for not only keeping the NAM alive...but always impressively breaking boundaries. Many of us know the truth, it's amazing what you guys do.

dyoungyn

Ditto,

On the front of all the HARD work and tenacious detailed NAM genius creativity from the ENTIRE NAM TEAM has really taken SC4 to new levels thought IMPOSSIBLE and becoming a reality.

Thank you for what has been achieved by the entire NAM team and keep up the tremendous work with more and exciting creations upon the horizon. 

Nothing out there can even come close to what the NAM team has done. 

ChiefZDN

Quote from: Tarkus on April 24, 2017, 10:38:01 AM
To add to what my colleague (mgb204) has already said on the matter, a lot of this post shows a lack of understanding of how the NAM actually works, and its development history.  Here's one right off the bat:

Quote from: ChiefZDN on April 24, 2017, 02:04:48 AM
We had many people including Pegasus in the team.

Pegasus was never on the NAM Team, and aside from somewhat reluctantly agreeing to let jplumbley use some of his street textures in the SAM back in 2007, he wasn't a big fan of us (judging by his comments on SimPeg in the mid-to-late-00s), and didn't even use the NAM.

We actually tried a "modular NAM" approach for a few years (from NAM 21 in June 2007, up to NAM 30 in September 2011).  Iit was a failure in many regards, namely because of network crosslinking, the complexity of getting users to understand how the "modular" updates actually worked (it required using dependencies), development creep, and the very strange arrangement of what was included in the NAM "Core" and what was a separate download.  Users were requesting a monolithic package, and we gave them what they wanted.  We made the process of downloading the mod much simpler by doing so.

On the bandwidth front, while ST has stopped hosting the mod directly on their servers for the moment (this happened for a period with the older  "modular" releases as well)), traffic is low enough at SC4D that it hasn't been a real issue, and, of course, we have the registration-free option at ModDB, which is where most people get it, anyway.

If your intent is to try to bolster SC4 development, uninformed proposals for things that other people are developing, and talk of new logos is not going to help.  Learning how to actually do things is the only way.  It takes hard work.

-Alex

Sorry my friends. I never made this post to discredit NAM Team. I just send a 'crazy' idea, back to monolithic. But we think this is failed. I don't know the internal NAM works. But, NAM itself is composed by textures, puzzle piece codes, and more. I even don't know what's in the Controller. I juts know that Controller contain traffic adjustment, toll fare, etc.

Silur

Work NAM team is a unique thing they did. It works for the whole SC4 community. It was a time - was ideas, were masters. I think further - it is impossible... :'( :'( :'(