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BSC - VIP team - Girafe's skills on the BAT

Started by Girafe, July 22, 2009, 01:58:11 PM

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SimFox

Nice trees you've got here &apls

I was looking through the pages of this thread and thought of few advises to make trees look better.

I see in the process you've moved to 3ds max. I also see that you Bat4Max isn't set quite right. Things are too dark. There is a bug in some version of Max (or Max script) the program doesn't pick up settings made for Gamma correction made by script. They are there, if you open Gamma and LUT tab in Preferences (found in Customize menu) you'll see that everything is right, so you don't need (if you use Max 2010) to alter anything just click on OK and than you should see the difference.

As I've said I thought of few advises... Well some of them were partially realized simply by virtue of switching to bat4Max. yet - those (although to the good) are automatic changes. Project like a tree requires some custom ones. The basic problem with you GMAX exports were (well one that could have been fixed in GMAX) that you've rendered trees against black background. Despite of disabled antialiasing some of that black still creeps in. So foliage had that nasty black outline. Bat4max sets neutral grey as a background color, It it far better than black, still not optimal... With it in same instance you may even have light outline... So the best solution would be to set the background color to about darkest color found in the foliage itself. This way it will blend seamlessly.

Another thing is materials. For foliage to look good you can't simply put some color (although I must commend you on the choice you have made - it looks both natural and in line with the game). It will look flat.
First of all I would strongly suggest to use ONLY Arch&Design materials for anything you do in Max. There are some other specialized and good materials, but you'll know when you'll need them. For anything else just use Arch&Design. And Don't use Standard - those are no good really for anything.
Once you select you Arch&Design you should give your leafs some reflections - everything in the world has some. To make it manageable set it to Highlight and FG only and play with Strength (between 0,2 and 0,6) and Glossiness (,25 - ,5). BDRF or the dependence of view angle that is default at the Arch&Design should be fine for leafs.

You could also turn on Ambient Occlusion. it will help definitions.
Also you may adjust how FG reacts with leafs. Set it (in Object Properties Mental Ray Tab) to return Black. This will  make render much faster and, again give you better definition in the foliage.

In effect those settings - reflectivity of the material, and setting AO and FG will increase contrast and give foliage more 3d look. And you'll need quite a bit more of a contrast once you set you gamma right.

Girafe

#121
Thanks for going there Simfox and for your comment and your pieces of advice.

At first I don't know exactly what happened with my max and BAT4max but I surely have problems with the both.

I work in 3dsmax2010 in french version so each time I open a model I must to correct settings in going to Gamma and LUT tab in Preferences (found in Customize menu) and click OK.

For time I discover 3dsmax and have not lot of time to try every possibility but I have to do  ::)

For the background, if I have well understood I must to pick the darkest color of foliage and to put it as background color but in 3dsmax or in gmax or both ?

Which concerns materials I must to switch to Arch and design materials but after for the foliage do you have pieces of advice or more specificities ?

At the end, what lights do you recommand ?
After I will try all your recommandations and  see what the best things I will put progress if there is in this topic and ask you questions if I need.

In all cases thank you so much for your comment  :)

The little Girafe

ps : why did you choice to export your trees in SD ?
The Floraler

This is the end, hold your breath and count to ten, feel the earth move, and then...

*   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *    *   *   *   *   *    * 

SimFox

Quote from: Girafe on April 29, 2010, 06:40:12 AM
Thanks for going there Simfox and for your comment and your pieces of advice.

well, the pleasure was mine! :)

Quote from: Girafe on April 29, 2010, 06:40:12 AM
I work in 3dsmax2010 in french version so each time I open a model I must to correct settings in going to Gamma and LUT tab in Preferences (found in Customize menu) and click OK.

I hope I understnd you correct... You would need to do that - open Gamma and LUT settings and press OK ONLY once. after that Max will remember it.

Quote from: Girafe on April 29, 2010, 06:40:12 AM
For the background, if I have well understood I must to pick the darkest color of foliage and to put it as background color but in 3dsmax or in gmax or both ?

Yep you have understood me right. But you should do it AFTER you settle you gamma issue. As for what program you should do it - only one from which you'll be doing final export. To put in in another way if you use Max you need only be concerned with Max. GMAX in that bind only create the shell of the file. The actual images in it will be from MAX.

Quote from: Girafe on April 29, 2010, 06:40:12 AM
Which concerns materials I must to switch to Arch and design materials but after for the foliage do you have pieces of advice or more specificities ?

all.

Quote from: Girafe on April 29, 2010, 06:40:12 AM
At the end, what lights do you recommand ?
It depends a bit what exactly for. Generally if your computer is powerfull enough I would go for Photometric ones - you'll never get same near perfect blending of multiple lights with standard ones. But Photometrics may take a bit longer to render. However in Max2010 there are ways to shorten the process - now you can manually set far attenuation - the farthes limt you light will affect. This way by sacrificing imperceivable realism and accuracy you can save toms of render time.

Quote from: Girafe on April 29, 2010, 06:40:12 AM
After I will try all your recommandations and  see what the best things I will put progress if there is in this topic and ask you questions if I need.
feel frree! You may also place all your questions here - Bat4Max support thread on Simtropolis. You see I'm mostly grazing there. I've found this thread purely by accident. But I must say I'm very pleased with what I see here!

How's you winter Chourchevel project is doing - have you modeled Prokhorov with all his teenage bimbos surrounded by French police??
In all cases thank you so much for your comment  :)


Quote from: Girafe on April 29, 2010, 06:40:12 AM
ps : why did you choice to export your trees in SD ?
Because they will look better this way. HD is a tricky thing... you see you don't really get something that is ultimately better with it. Also the Name is very misleading. I've used it simply because by the time I got to the project and made scripts for export of BATs it has already stuck. The correct term would have been Zoom6 export.
Difference between HD and SD in essence which zoom it prioritize 5 or 6. The model can have only 5 authentic views. But in the game there are 6. So one of the zooms must be derived from another.
In SD export Zoom5 view in game is per pixel accurate and Zoom6 is produced by blowing Zoom5 2x.
In HD export Zoom6 view in game is per pixel accurate and Zoom5 is produced by reducing Zoom6 2x.
Each of those lead to reduction of quality. Each type of scaling has it's own disadvantages (they are different from each other). When you decide on possibility of HD output you should carefully consider usefulness of it. What zoom will your output me more looked at Zoom6 or Zoom5. Also files will be larger with HD....

After considering all this I, personally, have decided that SD is more appropriate for trees. But this, to a degree, is still a point of opinion...

Girafe

#123
The girafe advances step by step  :)

Which concerns the chestnut in 3dsmax, not some good news I tried lot of things that Simfox adviced me but for time I have lot difficulties with materials mi which doesn't work  :'(



Edit : I think I have just found what was the bug ...


In another part, mi materials are well working on my first mapples and I decided to dessaturate a little bit the leaves   



In a second time I apply simfox's advices about european cars props and I continue my old pack
List of modelled cars:


  • Porsche cayenne
  • Peugeot 307
  • Renault scenic
  • Renault megane
  • Renault logan
  • Renault clio
  • Nissan micra
  • Fiat 500
  • Mercedes cls
  • Renault kangoo
  • Citroen C3
  • Seat Arosa

Cars in preparation


  • VW golf
  • VW lupo
  • Renault twingo
  • Citroen C2, C4, C5
  • Mercedes class A
  • BMW M3, 6 ...
  • Audi A3 ,4 ,5 ,6
  • Smart 42
  • Toyota prius
  • ...

The Floraler

This is the end, hold your breath and count to ten, feel the earth move, and then...

*   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *    *   *   *   *   *    * 

art128

Great cars you've got there, Girafe !  Maybe the back lights are a bit too bright.  :)
I'll take a quiet life... A handshake of carbon monoxide.

Props & Texture Catalog

Sam Johnson

The cars look amazing, I can really imagine how those cars will make many parking lots look a lot more realistic  :thumbsup:

&apls

Nardo69

Nice selection of cars, that's for sure.

However one's still missing - the 2CV. If I could wish a colour I would choose red (like my first one) or crème-reds (Dolly) like my second one. I was driving 2CV for fourteen years only, that is ...  ::)

Take care

Bernhard  :thumbsup:

Girafe

#127
Thanks Sam johnson, Nardo and arthur  !!


Quote from: Nardo69 on May 15, 2010, 08:24:02 AM
However one's still missing - the 2CV. If I could wish a colour I would choose red (like my first one) or crème-reds (Dolly) like my second one. I was driving 2CV for fourteen years only, that is ...  ::)

Take care

Bernhard  :thumbsup:

you have a picture with the exactly color do you want  :P
The Floraler

This is the end, hold your breath and count to ten, feel the earth move, and then...

*   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *    *   *   *   *   *    * 

Gilikov1994

 :o...

This is soooo amazing :) &apls, love it ;)

- Giel :thumbsup:
Check out my LOT thread, and also the EBLTeam!

==> http://sc4devotion.com/forums/index.php?topic=10509.msg318190#new <==

Nardo69

Unfortunately not digital ...

However my second 2CV looked like this whereas my first one was completely red.

Boy, do I miss that crazy little car!

MandelSoft

How about some more Peugeot cars, like the 107, 207 and 407? And Opel/Vauxhall cars?

Anyway, the cars you currently made are looking great  :thumbsup:
Lurk mode: ACTIVE

Girafe

#131
Thanks for all your comments  ::)

Hehe Nardo, I have a gift for you, now it is not so common to see this car in France ; it's a collection car nowadays  ;D

I have attached the model to my post  ;)



Mrtnrln : I have done 307 and I will do surely 607 and 407 and maybe 207 but of course as a good french I can't forgot lion's cars   ;)
The Floraler

This is the end, hold your breath and count to ten, feel the earth move, and then...

*   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *    *   *   *   *   *    * 

Nardo69

Woaaahhhh!!!!!!

&hlp

Now that's sweat!  &apls &apls &apls

Do you think we can find someone who can turn that lovely Prop into an automata? That would be the dot on the "i"!!!

Girafe

Reply : I think that the model is so so complex and for this reason too difficult to mod, even if my knowledge in modding automata is not so high.

However I was interesting by modding high developed automatas and I checked last train's engine of SFBT which are the most developed automatas I have ever seen. In this sens maybe there is a possibility but I don't believe it.

According me, Swamper would be the person who is the more able to do this because as we said me he did the model of SFBT train's engine.

Sorry to not able to mod this sweaty car   ;)

the little Girafe
The Floraler

This is the end, hold your breath and count to ten, feel the earth move, and then...

*   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *    *   *   *   *   *    * 

manchou

Awesome  :o :o :o Your cars are very realistic  &apls &apls :thumbsup: and your trees ... I love them
My BATs or here but it is in french ;)

Gilikov1994

Check out my LOT thread, and also the EBLTeam!

==> http://sc4devotion.com/forums/index.php?topic=10509.msg318190#new <==

Badsim

Hey my dear Girafe ,

I've found some very special models of our famous « Deudeuche » just for you  !  ;D





More seriously , I Just wanted to let you know I'm still here , admiring with envy your precious little things so meticulously done ; majestic trees and ... well , it seems we are going to have a true HD traffic jam , you know where ... in a few months . :thumbsup:

&apls &apls &apls

Cedric.

°   °   °   °   °   °   °   °   °   °   °   °   °   °   °   °   °   °   °   °   °   °   °


Girafe

#137
At first thanks for all comments   ;)


Badsim :

Hehe I am so happy you went here  :)

thanks for your pictures which are always so funny  :D

What a coincidence, I though about you this afternoon and if there will be a suite for TWT  ::)
I hope so, and it's the main reason I continue my pack of european cars. Indeed it's boring to render some cars and not so interesting, I work on it for more than 6 months  :-[

In another side trees, I never though that it was so complicate to develop flora items 
I hope too that in few months I will be ready to develop lot of trees in a triumphal way   ::)

Anyway thanks for coming here and following tsc's topics and others  ;) 
ps : you too are an european   ()stsfd()
______________________________________________________________________

particulary Simfox :

thanks for you help of course, I have still lot of questions
I don't understand where I can set this, could you explain me precisely because It takes long time to render one tree and it makes me working slowly

QuoteAlso you may adjust how FG reacts with leafs. Set it (in Object Properties Mental Ray Tab) to return Black. This will  make render much faster and, again give you better definition in the foliage.

Work on mapple trees :

I applied settings that you recommanded me and at least I obtained this :



what can I upgrated ?

Work on chestnut tree :



second version, more bright and less glossy



This one is more difficult to render, foliage is so dark in game but the texture is so clear in 3ds  &mmm anyway I tried to do my best and obtained this (I have forced glossiness in this model to see what it does)
In another part SD renders in game are always brighter why
at the end I tried to go with gamma and LUT as you said but I don't know why I prefer the wrong one, has it lot of influence ? because when I rendered a model with these settings the grey background is brighter but as I have seen in all forum nobody have this color when they showed some work in 3dsmax  ??? 

Advices and comments are well welcome of course   :)
The Floraler

This is the end, hold your breath and count to ten, feel the earth move, and then...

*   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *    *   *   *   *   *    * 

SimFox

#138
Gamma is not really optional. It is a basis of getting more or less accurate and predictable colors and brightness levels, not something you like or not. By going "oh I like this more" you simply leaving yourself blind in a preview.
Background color would be darker if you select Mr Physical Sky map as you environmental background (and click on Day once more). But beware this may affect your foliage material in quite a radical manner depending on the level of reflectivity (even if it is just FG one) you've set.

All-in-all I think foliage as is now looks pretty good. But, again, you have to set gamma, in order to see how it will be in game! And if it is not to you liking adjust your mats till they will return to the point you like.
It could be good idea when exporting individual trees to leave environment to flat color and select one to be some of the darkest (but not black) shades found in your foliage. This way you'll minimize visibility of fringing, cause even if Max is set not to AA against background some of it will be done anyway. So make sure the it (background) blends as much as possible with darker shades. Brighter fringes around darker areas are much more noticeable than darker fringes around lighter ones. That's just how human sight works.

PS.
alpha doesn't mix too well with FG -you'll get very long render times. Actually alpha transparency don't work well with ANY of the modern indirect(global) illumination systems. It is real shame that at Onyx Tree they didn't manage to recreated for newest version of treeStorm system of replacing leaves with custom geometry - it is a MAJOR failure, actually almost completely destroying any advantage Onyx Garden ever had over other plan generators. All modern renderers can zip through millions of polygons with great speed but come to a crawl with alpha transparencies -which are attavism of times back 50-10 years.

On the other hand, that (along with setting materials) is exactly your input into the process that will allow you to cll this tree yours and not Onyx garden work.


rightclick some object in your scene and you should have Object Properties in a pop-up menu

PS I'd say trees look very good they are right now. Just sort out the whole gamma stuff so as not to get any nasty surprises.
Also you may consider to make some slight variances in material (defuse color, reflectivity/specularity) say 3-4 versions so you'll create prop family and when people will plop many of those trees it wouldn't look too monotonous

Une_ame

#139
Your Deuche is amazing, so many variations are possibles !!!

I remember the luxury Charlestone's !

babuloziwad / adj Above perfection in SC4; Dude, this MOD is ~ !