Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)

[thingfishs]

thanks a lot again gottago, I appreciate the effort.
I will give all that a go. Texturing has been the most difficult but I gather that's nothing new.
Here's where I am up to today anyway, I have added the pavers in the courtyard (amongst other things.) That's when I thought, okay we need some potted plants out here, I'll just add some props in the LE. Then when I attempted to do so I was reminded of Barby letting me know that you can't place a prop on a bat. So what do you do? Do I need to have just a brick base texture so I can add props or is there some way of incorporating the props into it in gmax?

   

[dobdriver]

I like the idea of a reward rather than a growable, like you say you don't want em popping up on every corner.

The corros coming along nicely the oxidised grey is a good colour, maybe you can try to age it a little?.

I cannot help with info about gmax and props though.

Is there any pipework to go around the tanks etc? or is it inground?

take it easy
dobdriver

[gottago]

Me again 

I'd tile your brick texture at least 4x what you have now.

As for props, you've got to make your own, unless you can get some from another BATter. they have to be gmax or .3ds files.

Or you can refit your LODs tightly around the building to make an L and then fit out the lot in LE with regular props. (LODs are just boxes that the BAT automatically generates and that the gmax model and textures are "painted" onto. They're normally hidden but you can go to Display, click "unhide all" and theyll pop up in your viewscreen. Then you can refit/edit them using planes. Just edit one and clone and rename the other 2.) 

[thingfishs]

yeah those bricks are a bit large aren't they. As for the LODs, that's the first I've heard the term, but I have come across three gigantic green boxes that appear out of nowhere when I select unhide all. I've just been hiding them and pretending I saw nothing... I'll look up more info on them, that sounds like the way to go with all those great props out there. So when people are adding things like what's termed "roof junk" to their buildings, are they newly creating all those things themselves? I always assumed they were props. Or have they done the LOD thing? Of course if you happen to know of a good tutorial on LODs, please pass it on.

- dob (just trying it out), thanks for the vote for rewards. As much as I'm strongly pro-grow, I'm glad you agree this doesn't seem like that kind of building. But a straight plopable is boring. As for aging the iron I intend to try, I'm just not quite at that point yet; gottago is getting me on the right track. As for pipe work, not really, there's a few but most of the transferring of wine is done via large flexible, movable hoses which are usually lying in a bunch on the concrete somewhere. I intend to try to do a pile of them, but have no idea yet how.
However there are plenty of railings, steps, platforms and gangways (see the pictures on the first page) but I know I have to take it easy there or it'll become too cluttered. That's the main area where I think some artistic license has to be taken.

[gottago]

The LODs (Level Of Detail) are hidden by default, along with the camera and lightrig. There's no tutorial on them, just edit them using planes, or rebuild them, its frankly easier. make sure the edges align perfectly, so use simple units.

If you don't have it, DL a copy of philipbo's gmax tutorial on the stex omnibus--it's excellent and very thorough. I think he deals with LODs somewhere.

Re: roofjunk, they have to be gmax files built into the model, otherwise they'd disappear in LE because of the LODs blocking them out--like when in LE your props vanish when they get too close to the building box--that's the LODs in action.

There are a fair number of gmax hvac units on the stex; do a search, you can import them. But not much else in the way of gmax "props" are out there. 

[kwakelaar]

I would say don't bat the pavements, and avoid the problem with props and LOD's (not entirely though). The best thing IMHO is to not do the batted pavements and make a custom LOD. The LOD's do not need to be very accurate this way. And further it makes using your bat for other things a lot easier, more flexible.

I must say the texturing on walls and roof is looking quite nice now. The extra small roof on top looks like the texture is smaller than on the main part of the roof?
The main entrance would benefit from being made in the model rather than being a texture.
This will be a very nice industrial like building

[thingfishs]

I decided to add the primary garden but was having trouble understanding how LODs work. But thanks to some help, primarily from kwakelaar and gottago, I am getting there (although this first version is crude and there are some new shadow and texture issues) What's with the long shadows? And the plutonium lawn?
This was a quick first attempt at the garden and there's not much here that will remain, but I'm glad to know how I can go about doing it.



Now that my basic plan is laid out can anyone suggest any better ways or modifications to this way of adding the gardens (without making all the props myself.) I've been explained some of the advantages of using base textures, would they be a better way to go with some of this? (the main reason I'm not inclined to do it that way is all the new textures I assume I would have to make) Having said that it seems it would be easy to draw the layout of the paths etc in photoshop and then cut it into the right sized pieces. I am fully prepared to throw all this new stuff away, but I'll admit I am feeling a little swamped by the complexity of my first BAT. Thanks again to those that have been helping.
At this point I am intending it to be a 4×4 LOT.

[adroman]

looking excellent thingfishs... 

I can't wait to see where this ends up!

Havva good one,
Adrian.

[kwakelaar]

Getting grass to match in game can be quite difficult. There is a shift in colours when rendering in bat. Gascooker has written a tutorial about this.
Have you taken a look at the textures from different creators to see if you could find something that could fit your recreation? The textures you are showing in this picture does not look that out of the ordinary.
And which shadows are you referring to?
This is quite a complex building, and batting is not something that is very easy to master. You need to take your time.
For just starting out this is really excellent work.

[thingfishs]

thanks Kwakelaar (and Adrian),
there's obviously been a misunderstanding as far as the base textures are concerned. I know there are great appropriate textures out there, but what I've been struggling to understand is what happens when the area you want to cover isn't a nice square of pavers but (for eg) a thin path flanked by concrete and garden. This is why I was assuming I would have to make new ones.
For example I want my lawn to have a thin concrete strip around it but the lawn textures I've seen are just lawn, or lawn & dirt, I haven't seen one with a concrete strip. But what I'm assuming now is that the base textures (perhaps with appropriately shallow LODs) will go under BATs. So in this case would I BAT the concrete strip, and have the lawn as a base texture?



Also the long shadows I have pointed out, and have circled the other main issue in blue, in case anyone can offer additional info...

[gottago]

Hi thingfishs,

Apparently you've jumped into BATting before understanding the basics of how models and lots work ingame--you're probably the first, which is not a criticism at all, as you've got a very good first BAT going here and you're an obvious, precocious,  talent at BAT. Almost everyone else starts BATting after playing around with the Lot Editor first, so they already know this stuff.

So, some basics: download the Lot Editor if you don't have it already from the EA support tab on the op of each SC4D page (there's also the new PIMX tool, but it's more complicated to use; learn the LE first). Install it, read a basic tutorial about how it works, and open up a lot.

You'll see a lot consists of a model file, props, base and overlay textures, flora, and other dependencies, and all can be tweaked or changed. A lot is a rectangle defined by a number of game squares, and textures are square planar overlays that allow you to decorate the lot--add grass or pavement using base textures, and add walkways, roads, tracks or garden beds using overlay textures.

Props are little BATs of people, trees, signage, furniture, etc. that give the lot detail and life, and can be put anywhere on the lot except where the building sits, which is defined by a grey square in LE.

The building, as I said before, is actually a version of the LOD--when you export your gmax model using the BAT, it renders an image of the model onto the LOD boxes to cut down on processor usage ingame. A simple box is easier to draw graphically than a huge poly-count model file. This is why I originally suggested you edit your LODs tightly around your building--if you just let the BAT create a square LOD, which is the default--it would also include the courtyard area of the model, and you'd have to go through the trouble of creating all the base textures and props that sit in the courtyard in gmax, when you could easily do this later in the LE using existing props and textures.

I don't know how you edited your LODs, but they should be an L-shaped box that fits around the buildings, without the brick court, loading area, or the garden. Just the buildings and the tanks.

Once you've exported, you can open up the LE and fit out your lot to your liking. Choose the lot size, orient your building on it, and add base textures for paving, grass and parking areas, then add overlays for walkways, etc., then add trees and people and cars and other details by placing props.

Right now you probably have only a few prop packs and texture packs in your plugins folder, but there are literally dozens and dozens of them created by other BATters and MODders that you can DL to find just the texture or prop that you need, and each one normally includes dozens of props or textures. There are even prop packs that contain buildings that have been converted into props, so you can add a shed, a house, or even a skyscraper to an existing lot that already has a building on it.

BATS of buildings don't usually have much ground around them when they're modeled exactly for this reason; the main reason to include a base is for nightlighting--because if you want to have a nightlight casting a glow on the ground, the ground that receives the light must be part of your BAT.

So ends BAT tutorial 2 

[joelyboy911]

If you want some ground textures made, I can give you a hand. If you make a png of the ground textures you want, with the height and width equal to 128 multiplied by the height and width, respectively, you can put whatever ground textures you want on that. These go differently in LE than props, they are locked to tiles. Anyway, I can make that image into textures, and we can either start compiling a texture pack, or as a team we can opt for a no-dependencies approach.

[thingfishs]

Thanks once again gottago,

I appreciate your praise, & patience. I have no doubt you've been giving me good advice (I've seen the quality of your work), I just haven't always understood it, and feel reluctant to just keep posting "what? huh? do what with the what?"
This time however you've undershot slightly. I've been using the LE, that's how I added the props of the plants, truck, forklift and crates. I don't know too much about using it but like with all this I just feel my way around and slowly figure it out. What I still don't get with the lot editor is how to make things accurate without making a whole bunch of new textures. I'm not talking accurate as far as the textures are concerned, but as far as the layout is concerned. Hopefully this quick effort demonstrates what I am trying to say.



This again is a quick go only. I have got a few of the best known (I think) prop packs installed. And though there are some okay brick textures for example, and a multitude of different paths etc. none that I could find that were even remotely close to both the right texture and layout. As I was trying to work out above, how do I have a thin concrete strip around my lawn? When the lawn itself is only 1 tile × 1/2 a tile and has a particular shape, bordered the whole way by concrete, how do I possibly arrange a number of tiles to represent it? Surely I need to create a brand new texture? (not that I'm against this, it just seemed like there might be another way)

(For what it's worth I took a shot of my LOD, is this the sort of arrangement you were talking about?)



Joellyboy: I'm not fully following you either, but we'll chat.

What I want to do is have the curvy layout of the lawns (with the thin concrete strip), the brick path that widens as it reaches the courtyard. The smaller planter beds etc etc, just as they appear in life. I've established that I can do that (albeit crudely) with flat LODS over the lawn/path etc layout that I create in gmax. Am I not right in assuming that in order to achieve the same level of accuracy with the LE that I would have to create my own base/overlay textures?
Not to just have a brick path that's roughly in the right place, but one that is about as accurately positioned and proportioned as the building itself.

If anyone knows of any particularly appropriate packs please suggest them. And if I am yet again missing the the blatantly obvious point here, please forgive me. 

[joelyboy911]

Yes, I'm saying that you could/should make your own base and/or overlay textures. I was also saying that I can make them for you...

[thingfishs]

man that was fast (I just sent you a pm, nah surely you couldn't have responded that fast), I thought you were getting on the right track.

[mattb325]

Hi Thingsfish

This is a really great first BAT 

I see you've got the custom LODs made.

BUT for this project which is quite small and doesn't sit in water or have automata go through it etc, etc, custom LODs are (in my opinion anyway) overkill. I think the shadow problem you are experiencing is wrapped up in the custom LODs. It would be better to just let the BAT define the LODs as a simple box and split your model into parts according to the boxes.

A very obvious split is the smaller shed. Leave the little connector shed to the main building and then render the smaller one as prop and place it together in the LE. That way, no LODs will be in your turning area and you can place props. You could also split the tanks too - the main shed is quite box shaped so you could likely push props quite close to it without visual glitches.

Also, if you can't think of any nice overlays and so, perhaps BAT the base - again - make it a seperate prop and slide it under the main buidlings: so long as it is under 0.2m high, you can tell the game to cast shadows on it - to see this in action, check out any of Somys apartments, some of Gascookers creations or some of SGs early residentials. Also some of Jetstarrs prop packs have concrete curbing in them to edge your lawns (mostly designed as a parking barrier - but it will give a similar result).

Look forward to using this in game!

[gottago]

Checked back in to see where things are at and Matt offers a very good suggestion--I hadn't anticipated the shadow problem caused by the L-shaped LODs and he's right to make the smaller shed a prop instead. I thought of this earlier but hesitated to suggest it as I thought it would complicate things further for you on your first BAT but didn't foresee the shadow problem. Live and learn. In any event, if you had just used default LODs for the whole model you would still have the problem of having to model the staffage for the entire courtyard, so a custom LOD was not overkill, just produced an unanticipated glitch, and this is the best solution.

And sorry to undershoot so badly on my last post--if you want full accuracy then indeed making custom base/overlay textures or Matt's idea to BAT the lot as a texture/prop hybrid are the way to go--making textures is not that hard, and even easier if joelyboy is going to do it for you

One thing I would add, though, is to model the large black entrance--make it a real opening, give it some thickness on the sides, put a in a plane sitting just above your base and give it an appropriate interior floor texture. From the ingame view, you'd see the interior floor with a raking shadow and it looks unnatural now.

[thingfishs]

Yeah!, THANKYOU 
"make it a seperate prop and slide it under the main buidlings: so long as it is under 0.2m high, you can tell the game to cast shadows on it", this line took me from this to this  (eventually)

And thanks again gottago, this time particularly for acknowledging matt's idea. I doubly relaxed when you said it was the best solution too. All the, at times conflicting advice, is hard to process when you don't know what you're doing. Ah, but that was so long ago...
That was some valuable info mattb325, cheers. I know I probably haven't been explaining myself well but it's hard to do when all the terms are new. Also many people wouldn't care so much about the layout of the garden, but I helped create that thing and for me it's important.
I did as instructed, split the smaller building (the cellar door actually) from the main and made it a prop, and BATted the ground again making sure it was under 20cm (and made it a prop). This was the result.



Ignore the severely tiling textures (and the blue strip I missed), I added them very quickly, I just had to verify that this was going to work. And it did! Let's chuck in a couple more of these  and maybe one of these  . I'm relieved to be able to move forward again.

gottago: As for the "large black entrance" I assume you're referring the large arched wooden door on the main building. This door is almost never opened. The main entrance doesn't really look like a main entrance.



1: Main entrance
2: These doors into the "Cellar Door" are only opened occasionally, usually when there's a few customers.
3: The big door. Usually closed, access into the main building is gained via the sliding doors on either end, or internally.

I do intend though, to separately texture it's three areas (stone/brick/wood) instead of just using the photo texture that's there now. I agree it looks like it should be the main entrance, but it's not.
Which gets me to another question. As far as doors opening is concerned, the sliding doors of the main building are nearly always open. But I made them closed because at night they would be shut. Is it possible to have the door open in the daytime and shut at night?
Thanks again also to joelyboy for his generous offer, but if I'm not mistaken it won't be necessary. 

[gottago]

I'm very glad that it all worked for you and things are back on track.  

Re: your lot textures, there are a lot of good base textures, especially grass, that you can just take and photoshop that wont tile like that--it'll save you lots of trouble, but you've got to open them in the reader and convert them to bmps first. If that sounds like too much trouble, check out the BAT threads here on textures, there is one with tons of links to good free texture sites where you can DL just about anything you'll need.

About the "black hole," I was referring to your #3, the big door. From the pic you just posted I now see it's actually a huge, dark brown wooden door. I'd still model the opening and set it back from the facade, even if you think it should be closed, because just putting a texture on it is not going to give it any depth. You can then inset a plane to hold a texture for the door, which you should make a bit lighter than RL to get some detail showing.

Re: the question of open/closed doors in day/night, frankly you don't want to go there. It can be done but you'll have to export two versions and rebuild the model file's day and night renders in the reader, if I recall correctly. Some BATters do it for making really impressive nightlights, but it's pretty advanced stuff. Doubtless one day I'll try it for a special BAT but I'm sure it's a nightmare the first time trying it, and it's not worth it for such a small detail.

If I were you, instead I'd do something relatively easier--model windows #1 & 2 and inset vertical planes to carry window textures and do a few nightlights instead. SC4 users are real nightlight junkies and you'll get lots of grumbling if you release a BAT that doesn't have some nice night glow coming out of some windows. 

The windows are really dark so just pick out a uniform piece of one in a photo and use it as the day window texture, then create a greyscale version--in this case just a 50% grey image would prolly do, and load it as an alpha map along with the diffuse window texture and set the transparency between 25-50% to allow the nightlights to work.

BTW, that's a really appealing place you've got there--the courtyard looks great in the RL pic.

[kwakelaar]

Looking a lot better, and Matt certainly explained the best way for you to go forward with this BAT.
I can only agree with gottago on his point both about the open/closed doors.
For the grass I would think you don't need to include it in your bat. If you just leave that part open and only render the paving, you can use any grass texture from the LE underneath it.
Also like gottago wrote, you should indeed try to model the windows and doors, giving your bat more depth and the possibility to add night lights.