Sim City 4 Devotion Forums

SimCity 4 Devotion Custom Content Showcase => Network Addon Mod (NAM) => NAM Creations => Topic started by: sollord on October 27, 2007, 07:24:14 PM

Title: GLR Ave Request - Roundabout
Post by: sollord on October 27, 2007, 07:24:14 PM
Any chance of getting a GLR Ave roundabout with a station or crossover in the middle? I figure since the roundabout is in nam some glr related ones would be pretty nice and useful if possible  ()what()
Midland Metro tram in england (http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Wolverhampton,+United+Kingdom&ie=UTF8&ll=52.58357,-2.121123&spn=0.001949,0.004844&t=k&z=18&om=1)

South Melbourne (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&time=&date=&ttype=&q=South+Melbourne,+Victoria,+Australia&ie=UTF8&ll=-37.755104,144.920568&spn=0.002536,0.004844&t=k&z=18&om=1)

Flemington Junction -.- (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&time=&date=&ttype=&q=Flemington+Rd,+Melbourne+VIC+3000,+Australia&sll=-37.814251,144.963169&sspn=0.040548,0.077505&ie=UTF8&cd=2&geocode=0,-37.800498,144.956103&ll=-37.801375,144.95769&spn=0.002535,0.004844&t=h&z=18&iwloc=addr&om=1)

Powstańców Śląskich Roundabout, Wroclaw, Poland (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&time=&date=&ttype=&q=Wroc%C5%82aw,+Poland&ie=UTF8&ll=51.090242,17.01705&spn=0.00403,0.009688&t=k&z=17&iwloc=addr&om=1)

University of Utah (http://maps.google.com/maps?q=University+of+Utah&ie=UTF8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&ll=40.759586,-111.844602&spn=0.00243,0.004844&t=k&z=18&om=1&layer=t)
Title: Re: GLR Ave Request - Roundabout
Post by: Jonathan on October 28, 2007, 03:50:24 AM
So something like this?
(http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa230/warriorST/GLRaveS.jpg)
or this?
(http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa230/warriorST/GLRaveX.jpg)
or this?
(http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa230/warriorST/GLRaveT.jpg)
Title: Re: GLR Ave Request - Roundabout
Post by: Shadow Assassin on October 28, 2007, 03:55:07 AM
This would be ideal for stations, you know. :P
Title: Re: GLR Ave Request - Roundabout
Post by: Jonathan on October 28, 2007, 03:58:06 AM
They are just textures and would seriously need improvement.
Title: Re: GLR Ave Request - Roundabout
Post by: Crissa on October 28, 2007, 07:20:17 AM
Wouldn't you have room for a wider turn in the middle, if you were going to do that?

A roundabout doesn't really include the center tile, unless it's a road or street round, so really only one roundabout would be needed, then you could have a 2-tile station or intersection to fill the center.  Conservation of textures, of course.

-Crissa
Title: Re: GLR Ave Request - Roundabout
Post by: Jonathan on October 28, 2007, 01:19:04 PM
There were going to be bigger turns. This will probably be completed when/if ave/glr is made draggable
I'll expand on this post when i get home.
Title: Re: GLR Ave Request - Roundabout
Post by: Diggis on October 28, 2007, 01:59:52 PM
This would be ideal for stations, you know. :P

I'm confused as to peoples fixation with Stations in the centre of Roundabouts.  Surely that would require a crossing, which you defeat the purpose of the roundabout.
Title: Re: GLR Ave Request - Roundabout
Post by: Jonathan on October 28, 2007, 04:35:00 PM
Now I'm off my phone and on my PC I can type properly.
The junctions and turns will/should be the same radius as the Ave/GLR turns and junctions.(4 tiles)
A puzzle piece in the center is the most likely option, of intergrating it into the game.
If these puzzle pieces are made before draggable GLR/Ave is (or if it isn't going to be made) they will have to be seperate puzzle pieces.
They would be ideal for stations, however some underpass or overpass would be required.
Title: Re: GLR Ave Request - Roundabout
Post by: DFire870 on October 28, 2007, 05:31:29 PM
I'm confused as to peoples fixation with Stations in the centre of Roundabouts.  Surely that would require a crossing, which you defeat the purpose of the roundabout.

You could have pedestrian bridges or tunnels to get to the station. I would hope that no one would have a crossing in an avenue roundabout. That would be murder.
Title: Re: GLR Ave Request - Roundabout
Post by: BigSlark on October 28, 2007, 06:05:21 PM
I have to agree with diggis, it just doesn't seem to be that good of an idea as the infrastructure costs would be very high. Now as an interchange station that would make sense, however, an interchange station where two paths cross each other is in clear violation of the "new" rules that mott has so kindly researched for TE'ing in general...

Cheers,
Kevin
Title: Re: GLR Ave Request - Roundabout
Post by: Palpatine001 on October 28, 2007, 06:27:41 PM
Mechanics of this aside

Wouldn't this create a head ache for road traffic, we have a heavy rail line that runs through a major roundabout in New Lynn and boy does it create havoc when a passenger or even worse a freight train runs through it at rush hour  &Thk/(
Title: Re: GLR Ave Request - Roundabout
Post by: sollord on October 28, 2007, 10:26:35 PM
It really doesn't matter as glr in and ave cross intersections all the time and there puzzle pieces for it in game. I just figured this would be kinda cool. Station might not be a good idea but a tram running through a roundabout isn't all that uncommon and can't be any more troublesome then a tram running through a 4way intersection
Title: Re: GLR Ave Request - Roundabout
Post by: RippleJet on October 29, 2007, 01:54:32 AM
Wouldn't this create a head ache for road traffic, we have a heavy rail line that runs through a major roundabout in New Lynn and boy does it create havoc when a passenger or even worse a freight train runs through it at rush hour  &Thk/(

But you wouldn't see a heavy freight train running down the tram track... $%Grinno$%
Title: Re: GLR Ave Request - Roundabout
Post by: Palpatine001 on October 29, 2007, 03:25:03 AM
But you wouldn't see a heavy freight train running down the tram track... $%Grinno$%

Yeah thats true I suppose
Just really never saw the use for GLR, too much of a heavy rail fan I suppose

However the concept is great if some one were to create it, just have to update my Roundabout fillers thats all  &mmm
Title: Re: GLR Ave Request - Roundabout
Post by: jplumbley on October 29, 2007, 01:43:32 PM
This will definately create a BIG potential for TE LOT/Puzzle Piece CTD.  GLR in AVE at AVE Roundabout Intersections will be required to be puzzle pieces.  Since, this is will have to be a puzzle piece (a circle) and you want to put a TE Lot Station in the middle... you will not have a clear space to enter the middle of the intersection with your TE Lot (station), therefore CTD when the Station touches the Roundabout.
Title: Re: GLR Ave Request - Roundabout
Post by: M4346 on October 29, 2007, 02:01:51 PM
Can't you make a 4x4 avenue roundabout station? In such a way it won't be necessary for one to place a station in the roundabout. Is that what you meant JPlumbley?
Title: Re: GLR Ave Request - Roundabout
Post by: Andreas on October 29, 2007, 02:42:08 PM
Can't you make a 4x4 avenue roundabout station? In such a way it won't be necessary for one to place a station in the roundabout. Is that what you meant JPlumbley?

No, you can't. You can "fake" something like this, but no lot will ever behave like a true network piece (draggable or puzzle piece). For a complicated setup like a GLR/Avenue roundabout, a lot would trash the entire pathfinding simulator. As said before, a station within a roundabout is pretty pointless anyway. It would require pedestrian underpasses or overpasses, which is not really possible to achieve in the game.
Title: Re: GLR Ave Request - Roundabout
Post by: M4346 on October 29, 2007, 02:53:48 PM
Ah, okay. So this is really an exercise in futility? :(
Title: Re: GLR Ave Request - Roundabout
Post by: rushman5 on October 29, 2007, 04:27:40 PM
Does anyone remember that "World Plaza" that was on the Stex a while ago? (Xyloxadoria)
(http://www.stexserver.com/lots/xyloxadoria/xyloxadoria_world%20plaza/Roundabout11%2EJPG)
It had overhanging props.  That kind of work would be capable in getting the pedestrians around.  Also, this could be a bus-subway transition.  That might be more practical.
Title: Re: GLR Ave Request - Roundabout
Post by: jplumbley on October 29, 2007, 08:46:33 PM
Ah, okay. So this is really an exercise in futility? :(

This is what I was trying to say, yes it is essentiallly futile.
Title: Re: GLR Ave Request - Roundabout
Post by: Tarkus on October 29, 2007, 09:21:11 PM
rushman5, the bridges on that plaza could never work to carry pedestrian traffic.  The tiles are overhanging, and the lot exemplars are scaled to fit the non-overhanging size (2x2) and as a result, the tiles occupied by the overhang are not defined, meaning that they cannot be pathed.   The overhang is merely eyecandy.

Hope that answers your question.

-Alex (Tarkus)
Title: Re: GLR Ave Request - Roundabout
Post by: M4346 on October 30, 2007, 03:31:28 AM
Okay, I might sound stupid and clueless here, but hear me out (and ignore if it's ignorant :P)

Can't you create a 4x4 BAT / LOT with the necessary textures and paths to create a station and avenue roundabout? I mean, include the paths for road traffic and GLR?
Title: Re: GLR Ave Request - Roundabout
Post by: Andreas on October 30, 2007, 06:10:56 AM
I thought I already explained that... No, you can't, since a lot is not a network tile. A lot will stay a lot, transit enabled and pathed or not...
Title: Re: GLR Ave Request - Roundabout
Post by: M4346 on October 30, 2007, 06:20:23 AM
Okay, then scratch the LOT part. Maybe I am just not familiar with how network puzzle-pieces work, such as the GLR and Avenue Roundabout pieces, but they are not LOTs, right?

So, can you make an avenue roundabout puzzle piece that is modded / pathed / whatever'ed to carry GLR and Road traffic, like the avenue GLR.

That is what I mean. And please, excuse my lack of firm grasp of the concepts at hand, but as I've said I'm not the in-house transit 'geek'.

Also, sorry if I pissed you off Andreas.  &Thk/(
Title: Re: GLR Ave Request - Roundabout
Post by: Shadow Assassin on October 30, 2007, 06:29:15 AM
Yeah, of course!

It's just a bit harder to do, because it's a dual-network puzzle piece. :P
Title: Re: GLR Ave Request - Roundabout
Post by: M4346 on October 30, 2007, 06:34:11 AM
That is what I was referring to!  &idea Dual Network Puzzle Piece!

But you can't let this dual network piece be a station? It's just a network piece? Stations are modded to be, well, stations?
Title: Re: GLR Ave Request - Roundabout
Post by: Shadow Assassin on October 30, 2007, 06:37:53 AM
It can't be a station, because a network piece cannot have additional properties like lots can. But on the other hand, a transit-enabled lot CAN be made as a GLR station, but it would require custom paths before it could work.

They are lots that are modded to give an appearence that they're functional stations.
Title: Re: GLR Ave Request - Roundabout
Post by: M4346 on October 30, 2007, 06:47:58 AM
Ah, yes, that I do understand. Thanks SA.  ;D
Title: Re: GLR Ave Request - Roundabout
Post by: Andreas on October 30, 2007, 06:49:39 AM
Also, sorry if I pissed you off Andreas.  &Thk/(

Nah, you didn't. :) But I suggest to take a look at mott's thread about transit enabled lots and the pathfinding engine: http://sc4devotion.com/forums/index.php?topic=2763.0
Title: Re: GLR Ave Request - Roundabout
Post by: Shadow Assassin on October 30, 2007, 06:51:06 AM
Seeing as the lot is 2x2, I don't think there'd be many issues with Sims taking shortcuts (well, if cars and buses are blocked from entering the station so it's pedestrian and GLR only, it should be fine)...
Title: Re: GLR Ave Request - Roundabout
Post by: M4346 on October 30, 2007, 06:59:19 AM
Yes, I understand that Andreas and I'm not propagating TE'ing the LOT, I'm just trying to understand the basic functioning of these things. :)

And SA, as JP pointed out previously, TE'ing the LOT is rather dangerous due to the CTD phenomenon. So I don't think it's feasible to put a station in the middle. At least, from what I've gathered.
Title: Re: GLR Ave Request - Roundabout
Post by: Shadow Assassin on October 30, 2007, 07:00:10 AM
Quote
TE'ing the LOT is rather dangerous due to the CTD phenomenon.

Only if you plop the TE lot BEFORE you plop the puzzle pieces. You shouldn't have too much of an issue if you do that.

I don't particularly like transit-enabling, but in some situations, it's unavoidable.
Title: Re: GLR Ave Request - Roundabout
Post by: jplumbley on October 30, 2007, 07:08:13 AM
Seeing as the lot is 2x2, I don't think there'd be many issues with Sims taking shortcuts (well, if cars and buses are blocked from entering the station so it's pedestrian and GLR only, it should be fine)...

This still doesnt get around the issue of the CTD from Puzzle Piece / TE Lot...  Its a circle in which you would have to place a TE Lot in the middle or vice versa.  There is no way to put that TE Lot in the middle without causing the CTD by touching the Puzzle Piece.  It is a physical limitation that we cannot get around.

If you want a Station in the middle of the Roundabout, there are two ways to do this.

1.  Build a TE Lot for the entire Roundabout, but this will cause issues with the Pathfinding as stated by Mott in his discoveries.  (Not recommended at all.)

2.  Find a way to make the Avenue Roundabout draggable.  Tropod has expressed to me that he believes there is a way (he doesnt know the way) but there could be a way to make it draggable.  Of course, this is currently not being worked on and there is much to learn about it before it will happen.

In conclusion... A station inside an Avenue Roundabout will not happen for quite sometime unless you want it to cause issues in game play.  Something, no decent modder will attempt knowing the limitations and the effects of the LOT.
Title: Re: GLR Ave Request - Roundabout
Post by: Shadow Assassin on October 30, 2007, 07:10:06 AM
Quote
There is no way to put that TE Lot in the middle without causing the CTD by touching the Puzzle Piece.  It is a physical limitation that we cannot get around.

Isn't it supposed to be the other way around? I've accidentally hovered TE'd lots over puzzle pieces and it's never crashed for me.
Title: Re: GLR Ave Request - Roundabout
Post by: jplumbley on October 30, 2007, 07:22:15 AM
Alot of the CTD issues from GLR (when it was ploppable) came from both situations.  When either plopping a puzzle piece or a station.

Ive hit Subway Stations with my GLR puzzle piece when trying to plop the track and gotten CTD.

Ive hit a GLR puzzle piece when trying to place the station and gotten CTD.

I dont think it happens every single time but the percentage is just WAY too large for it to not cause people to outcry.  People still complain about the CTD when using GLR... But that is because they are not using the new Draggable GLR, their own fault.  You can test it...  Make a TE Lot and then plop your roundabout and test it both ways.  It it crashes then its not worth the effort.
Title: Re: GLR Ave Request - Roundabout
Post by: M4346 on October 30, 2007, 07:23:58 AM
Isn't it supposed to be the other way around?

Yes, it has only happened to me when I hover puzzle pieces over TE'd LOTs...  %wrd

EDIT: But yeah, do as JP suggests... :P Make it and test it!  :D
Title: Re: GLR Ave Request - Roundabout
Post by: RippleJet on October 30, 2007, 08:24:36 AM
You can test it...  Make a TE Lot and then plop your roundabout and test it both ways.  It it crashes then its not worth the effort.

Eh, in addition to causing a CTD, you wouldn't even be able plop an avenue roundabout on top of an existing 2×2 lot. $%Grinno$%
Title: Re: GLR Ave Request - Roundabout
Post by: M4346 on October 30, 2007, 08:35:30 AM
You would, but you won't be able to delete it from the city ever :P
Title: Re: GLR Ave Request - Roundabout
Post by: Tarkus on October 30, 2007, 04:13:49 PM
RippleJet's right.  The center grass tiles on the Avenue Roundabout puzzle piece are actually part of the puzzle piece's definition in the RUL file.  The surface area of the Avenue Roundabout puzzle piece will always be in contact with a station.

As far as making the Avenue Roundabout draggable, the Avenue network's RULs are just an absolute mess to work with because of the fact that it is a 2-tile network and has all those pesky Median Flags.  There may be ways to do it with another network, however. ;)

-Alex (Tarkus)
Title: Re: GLR Ave Request - Roundabout
Post by: rickmastfan67 on October 30, 2007, 04:18:22 PM
There may be ways to do it with another network, however. ;)

Let me guess, the OWR? ;)
Title: Re: GLR Ave Request - Roundabout
Post by: rushman5 on October 30, 2007, 07:24:12 PM
Yeah, tarkus, I agree with the draggable dual-network through the station.  We just aren't there with modding yet.
rushman5, the bridges on that plaza could never work to carry pedestrian traffic.  The tiles are overhanging, and the lot exemplars are scaled to fit the non-overhanging size (2x2) and as a result, the tiles occupied by the overhang are not defined, meaning that they cannot be pathed.   The overhang is merely eyecandy.


I realize this, but am saying that it would visually work if you didn't care about moving people props.  I'm sure we could engineer overhanging animation props exclusively for it.  It would be a hassle, though, and is probably not worth it.  All in all, I do this that this idea is a forseeable one, and both sides of the argument over ligtimacy can be answered with a simple BETA test. (I am willing to volunteer)
Title: Re: GLR Ave Request - Roundabout
Post by: Tarkus on October 30, 2007, 08:56:18 PM
Yes, rushman5, it would work as eyecandy.  As far as what I meant in terms of the pedestrians, I wasn't so much referring to the visual effect of moving people, but rather, that from a transit perspective, pedestrian traffic be "stranded" on the center island of the roundabout since there would be no way to provide a functional crossing for them.

-Alex (Tarkus)