Hi guys,
I'd kindly like to request a larger avenue roundabout, basically the roundabout currently in the game, but the an additional round roadtrack.
If any one with modding skills is willing to pick this up I can assist by creating the FSH textures needed.
Cheers,
-Alex
It's not exactly what you're asking for here, but as a temporary visual but non-functional solution you could use this roundabout filler from psander5 on the STEX:
http://www.simtropolis.com/forum/files/file/25664-psander5-s-roundabout-fillers/ (http://www.simtropolis.com/forum/files/file/25664-psander5-s-roundabout-fillers/)
That filler actually looks cool. I am glad you pointed this out. However, i was actually thinking about an additional outside lane, or maybe even a larger radius all together. ;D
Certainly we all need a new large roundabout. Especially after the advent of Network Widening Mod and new networks such as AVE-6; MAVE-4 / 6 or wider TLA. It would be great to allow them to flow into a new and huge roundabout. I guess it will be enough if you have 4 lanes and the inner part is in at least 3x3 tiles.
Cheers,
- Ivo
IF that is considered, it will be a long time, considering the new components. While no disrespect intended surrounding the Arc De Triumph,
http://www.youtube.com/v/smsmDrtA_OI
This lane-less example with no traffic control device demonstrates what is not the safest way to build. And when you look at how wide NWM is going to be, IDK about this.
May I ask? Does anybody knows, if those 3-lane roundabouts, which are not "windmill" or "turbine-designed", anywhere exists?
The Dutch Knoopunt Joure is a three-lane roundabout. You can find it here: http://maps.google.nl/maps?hl=nl&ll=52.957257,5.815855&spn=0.002731,0.008256&t=h&z=18 (http://maps.google.nl/maps?hl=nl&ll=52.957257,5.815855&spn=0.002731,0.008256&t=h&z=18). Now, it might not meet your demand quite well, because some parts have two lanes, and the road-markings don't send you round and round, but straight to an exit. This (and the bypasses) were done to optimize traffic flow, as traffic jams are a common occurrence on this roundabout, which is why it is to be replaced by a more free-flowing interchange. It used to be three lanes all around though, if memory serves me right.
Regards,
Korot
Thanks for linking. Well, I meant tree lanes going round and round, but it is quite interesting roundabout - slip lanes and In streetview I see, it's marked as an express road. I see something that first time!
4-lane roundabout in Brussels (B) (http://maps.google.nl/?ll=50.837357,4.407776&spn=0.001867,0.005284&t=k&z=18)
Quote from: j-dub on August 09, 2011, 11:12:07 AM
IF that is considered, it will be a long time, considering the new components. While no disrespect intended surrounding the Arc De Triumph,
This lane-less example with no traffic control device demonstrates what is not the safest way to build. And when you look at how wide NWM is going to be, IDK about this.
I don't think we will ever need something like this :D
Here are a couple of real world examples. The second one is similar to what we have now, it's just bigger (and allows higher speeds)
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs1.ipicture.ru%2Fuploads%2F20110810%2F5XJAFMMR.jpg&hash=003d6638cf664b2b8aa28569311ea71f6251c615)
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs1.ipicture.ru%2Fuploads%2F20110810%2F2ufvZ6wt.jpg&hash=9754b21398a027148ba9dc141839db4a4ee184df)
Edit: here's another one with an AVE-4 going above it. Would be cool to have the same for RHW4 or wider :)
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs1.ipicture.ru%2Fuploads%2F20110810%2FuTto8Xna.jpg&hash=6a1da1bb39190eeb115627dec3b90e3f924f7019)
I agree with this and I think we need bigger roundabouts in SC4 since the creation of the NWM.
Also, on the topic of big roundabouts, check out this monster of a roundabout, (http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=Shepherd+and+Flock+Roundabout,+Farnham,+Surrey+GU9+9,+United+Kingdom&hl=en&sll=53.800651,-4.064941&sspn=6.881357,14.941406&gbv=2&geocode=FVqLDQMd5yP0_w&t=h&z=16) which is only 2 miles from where I live. It only has three lanes, but its big enough to put houses and a pub in the centre. ;D
That's the whole thing, they are bigger. The Maxis NAM Dae Moon site register only download, before NAM existed, was a huge roundabout filler that seems to be evidence roundabouts in SC4 could have been built with bigger radius, had EA not rushed the release date, causing them to eventually omit stuff. The NAM Dae Moon, does not fit in the current NAM avenue roundabout.
And Io_bg, have you yet shown proposed appropriate roundabouts to RHW/NWM threads?
Everything you show is very nice and An interesting but unfortunately it is useless. Anyone can find thousands of pictures in the world with various roundabouts but this is not competition for pictures right? xannepan said that it can deal with textures and request assistance for the remaining work. Let if able and willing to help create paths and RUL's tell him. Be aware, however that the construction of such mega-roundabout will be no easy task. They should include the most experienced of the NAM - the team. I personally do not see how something like this could happen without the participation of Tarkus, Blue Lightning, or Jonathan.
Let me if anyone has specific ideas that can help to write to start a job and not just talk empty words.
Thank you.
Best,
Ivo
Even without bigger roundabouts, I'd be happy with native RHW support for the existing ones for the time being.
Something like this photoshop below:
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg543.imageshack.us%2Fimg543%2F318%2Frhwroundabout.jpg&hash=4a90517beb3707400512cb9c876e5dcc806f8d71)
yes... rhw4 round abouts would be nice. I seem to remember one highway in barbados where the speeds were 90km/h ... and all the intersections where roundabouts. Was quite harrowing to travel.
To be honest, I think the roundabout we have now is fine, we just need a more realistic way to interface with it, not the very Arc De Triomphe onramps we have now with their ridiculous angle of attack.
The problem is we could either tack more onto the existing helper piece setup to cater for the overhang, or fight with the RULs to get the draggable override working.
I would love nicer, more prototypical, approaches but I don't think it'll happen any time soon.
The general feeling I've gotten in recent times is that there's a good bit of interest in more roundabout functionality, including bigger setups with the popularity of the NWM. We've had some discussions about "RabETs"--a roundabout-equivalent of TuLEPs. However, those discussions haven't really gone beyond the drawing board, and we have no real concrete plan worked out in terms of implementation or any project specifications. TuLEPs may undergo some considerable retooling as well going forward, which negates to at least some extent its applicability as a model for potential further roundabout development.
Like JD, I do see the existing Avenue Roundabout operating as a good base--it just needs more functionality in and out of it. It'll probably get ERHW-over support at some point in the (hopefully) not-too-distant future, perhaps along with something along the lines of what Dexter showed.
Going to a larger footprint of roundabout poses some . . . interesting challenges. If you're wanting something along the lines of the existing roundabouts functionality-wise (Street, Road, One-Way Road, Avenue), which are either draggable or pseudo-draggable (the Avenue Roundabouts are basically "WAVERide" 3 years before "WAVERide" existed), they have their root functionality set up in IndRULs, with further coding in RUL2 (and in the case of the Avenue Roundabouts, RUL0 and even a little RUL1).
IndRULs have a 5x5 tile limit as far as efficacy goes. One theoretically could go larger, and there are some ways to kind of fudge things with Tile Verifiers in the Network INI (something that no NAMite deals with on a regular basis) and RUL2 (which operates on a smaller scale), but it could get . . . interesting (there's that word again) . . . trying to get things really stable. There's also the matter of underlying network tile layout. Going fully puzzle-piece eliminates some of those issues at least initially, but as the functionality expands, that can pose a whole new set of issues when you have TAB Rings stacked to the brim with pieces.
As I'm pretty well booked up between RL and my other standing projects, I most likely won't be able to do much more than offer technical advice and (if needed by the final project specs) crank out a little code here and there should a project of this sort get off the ground. But I hope my explanations/ruminations proved at least somewhat useful.
-Alex
Quote from: Tarkus on August 09, 2011, 11:41:36 PM
There has been discussion of RabETs (Roundabout Extension Tiles) for awhile now, since before NAM Version 29 came out, conceived as a sort of "roundabout-equivalent" of TuLEPs. However, it hasn't gotten much farther than mere discussion since that time. We've only had very preliminary discussions about what NAM Version 31 and other future releases will entail, and while there's considerable interest in RabETs, the implementation methods are nowhere near worked out, and it's likely to prove a rather daunting project. As I already have enough on my plate with RL, the RHW, NWM, TuLEPs and a few smaller projects, it'll likely require someone else on the NAM Team to step up in order for RabETs to become a reality.
-Alex
Alex (Tarkus) I have a bold suggestion to you. is no secret to anyone that you are the leader of NAM and are most capable of the whole team. It is from there you need a project as possible RabERs that would be extremely complex to implement. I fully agree with you that you are too busy with current projects RHW, NWM and TuLEPs. My suggestion is to cancel RHW Court for the new project RabETs. However, if you are big enough contribution there but not once as I said - RHW is too forward in comparison with others. From my personal observations I see that 90% of NAM participate in the development of RHW and this should not be a problem they can cope without you. I think that if you leave RHW - Blue Lightning, Maarten and Shadow Assasin he will be in safe hands. So I guess, and you have more free time and we will get new and super cool stuff. But the choice is yours and the decision you make will always be well received by all of us - I just wanted to help with ideas and suggestions. I'd love to have been useful reflections.
Best regards,
Ivo
Part of the thing is that while I believe expanded roundabout functionality would be somewhat useful, it isn't something that would be enough for me to drop what I'm doing with the RHW.
-Alex
Quote from: Tarkus on August 10, 2011, 05:48:02 PM
Part of the thing is that while I believe expanded roundabout functionality would be somewhat useful, it isn't something that would be enough for me to drop what I'm doing with the RHW.
-Alex
Multi-Level System will be a great addition when it is finished but I think it can happen without your help. NAM Those who have participated in building and designing ERHW-4 and ERHW-6 is supposed to have gained the necessary experience to cope without you in there. At least I think so too as an observer, but I do not monitor the operation and capabilities of each of your team and you know best.
- Ivo
Thanks for the great number of responses guys! I understand perfectly the NAM mod team is very busy with many other great and much desired features. So i can be patient :). I do want to repeat that for any potential textures i am willing to help out, but since it is not clesr to me exactly which textures will be needed i need some specific specs to ge me going. So, if anyone is ready and willing to pick thisnup, just send me a PM, and if i am not dealing with RL at the tme i will help out!
Alex
Here is Rondo Tomačevo on the edge of Ljubljana, connecting the Štajerska avenue (NRHW-4), Titova avenue (AVE-4) and the H3 motorway (RHW-4).
It has been rebuilt last year, as the construction of the Titova cesta begun, because of the massive congestions it used to make.
Here is Before:
http://maps.google.com/?ll=46.080915,14.528266&spn=0.003033,0.006968&t=k&z=18 (http://maps.google.com/?ll=46.080915,14.528266&spn=0.003033,0.006968&t=k&z=18)
And here is the After picture:
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.shrani.si%2Ff%2Fg%2FSn%2F2GxZswmv%2Frondo-tomacevo.jpg&hash=713885f235dd1d1205be2a0b3e57bb5836d48650)
Quote from: ivo_su on August 10, 2011, 05:55:59 PM
Quote from: Tarkus on August 10, 2011, 05:48:02 PM
Part of the thing is that while I believe expanded roundabout functionality would be somewhat useful, it isn't something that would be enough for me to drop what I'm doing with the RHW.
-Alex
Multi-Level System will be a great addition when it is finished but I think it can happen without your help. NAM Those who have participated in building and designing ERHW-4 and ERHW-6 is supposed to have gained the necessary experience to cope without you in there. At least I think so too as an observer, but I do not monitor the operation and capabilities of each of your team and you know best.
- Ivo
I believe Alex did design the ERHW-4 and ERHW-6S/C...
Actually, Tarkus (Alex :P ) and Swamper<number><number> (Can't remember them sorry :( ) designed most of ERHW-4, while ERHW-6S and ERHW-6C were prototypes developed individually ages ago. I believe Blue Lightning started them both at different stages.
Swamper77?
Quote from: jacksunny on August 11, 2011, 05:17:35 AM
Swamper77?
^Yes. He and I did the ERHW-4 and EMIS for Version 3.0--he took care of the modeling and some pathing, and I did the RULs. The ERHW-6S/6C were started by Blue Lightning, though I helped finish them, getting support for overpasses over wider ground RHWs and GLR in place, as well as FlexSPUI support. The ERHW-2 has basically been a solo project of mine.
Alex, thanks for the offer to take on textures--that makes the project a good bit more feasible. I think once we're done with this release cycle, we'll have more time to help figure out design logistics.
-Alex
Quote
IndRULs have a 5x5 tile limit as far as efficacy goes. One theoretically could go larger, and there are some ways to kind of fudge things with Tile Verifiers in the Network INI (something that no NAMite deals with on a regular basis) and RUL2 (which operates on a smaller scale), but it could get . . . interesting (there's that word again) . . . trying to get things really stable. There's also the matter of underlying network tile layout. Going fully puzzle-piece eliminates some of those issues at least initially, but as the functionality expands, that can pose a whole new set of issues when you have TAB Rings stacked to the brim with pieces.
I can easily handle larger than 5x5 setups with a little INRUL modularity (4 quadrants?), and I've got a good grasp on the INI verifiers (they are based off of the INRULs (positioning) and RUL1/2 (IID, rot, flip)). :)
(In fact, we can retool some of our RUL2 prevent code into INI verifiers, ie the MIS Y splitters)
EDIT: Oh hello 2nd page, didn't notice you existed before I posted. :P
Quote from: Blue Lightning on August 11, 2011, 02:01:12 PM
I've got a good grasp on the INI verifiers (they are based off of the INRULs (positioning) and RUL1/2 (IID, rot, flip)). :)
[Mr. Burns]Excellent![/Mr. Burns]. I've been meaning to learn those puppies at some point. The modular quadrant approach would definitely be the way to go for something larger.
That said, I think a 3-laner would probably make sense at 5x5, as a triple-tile NWM network could neatly connect into the middle.
-Alex
The current size would also work with the two tile triple tile networks, with the filler that psander5 created, only it would be functional. But yeah, 5x5 roundabouts would be awesome.
And how would you hook them up, pimmapman? It won't be nice and symmetrical, since the centre tile of the three-tile network, can't hook up to both centre tiles of the Roundabout. You need a roundabout with an odd width to do that, such as 5x5.
Regards,
Korot
Sorry I meant triple lane networks like the mave6 and owr3, although I do think that the 5x5 would be much better.
Maybe we should also think about larger roundabouts. I mean if you want a roundabout to take on traffic from 6laners, you need a bigger diameter. How about a set of 3 or 4 lane roundabout at 9x9 an 8x8 tiles in size? I know its a lot of space, but it sure is alot more realistic than the ones we have now. I mean can anyone show such a small roundabout on any avenue? I bet no one can, cause they just wouldn't be functional.
So all in favor of BIGger roundabouts say I!
I!
I think 3 lanes would be more than enough. IMO, if an intersection was going to involve anything larger than three lanes wide around the entire circumference, it should be a standard controlled intersection with traffic lights. Roundabouts just shouldn't carry that kind of traffic.
BTW, here's probably the best RL analogue I know of for the existing 4x4 roundabout.
http://www.nearmap.com/?ll=-27.627165,152.759751&z=19&t=k&nmd=20110723
(Scroll to the bottom, click "Take me to Map")
^^ Or you need a traffic light controlled roundabout. We have some around here in the Netherlands:
http://maps.google.nl/?ll=52.054078,4.519869&spn=0.000002,0.003484&t=h&z=19&vpsrc=6&layer=c&cbll=52.054078,4.519869&panoid=dVKr873A3LfExjg2eJa5cA&cbp=12,210.02,,0,7.94
But you can always create a "Turboplein" $%Grinno$%
http://maps.google.nl/?ll=52.001,4.451834&spn=0.001379,0.003484&t=k&z=19&vpsrc=6
But I think all these stoplights actually breaks down the purpose of the roundabout...
Best,
Maarten
I'll say "I" (not sure if that's the correct spelling) to larger roundabouts, though I think 3 lanes is plenty and 8x8 or 9x9 sounds like possibly an unrealistically large amount of work to create--especially considering all of the work required to be able to connect 1, 2, and 3 tile networks of multiple types and widths, as well as diagonals.
At the moment I only use avenue roundabouts with diagonal avenues because the middle looks larger to the entering avenues comparatively that way. For that same reason I think 5x5 might be a bit small for 3-tile networks.
No easy solutions or answers to this one &mmm
Though, 'upgrading' to traffic light controlled roundabouts can exacerbate the problems. (Airport Drive roundabout in Brisbane, Google it and you'll find out why it's been upgraded to a Volleyball/SPUI derivative thing).
http://www.nearmap.com/?ll=-27.411938,153.077279&z=18&t=k&nmd=20091015
compared to
http://www.nearmap.com/?ll=-27.412243,153.077263&z=19&t=k&nmd=20110708
(BTW, if it asks you to register, scroll down and click "Take me to the Map")
^^ Nice you can see shots of the interchange conversion over time...
Yeah, NearMap does a damn good job of beating the crap out of the horrible, outdated and slow (in more ways than one) Google Maps. Well, here in Aus anyway.
Not to get OT, but now I finally have seen a real European TLA Road, faded, but still visible. Jdenm8. Volleyballs are all fine and well, but a more advanced build like that, I just don't know when such a setup like that would exist for this game.
I wasn't requesting it ( :P ), I was merely showing an example of what happens instead of making a Roundabout larger than three lanes. As that intersection was upgraded to Five lanes coming into the intersection, you'd probably need at least four all the way around, which just doesn't work.
I don't know about other parts of the world, but Australia has some complicated Roundabout laws according to what lane you enter the roundabout in.
(Also, it's just a trumped-up and stretched SPUI. Unlike other parts of the world, we tend to stick traffic islands where you're not meant to drive. Like here: http://www.nearmap.com/?ll=-27.885458,153.315513&z=19&t=k&nmd=20110721 )
EDIT:
Oh look, another 4x4 Avenue Roundabout :P
http://www.nearmap.com/?ll=-27.857994,153.307809&z=19&t=k&nmd=20110721
Quote
Oh look, another 4x4 Avenue Roundabout :P
http://www.nearmap.com/?ll=-27.857994,153.307809&z=19&t=k&nmd=20110721
I just saw a right turn lane going into nothing, it looks like that was supposed to be some sort of developed area, almost like Dalton Street was supposed to connect to Days Road, except that one giant building there. It also looks like Williamson Road ending at Days Road, is seriously lacking a traffic signal. What exactly happened here, M8?
EDIT: No idea, that's down near Beenleigh Upper Coomera, somewhere I've spent only probably... Six Zero minutes of my life where I'm not on the Motorway or driving straight through :P
Quote from: j-dub on August 20, 2011, 08:55:11 PM
Not to get OT, but now I finally have seen a real European TLA Road, faded, but still visible.
Picture or didn't happen :P No, seriously, you may confuse the two-way 3-lane roads (which you can find nowadays very sporadicly due to its unsafe center lane) for TLA's.
Quote from: jdenm8 on August 20, 2011, 09:15:02 PM
I don't know about other parts of the world, but Australia has some complicated Roundabout laws according to what lane you enter the roundabout in.
Speaking from experience, this roundabout in Inner Melbourne was lawless..
http://www.nearmap.com/?ll=-37.801235,144.957406&z=19&t=k&nmd=20091012
..which is why they're currently upgrading everything to traffic lights with additional throughways to -snort- "improve" flow.
http://www.nearmap.com/?ll=-37.801193,144.957406&z=19&t=k&nmd=20110628
However, that being said, I'd like to see a three lane roundabout for the sake of variety.
"I!"
Ha ha, another Oval Roundabout ::)
We have two that I know of up here, both of which are lower capacity but still hard to figure out thanks to the weird shape.
That was where the two highways to Sydney met in 1966. If they hope to fix that they'll have to do what they did to St Kilda Junction. On that note, St Kilda Junction should be redone as part of a southern expressway.
I live near that junction (Middle Park actually) and my dad drives the family through that intersection millions of times coming form Fitzroy St turning right onto the ALT 1 (Aussie Road Naming!) and with ST. Kilda rd, Fitzroy st, punt road, queens way, Wellington st and Dandenong rd all intersect with each other that is a pretty well thought out intersection!
Also remember that there is a tram t intersection as well!!!
Speaking of roundabouts... here's one in my city: http://g.co/maps/zs5yj I measured it in Google Earth, it's diameter is 105 metres (=6.5 SC4 tiles). The main road (going from north to south) has a wider median next to the roundabout in order to allow higher speeds.
This one is squashed and allows even higher speeds: http://g.co/maps/8q6h3 It's diameter at the wide sides is again 105 metres while it's 75 metres (4.7 SC4 tiles) at the short ones.
A regular one with a major road overpassing it: http://g.co/maps/m7pgu 130 metres in diameter (~8 SC4 tiles). Would love to be able to overpass the current roundabouts using RHW!
For me, roundabouts currently in the game are enough, but it never hurts to have one or 2 more types extra...
Example of a big roundabout in Zagreb, about 10 km from me...
Big one (http://maps.google.hr/maps?q=google+maps+zagreb&hl=hr&ll=45.776975,15.953141&spn=0.003135,0.006561&hnear=Zagreb&gl=hr&sqi=2&t=h&z=18&vpsrc=6)
3-lane roundabout raised from the ground, from 3 sides 6 lane avenues are connecting to it, from the south regular road is connected. Roundabout is raised because of the tram line going under it (north and east directions). Outer lanes on connecting avenues are right only (like slip lanes), other 2 lanes going through. According to Google maps, diameter of it is 152 meters.
There are no traffic lights on it, but sometimes in rush hours (usually in the morning at 8-9h and at about 15-16h) due to the amount of traffic going through, police is regulating the flow to avoid accidents (which happen fairly often as people want to get through it asap).
Edit due to posting not working link....
Quote from: strucka on August 20, 2011, 01:52:53 AM
I mean can anyone show such a small roundabout on any avenue? I bet no one can, cause they just wouldn't be functional.
I can easily. Valparaiso Indiana has now built 2 roundabouts on roads that are way to small for the traffic amount that occurs on the roads going through it. Instead of fixing the traffic issues caused by 2 traffic lights so close, they actually made it worse because they decided to make the roundabouts 1 lane instead of two lanes through it, so people still tend to have to stop before entering the roundabout because there is no flow allowed to start with it due to its small size
That may be so, but my state had a old double right turn lane roundabout for a 6 way in this one town, its not like that backup was ever solved, but a left on arrow only takes a real long amount of time for that big of an intersection as well. These days, it just has a regular STOP sign, before you used to just shoot thru. The issue we already know with avenue roundabouts is your still turning in front of someone, despite going the same direction considering when your going in and out from the center lanes of the roundabout, imagine the broadsiding tendancy at a higher rate of speed. My town drew a plan for two dual avenue roundabouts on the same boulevard once, the elder citizens shot it down, and felt the teens would go the wrong way around. Can't say I blame them.
That said, not saying their decission in Valpraiso to build it that way without the dual lanes was right, but at the same time, I think the vote has to do with I don't feel a number of citizens are accustom to proper use of the whole multilane roundabout thing.