Menu

LEX File Exchange EA Support Files
SC4 Wikipedia Network Addon Mod
Dependencies Chat

Author Topic: Civil engineering support thread: slope mods, other tools and issues  (Read 80957 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Ennedi

The purpose of this thread is to help you with all actions which can be called "civil engineering" or "civil works" such as:
- Placing transit networks, especially on slopes;
- Making walls, sunken networks, waterfronts and other similar formations;
- preparing the terrain for RCI zoning.

To perform these actions we use various tools, for example:
- Slope Mods, both older ones and the new NHP/Ennedi series
- Diagonal Jagged Edges Mod
- Hole Digging Lots.

As you see , civil engineering in SC4 is a large theme and we (me and other NHP members) think it would be good to speak about it in a complex way.

If you have any problems or questions concerning anything described above, please post them here.
When we will have more particular problems described and solved in this thread, we will create an index in this post.

Adam
« Last Edit: February 15, 2008, 01:23:03 PM by Ennedi »
New Horizons Productions
Berethor - beskhu3epnm - blade2k5 - dmscopio - dedgren - Emilin - Ennedi
jplumbley - moganite - M4346 - nichter85 - papab2000 - Shadow Assassin - Tarkus - wouanagaine

Offline JoeST

  • Forums Guru
  • *
  • Posts: 2649
  • Reputation: 10
  • fbstj
  • CL: Not your average...
Re: Civil engineering support thread: slope mods, other tools and issues
« Reply #1 on: February 16, 2008, 03:35:01 AM »
I am glad I took a look at the LEX today, WOOO, will look at it later after my Uni open day.

And does it still "not work" with most of the holediggers?

Thanks

Joe
Copperminds and Cuddleswarms

Offline Ennedi

Re: Civil engineering support thread: slope mods, other tools and issues
« Reply #2 on: February 16, 2008, 04:16:57 AM »
I am glad I took a look at the LEX today, WOOO, will look at it later after my Uni open day.

And does it still "not work" with most of the holediggers?

Thanks

Joe

1. Joe, using Hole Diggers is described in the new NHP/Ennedi slope mod readme. Yes, if you have this mod installed, you can use only these Hole Digging lots which need a road to work (Ground Lifter, Hole Digger for Sunken, Hole Digger for Road). But:
- You can create a tunnel without a steep slope, so practically you don't need other hole digging tools They were projected specially to increase the slope at the tunnel entrance to enable creating a tunnel. I decreased the necessary slope value in my new slope mod.
- You can create any slope/sunken network/viaduct configuration using only these three Hole Digging Lots listed above. So again you don't need to use other holediggers.

2. We are working on the new Hole Digging lots set in the NHP (it's an idea of Shadow Assassin and he is experimenting with it now). At this moment we can't promise anything, but maybe we will be able to prepare the next nice surprise for  SC4 players?  :)
We want to make the new tool set fully compatible with the slope mod, we also want to adjust slope heights to use transit networks puzzle pieces easier and more comfortable.

Adam
New Horizons Productions
Berethor - beskhu3epnm - blade2k5 - dmscopio - dedgren - Emilin - Ennedi
jplumbley - moganite - M4346 - nichter85 - papab2000 - Shadow Assassin - Tarkus - wouanagaine

Offline JoeST

  • Forums Guru
  • *
  • Posts: 2649
  • Reputation: 10
  • fbstj
  • CL: Not your average...
Re: Civil engineering support thread: slope mods, other tools and issues
« Reply #3 on: February 16, 2008, 04:21:28 AM »
indeed, I read the readme LOL, just DatPacking the newly installed stuff... Will try it out in a nice big slopey city

and yeah.... once again I am not a good chooser... WHICH ONE???? LOL, chose the medium one cause it sounded middle groundish

cant wait for the new HoleDiggers, sounds like you guys are gona be pwning the civil engineering side of SC4

Joe
Copperminds and Cuddleswarms

Offline Ennedi

Re: Civil engineering support thread: slope mods, other tools and issues
« Reply #4 on: February 16, 2008, 04:49:29 AM »
and yeah.... once again I am not a good chooser... WHICH ONE???? LOL, chose the medium one cause it sounded middle groundish

I can't help you because I don't know your map  :D
I think the Medium version is a good choice at the beginning. But I can give you a little advice:
- If you (or somebody else) like the Smooth version very much, you can use it on a flat terrain or very soft slopes extensively, and when you will meet a few more steep slopes, you can temporarily replace the Smooth version by the Medium or Mount one, make these few necessary steep road stretches and then come back to your favourite version  ;D. Changing the slope mod you will not cause any damages in your formerly created networks.

Edit: The newly uploaded Slope mod is not the same as the previous one in my MD! I improved many things in it. I changed the Smooth version too, I decreasing the Max Slope Along Network for all networks. As Yoman suggested in my MD, I worked even more with the rail look, I hope it is satisfying yet.
So you can find the Smooth version even more challenging than the previous one. But everything is a question of your creativity, all problems can be solved - with the slope mod or without it  :D
« Last Edit: February 16, 2008, 04:57:15 AM by Ennedi »
New Horizons Productions
Berethor - beskhu3epnm - blade2k5 - dmscopio - dedgren - Emilin - Ennedi
jplumbley - moganite - M4346 - nichter85 - papab2000 - Shadow Assassin - Tarkus - wouanagaine

Offline JoeST

  • Forums Guru
  • *
  • Posts: 2649
  • Reputation: 10
  • fbstj
  • CL: Not your average...
Re: Civil engineering support thread: slope mods, other tools and issues
« Reply #5 on: February 16, 2008, 04:55:24 AM »
I just tested it out... and at crossroads onslope, the downwards slopes created from the flat platforms were very angular... might have been because they were attached to other angles further down the slope, and for some reason I didnt notice much road "waves". and I LOL at the fact that to get from the top of the hill to the bottom covers half the map... hehehe

overall it is very very nice tho  :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Joe
Copperminds and Cuddleswarms

Offline Ennedi

Re: Civil engineering support thread: slope mods, other tools and issues
« Reply #6 on: February 16, 2008, 05:05:18 AM »
I just tested it out... and at crossroads onslope, the downwards slopes created from the flat platforms were very angular... might have been because they were attached to other angles further down the slope (...)

Sometimes you can force the network to connect with another stretch in an angular way, especially if you "block" another end of the network stretch. But it can be avoided.
Anyway, I know that it takes some time, but it would be much better to show some pictures! An illustrated problem and explanation are more clear and valuable for others!  :)
New Horizons Productions
Berethor - beskhu3epnm - blade2k5 - dmscopio - dedgren - Emilin - Ennedi
jplumbley - moganite - M4346 - nichter85 - papab2000 - Shadow Assassin - Tarkus - wouanagaine

Offline JoeST

  • Forums Guru
  • *
  • Posts: 2649
  • Reputation: 10
  • fbstj
  • CL: Not your average...
Re: Civil engineering support thread: slope mods, other tools and issues
« Reply #7 on: February 16, 2008, 05:14:44 AM »
shouldnt take much time with my reduced testing plugins

OH NO.... RHW doesnt seem to be working...  woops, forgot that NAM loads after LOL

but luckily the angled thing was fixed... no point for pictures

Joe
Copperminds and Cuddleswarms

Offline Gaston

  • 3RR Team
  • Forums Senator
  • *
  • Posts: 912
  • Reputation: 7
  • Cry Havoc! ...
  • CL: Solid Citizen ()monocule()
Re: Civil engineering support thread: slope mods, other tools and issues
« Reply #8 on: February 16, 2008, 08:38:06 AM »
okay a couple of noobish questions.

1.   Where in plugins should this load?

2.   Should I search and remove any other slope mods?    (I'm thinkng yes to this one.)



---Gaston
白龍

They say that the memory is the second thing that goes....
...dang , I wish I could remember the first.
WooHoo made Councilman - 05 FEB 07 Yipee made Mayor - 13 MAR 07 Hip Hip Hooray made Governor - 04 AUG 07 Rock On made Senator - 15 MAR 09

Offline beskhu3epnm

  • Moderator
  • Forums Governor
  • *
  • Posts: 348
  • Reputation: 11
  • New Horizons Productions September 6, 2006
Re: Civil engineering support thread: slope mods, other tools and issues
« Reply #9 on: February 16, 2008, 09:24:34 AM »
For number 1, item should be placed in the main folder or a subfolder under My Documents>SimCity 4>Plugins. I'm hoping that was what the question was!

For number 2, if you have a slope mod previously installed, the game will selectively pick whichever mod loads last (usually alphabetical). It is best to remove any current slope mods, as to avoid redundant loading of plugins, as well as to ensure proper functionality of Ennedi's slope mod.
http://sc4devotion.com/forums/index.php?board=79.0
New Horizons Productions Berethor ♦ beskhu3epnm ♦ blade2k5 ♦ dmscopio dedgren ♦ Ennedi ♦ Heblem ♦ jplumbley ♦ moganite M4346 ♦ Shadow Assassin ♦ Tarkus ♦ wouanagaine

Offline Ennedi

Re: Civil engineering support thread: slope mods, other tools and issues
« Reply #10 on: February 16, 2008, 09:33:35 AM »
okay a couple of noobish questions.

1.   Where in plugins should this load?

2.   Should I search and remove any other slope mods?    (I'm thinkng yes to this one.)

---Gaston


It is better to answer for the second question first  ;)
ad 2. Yes, you should remove other slope mods from your plugins folder.
The slope mod - as most other mods - modifies values in so called exemplar files which are present in the simcity1.dat. Exemplar files consist a group of parameters dedicated to particular game aspects/parts. The slope mod modifies exemplars called "Street [Road, avenue etc...] Placement tuning parameters". There is one exemplar of this type for each transit network including RHW (it is called "Dirt Road" in Maxis simcity1 file).
The game reads values from simcity1.dat first (simcity1 - simcity5 are Maxis files). Then it reads values from Plugins folders (first from the C/Program Files/Maxis, then from My Documents/Simcity 4 ie. from the place when you put your custom content).
If you have two mods modifying the same exemplar in your Plugins, the game will read them in the alphabetical order (it is a bit more complicated if you have subfolders in your Plugins) and it will use values from the last one (reading values the game overwrites previous values). If your Plugins folder is not well ordered, you will not know which plugin is the source of values used by the game.

There are no other mods using the same exemplars as the slope mod at this moment (Edit: it is not quite true, please read Tarkus' post below!). But you should use only one slope mod version at a time.
As I know every existing slope mod has "slope" in it's name, so it should be easy to search them. Maybe it would be good to search also the word "tunnel".

My description is detailed because the same mechanism works with other mods, so it is good to know these principles.

ad 1. It would be wise to make a subfolder called "Slope Mod" and put your mod to this subfolder. This way you will haven't any trouble if you will change your slope mod as I suggested in my previous posts.


Edit: Thank you Travis (beskhu3epnm) for your help!  :thumbsup:
You posted your answer when I prepared mine  :D however I will leave it as is, maybe it will be good for somebody to read two different explanations  ;)
« Last Edit: February 17, 2008, 02:25:05 AM by Ennedi »
New Horizons Productions
Berethor - beskhu3epnm - blade2k5 - dmscopio - dedgren - Emilin - Ennedi
jplumbley - moganite - M4346 - nichter85 - papab2000 - Shadow Assassin - Tarkus - wouanagaine

Offline Gaston

  • 3RR Team
  • Forums Senator
  • *
  • Posts: 912
  • Reputation: 7
  • Cry Havoc! ...
  • CL: Solid Citizen ()monocule()
Re: Civil engineering support thread: slope mods, other tools and issues
« Reply #11 on: February 16, 2008, 06:56:58 PM »
Thanks for the quick responses.   
It is better to answer for the second question first  ;)
ad 2. Yes, you should remove other slope mods from your plugins folder.
The slope mod - as most other mods - modifies values in so called exemplar files which are present in the simcity1.dat. Exemplar files consist a group of parameters dedicated to particular game aspects/parts. The slope mod modifies exemplars called "Street [Road, avenue etc...] Placement tuning parameters". There is one exemplar of this type for each transit network including RHW (it is called "Dirt Road" in Maxis simcity1 file).
Okay,   I removed the BRF slope mod.       I kinda figured that I had to do that.    ;D
Quote
ad 1. It would be wise to make a subfolder called "Slope Mod" and put your mod to this subfolder. This way you will haven't any trouble if you will change your slope mod as I suggested in my previous posts.

I think I should have phrased my question as "Does this have to load in a specific order within the plugins?   ie. before NAM, after SAM, etc.

Quote
Edit: Thank you Travis (beskhu3epnm) for your help!  :thumbsup:
You posted your answer when I prepared mine  :D however I will leave it as is, maybe it will be good for somebody to read two different explanations  ;)

Thank you as well Travis.


---Gaston
白龍

They say that the memory is the second thing that goes....
...dang , I wish I could remember the first.
WooHoo made Councilman - 05 FEB 07 Yipee made Mayor - 13 MAR 07 Hip Hip Hooray made Governor - 04 AUG 07 Rock On made Senator - 15 MAR 09

Offline Shadow Assassin

  • NAM Team
  • Forums Guru
  • *
  • Posts: 3232
  • Reputation: 25
  • Needs more cowbell.
  • CL: The Grid Reaper
Re: Civil engineering support thread: slope mods, other tools and issues
« Reply #12 on: February 16, 2008, 07:54:35 PM »
I'd recommend that the slope mod loads after the NAM. Even though the NAM doesn't actually have the Road Tuning Parameters in any of its files, it's still recommended anyway to make sure the slope mod works.
New Horizons Productions
Berethor ♦ beskhu3epnm ♦ blade2k5 ♦ dedgren ♦ dmscopio ♦ Ennedi
emilin ♦ Heblem ♦ jplumbley ♦ moganite ♦ M4346 ♦ papab2000
Shadow Assassin ♦ Tarkus ♦ wouanagaine
See my uploads on the LEX!

Offline Tarkus

  • Administrator
  • Forums Legend
  • *
  • Posts: 11337
  • Reputation: 70
  • NAM Team Tankadillo
    • NAM HQ
  • CL: Dr. PuzzlePiece
Re: Civil engineering support thread: slope mods, other tools and issues
« Reply #13 on: February 16, 2008, 07:57:52 PM »
The RHW does actually have the DirtRoad Tuning Parameters included in its main files, though, so it needs to load after the NAM if you have the RHW installed.  Come to think of it, though, I believe the Tuning Parameters being included in the RHW file are a holdover from RHW v12, when qurlix edited the draw speed to compensate from the lag induced by the lack of end stub paths.  So, I'll be taking it out for v21 and then it shouldn't matter where you have the slope mod. ;)

-Alex (Tarkus)

Offline DFire870

  • Forums Governor
  • *
  • Posts: 340
  • Reputation: 1
    • Wzzt Network
Re: Civil engineering support thread: slope mods, other tools and issues
« Reply #14 on: February 23, 2008, 02:09:09 PM »
Ooh, another slope mod! This is great, but I have a question...

How does this new slope mod compare to the other slope mods out there? I've always wanted to know this since there are quite a few out there, and each of them produces a different slope.

-- John
After a long absence, I'm back! And I will be starting a new MD soon.

Offline Ennedi

Re: Civil engineering support thread: slope mods, other tools and issues
« Reply #15 on: February 23, 2008, 03:27:04 PM »
Ooh, another slope mod! This is great, but I have a question...

How does this new slope mod compare to the other slope mods out there? I've always wanted to know this since there are quite a few out there, and each of them produces a different slope.
-- John

The table below shows two network placing parameters values: Max Slope Along Network and Max Slope Change for all my slope mods and for two most popular other ones - bones1 and BRF JRJ. You can find this table in my slope mod zip too  ;)



The main difference between my slope mods and other ones is in the Max Slope Change value. It is about 3,5-6x lower than the Max Slope Along Network in my mods, and it is higher than the Max Slope in other mods. This parameter is responsible for the network smoothness in my mods (but it also causes using them more challenging).
These two parameters ar important, but not only ones. I started to create a large Excel table (all placing network parameters, all networks, all existing slope mods) to compare them all. I need some time to fill them. When I will do it, I will upload the table in this thread (it is too large to simply make a picture of it).
Here is a part of this table (all parameters and a few slope mods values for road).




New Horizons Productions
Berethor - beskhu3epnm - blade2k5 - dmscopio - dedgren - Emilin - Ennedi
jplumbley - moganite - M4346 - nichter85 - papab2000 - Shadow Assassin - Tarkus - wouanagaine

Offline DFire870

  • Forums Governor
  • *
  • Posts: 340
  • Reputation: 1
    • Wzzt Network
Re: Civil engineering support thread: slope mods, other tools and issues
« Reply #16 on: February 23, 2008, 03:48:46 PM »
Ah, okay, that clears things up a bit. But just to make sure, does that mean that the smooth version of your mod (ENN_Smooth212) is the smoothest of the ones you compared?

-- John
After a long absence, I'm back! And I will be starting a new MD soon.

Offline Ennedi

Re: Civil engineering support thread: slope mods, other tools and issues
« Reply #17 on: February 23, 2008, 05:47:20 PM »
Ah, okay, that clears things up a bit. But just to make sure, does that mean that the smooth version of your mod (ENN_Smooth212) is the smoothest of the ones you compared?

-- John

Yes it is. I made even more smooth one, but it is also the most difficult to use. A few experienced players (like Shadow Assassin) like it, but I didn't release it because I didn't know if anybody would be interested in it.
New Horizons Productions
Berethor - beskhu3epnm - blade2k5 - dmscopio - dedgren - Emilin - Ennedi
jplumbley - moganite - M4346 - nichter85 - papab2000 - Shadow Assassin - Tarkus - wouanagaine

Offline Gaston

  • 3RR Team
  • Forums Senator
  • *
  • Posts: 912
  • Reputation: 7
  • Cry Havoc! ...
  • CL: Solid Citizen ()monocule()
Re: Civil engineering support thread: slope mods, other tools and issues
« Reply #18 on: February 23, 2008, 05:50:16 PM »
I really like this new slope mod.    I have only one issue with it.    That issue is that I can't use all the "hole digging" lots.   I didn't realize I used them as much as I do.    Is there anyway a patch could be written that would allow thier use?



---Gaston
白龍

They say that the memory is the second thing that goes....
...dang , I wish I could remember the first.
WooHoo made Councilman - 05 FEB 07 Yipee made Mayor - 13 MAR 07 Hip Hip Hooray made Governor - 04 AUG 07 Rock On made Senator - 15 MAR 09

Offline Ennedi

Re: Civil engineering support thread: slope mods, other tools and issues
« Reply #19 on: February 23, 2008, 06:06:15 PM »
I really like this new slope mod.    I have only one issue with it.    That issue is that I can't use all the "hole digging" lots.   I didn't realize I used them as much as I do.    Is there anyway a patch could be written that would allow thier use?
---Gaston

1. You can make everything you need - viaducts, sunken networks, tunnel entrances - using only two Hole Digging pieces: Ground Lifter and Hole Digger for Sunken. You don't need another Hole Digging Lots. Their purpose is to create tunnels and they increase the slope grade at the projected tunnel entrance. With my slope mods you don't need to do it, you can create tunnels on the moderate slope, it is showed in the readme.

2. Shadow Assassin is working on the new Hole Diggers set. It will give more possibilities than the old one. When it will be released, we will show some pictures how to use my slope mods and these new Hole Diggers together.
New Horizons Productions
Berethor - beskhu3epnm - blade2k5 - dmscopio - dedgren - Emilin - Ennedi
jplumbley - moganite - M4346 - nichter85 - papab2000 - Shadow Assassin - Tarkus - wouanagaine