An open post to Simtropolis and the whole SC4 community.

[jeronij]

This is an open post to Simtropolis and all the SC4 community.

The first thing I will say is that I am totally disappointed with the place where our community as a whole actually stands at this point. It is a shame that two fraternally-connected sites like Simtropolis and SC4D can not co-exist peacefully and respectfully, like many other brother sites in the net.

The second thing that I will say is that I am totally open to SC4D having a friendly relationship with Simtropolis, as with any other SC4 related site. As far as I am aware, my site or I have never taken any action that could be considered hostile to Simtropolis. You will not find a single comment I have made ,save the one linked at the end of this post (*), that could be considered hostile to Simtropolis or to any other SC4 site. You will never find a word from me inciting anybody to behave in a disrespectful, bad-mannered, arrogant or rough way not here, and not at Simtropolis or anywhere else. Quite the opposite. I totally discourage these behaviors. In fact, these behaviors are not tolerated in our site as demonstrated in our rules...

Talking about the SC4D rules, I want to say that, in addition, every member is expected to respect the different rules in every different site he/she visits. There is no excuse for not doing that, and every site is free, I'd even better say obligated, to take the measures that are considered appropriate in dealing with these occasions. You can not expect to find the same rules in different places, even when they are related one to the other. This is part of the richness of the internet.



I will take a moment to go into the reasons that made me decide to open this site, even though I did not have even the most remote idea about making websites.

First reason: Anyone is free to move from one site to another if you do not feel comfortable. This has been said previously by Simtropolis's staff repeatedly, and I couldn't agree more.

Another reason that made me decide to move and try my SC4D idea, was the number of different points of view about the community, when it comes to the difference between the different members. I see two main types of members in our community:

• Contributing members: Creators ( BATters, LOTters, MODders, CJ/MDr's ) and programmers, developers, investigators, staff, and so on.

• Regular members: Everyone else

It does not mean that a contributing member will always have the best reason, or that a regular member can never have the best reason. It only means, that members that contribute are respected for his/her contributions to the game, and they will find all the help and support from the staff to develop his/her creations here at SC4D. No more, no less.

Finally, regarding this, I will say that I never have felt directly attacked, insulted or disrespected from any of the Simtropolis staff members, but I have felt that way indirectly because of the rules at that site which are related to the reasons addressed above.

There is no need to be any argument about why one site applies one rules, and another applies other, or if the rules at one site are better than the rules at another site. See my comments above.



About "repairing the fracture", I will say that I am convinced that both sites can coexist without any problems, if both sites agree to do this, and I will say here in advance that I do totally agree that this should be the way things are. However I think that some extra efforts are currently necessary to cool down the situation. I have strictly forbidden our members in commenting on the forums at SC4D to criticize in any way any other SC4 site, specially Simtropolis, right from the beginning. At SC4D if a member breaks this rule, he or she runs an extreme risk of being immediately banned. Improper?. Please, read my comment about the rules (above) again  . This way, a comment made at our site will, under any reasonable circumstances, never start a flame war at any other site. I can not say to anyone what to do at his/her home, but I respectfully ask other fansites, and in particular Simtropolis, to do something to effectively stop any negative mention of SC4D at your site. If the people do not have a place to start a flame war, no flame war will exist.

Believe it or not many members feel really injured after all the things that have happened. You may agree or not with this feeling, but in any event you should respect it, because if not, the wounds that are caused will not close and the situation will never return to a state of calm. I really believe that an extended "time of silence" is necessary between our sites. Not having any comments made against each other during the next few months will help to restore the calm, and the community will have the opportunity to concentrate in playing SC4, and hopefully to create custom content.

At the same time, I recognize that I may be wrong in some of my assumptions, and it is possible that we could be making a mistake in doing what I propose. If this is the case, I ask for your input as to what I can do to help more to cool the situation.



Finally, I would like to talk about some "myths" about SC4D which are running around our community, and which should be stopped or discouraged, simply because they are not correct.

I have seen many comments where some members of our community say that SC4D is the BSC site. "This is the BSC home ... "

Well, I have to say that this is totally true, as it is also the home for the NHP, NAM, BLaM, TSC, LBT,  SFBT, HKBT, SMP, and any other team that is interested in having a place where they can develop and showcase their projects. The BSC team represents a very important part of the active creators at SC4D, and I feel really proud to see them here, as I feel really really proud to see all the other team members working together in the same site, sharing knowledge and feedback.

But the site rules are jeronij's ones and not BSC's or anyone else's.


Another common comment is the one regarding the exclusivity of our LEX (Lot Exchange)... "Only the BSC can upload there ¡¡¡" ...

Well, in fact the LEX is exclusive to SC4D because you will not find this great piece of software by the CSX anywhere else. This is a relatively new tool, and it is still under development in some specific areas, but so far, it has proven to be a real stable and functional piece of software. I could not be more happy to have this software at SC4D 

We decided to implement a strict quality control on our LEX to make sure that only the best (technically and artistically speaking) creations can be found there. That means that only those teams/creators who really care about all the phases of the custom creation process will have the right to upload their creations.This also means that the LEX uploading rights are open to any member, I repeat, any member who is really interested in having them. All the information about this process can be found in the Candidacies board.

I hope this explanation helps to "kill" the myths about SC4D and the LEX, which in my opinion are wrong and uncalled for.



Before anyone even thinks about going off topic in this thread, I will copy David's advice about our rules:

As hopefully everyone knows by this time, we have the following among our SC4D Rules [linkie].[/size][/font]

• One final word for those who would discuss here in the forums the goings-on at other SC4 fansites: DON'T.  Other than the fact that this, too, is a waste of time and bandwidth, it is completely contrary to the community spirit we expect SC4D members to show.

I'm pretty sure that folks know we take that rule, as we do all our rules, very seriously.  I see joerg's sentiments about Simtropolis, as expressed in his post, as completely consistent with the rule, and almost certainly very timely said in light of the current state of affairs.  He asks why we all just can't accept our differences in the community and move forward in the spirit of the one thing everyone in the community has in common- the great enjoyment we experience when we play SC4.  While he speaks specifically of relations between members of ST and SC4D, what he says applies in a far larger sense to relations between the memberships of all the fansites in the community.

This post stands as the thoughts of one SC4D member.  It deserves careful reading.  While each of our members is entitled to take his or her own position on the issues joerg raises, I would hope that, in general, he has expressed what I would call the "common wisdom" here- respect everyone,  be courteous in your dealings with others, be willing act first in forgiving things, don't be petty.  Above all, he says let enjoyment of the game be put first.  Pretty hard to argue with that.

I don't really know what else needs to be said beyond what our friend has here.  On the other hand, I don't think it's fair that I should make a comment and have the last word when I'm sure others feel strongly about the matters raised.  So, I'll do two things on behalf of jeronij and the staff- I'll leave this thread open for comments for a day or two so that everyone who would care to has the opportunity make a positive and supportive contribution.  Second, I will carefully monitor the thread- anyone who leaves a comment that is in conflict with the particular rule I've quoted above can expect to hear from SC4D about that, and the communication will not be in the nature of, "Hi- how are you doing?"  I note that this thread is an opportunity we are providing for folks to speak on a topic not normally raised here- please do not consider it an invitation to start additional threads of this nature.

Finally, thanks again, joerg, for speaking up.


David

I keep the references to Joerg, because he was who in fact started this discussion.


I would very much hope to see, in particular, some feedback from the Simtropolis staff regarding this request.



(*) Except this one, which I wrote in a moment of fury, and even being a bit exaggerated, I decide to leave it there, because of the "message behind the message".

[sam]

Hi Jeronij, some of the things you have said I agree with, such as respecting that sites have different rules and further than that, different ways of enforcing their rules. Having said that, most of the rules of both sites are not dissimilar except for a few (the STEX is open to everyone for example). As you have said, diversity is an important part of the community.

Simtropolis is a little different to many other SC4 sites. Most sites attract people with similar interests and points of view (for example SC4D is focussed towards custom content creators). From what I have observed recently, this does not mean there is less conflict, it just seems to be more one sided (ie people because of their similar view points are more likely to take the same side and the other is less conspicuous or absent). Simtropolis tends to be where most of those different viewpoints cross each other (and sometimes swords - or at least words).

I do not support anyone behaving disrespectfully of any other person for any reason, however I do believe that must go both ways, not just one, and must apply in all situations, not just one.

Some of what you said in your post though I did not understand what you were referring to, in particular this quote:

Finally, regarding this, I will say that I never have felt directly attacked, insulted or disrespected from any of the Simtropolis staff members, but I have felt that way indirectly because of the rules at that site which are related to the reasons addressed above.

You are correct that there are a lot of myths flying around, and not just about SC4D.

I am not going to further discuss here any matters of Simtropolis though, I don't feel SC4D is the appropriate place to do that in view of each site's respective rules on the matter. I can be found at Simtropolis for discussions regarding Simtropolis though.

[jeronij]

Sam, thanks for the inputs. I will be cheking both threads, and I will reply wherever it is necessary.

About the quote you mention:

Finally, regarding this, I will say that I never have felt directly attacked, insulted or disrespected from any of the Simtropolis staff members, but I have felt that way indirectly because of the rules at that site which are related to the reasons addressed above.

In my opinion:
It is not the Simtropolis staff who says that all the members are treated equally regardless of his/her contribution to the game.
It is not the Simtropolis staff who says that if you dont like the site you are free to leave.
This philosophy is stated by the Simtropolis rules.
Simtropolis staff is simply enforcing the site rules.

I never received directly a negative, insulting or disrespectful message from any of the Simtropolis staff members, but everytime that these rules are mentioned there, I feel totally disapointed, that's why I decided to go ahead with my own idea.

Again I say that no discussion about the different rules is the objective of this thread. I decided to explain this in a more detailed way because you asked me to do it  .

I hope you understand what I mean now.

[shoreman905]

Well said sir, and this should be required reading by all members here and guests. 

[EandRsFather]

Hi Jeronij,
It's me, Joe, aka JoeSocWork.  You have a really nice website! 8) 

To be honest, talking about the rules of the website that I'm honored to help with would be beyond my purview, especially outside the website; that might be a matter between the webmaster.  However, even though you said that you have no issue with SimTropolis staff, in case you ever do please feel free to p.m. or the other administrators or Dirk himself at SimTroplis immediately!

Meanwhile, how's your son?  Mine just graduated third grade.  He's getting bigger and on target physically.  He's learning to write and spell a few words and I'm very proud of him.  The past couple of weeks he's had an obsession w/ geese.  I have absolutely no idea if it's related to his autism or not but it does crack my wife and me up!   It's cute enough that I may write an entry about it in in the journal.  Oh and don't even get me started about my daughter, The Diva!    I hope your son continues to do okay.  It's a blessing to be a father!

Take care buddy,
Joe

[Pat]

Now see this what we need is the love not the hate or what ever happens
well ok not so the love but mer understanding of one and the other.  I
know i tend to ramble a little and seeing that there has been anther issue
resolved i feel so much better even though i know there are others that still
need to be worked out with and taking time it will come full circle.  We will
or least i pray can work as a whole community as i said over at ST.




btw i feel proud to say i've grown up here and become more active in the
community because of here and it shows now in post count at 500

[RichGray]

I dont know what problem this site and ST has with each other, but i dont really care. Focusing on the good things on both sites, the purpose they serve, is more important than negative issues.

[jeronij]

Hi Jeronij,
It's me, Joe, aka JoeSocWork.  You have a really nice website! 8) 

To be honest, talking about the rules of the website that I'm honored to help with would be beyond my purview, especially outside the website; that might be a matter between the webmaster.  However, even though you said that you have no issue with SimTropolis staff, in case you ever do please feel free to p.m. or the other administrators or Dirk himself at SimTroplis immediately!

Meanwhile, how's your son?  Mine just graduated third grade.  He's getting bigger and on target physically.  He's learning to write and spell a few words and I'm very proud of him.  The past couple of weeks he's had an obsession w/ geese.  I have absolutely no idea if it's related to his autism or not but it does crack my wife and me up!   It's cute enough that I may write an entry about it in in the journal.  Oh and don't even get me started about my daughter, The Diva!    I hope your son continues to do okay.  It's a blessing to be a father!

Take care buddy,
Joe

Hello Joe,

Nice to see you again  

I am glad to hear that your son is growing healthy and his evolution is positive. It is nice to hear that he learns to write and spell, this is a great progress indeed    . Bastian just finished 1st grade (he's 61/2 actually), but he must go some days to an specialized school, to learn to write and read, and some other days to an open school, where he can socialize with other children. This makes our life a bit more complicated, but Bastian is growing healthy too, and he progresses slowly as well. You are right, being s father is a blessing... most of the time  

I take note of your remark about contacting you via PM. Feel free to do the same here or at ST if you ever want to do it.

Best regards  

Jeroni  


Pd:
She Who Will Not Be Named, this thread is an exception. The site is full of places where you can positively contribute to the community.
Pat, thanks for your feedback. I think we can see some excellent examples of what different teams can accomplish when they decide to work together 
RichGray , please, check the rules about the signature picture dimensions, and proceed accordingly

[RichGray]

yeah, sorry about that, another member clarified that for me. Changed it now. Hopefully they be within limits.

[Biwdc]

well i do like to see that the community is trying to come together,
which i was glad to see on simtropolis aswell.

[Patriots1228]

im a little late, but i got two cents i need to by somthing   

speaking as someone who made a negative comment to one of the sides in joergs thread, and got banned for it, im gonna say that all these flame wars are not worth it. Devotion and ST are both great sites and i hope that they one day can co-exist peacefully, as they have been doing recently. i guess since ive already sucked up once, this would be the right time to apologize to BSC for my comments. sorry.

[dragonshardz]

in my opinion, Simtropolis and here are both equally good. both sites have distincly different exchanges, as well as completely different search engines. HOWEVER, i have noticed that many BSC lots have readmes that link not to here, but to ST. the links may sometimes be "broken", but that right there is proof that these two sites CAN peacefully coexist. I may download more content off of the LEX than the STEX, but that is because nothing there appeals to me right now.

The point i'm trying to make here is that despite the dofferences between the sites they are both very, very well-run sites with a huge amount of content available and that no one should post anything detrimental to either site because falme wars are a waste of time and distract from the whole point of creating the sites: to get great custom content and mods out to the worldwide SC4 community and also as places to show off the things we have done with said custom content in an atmosphere of cooperation and support.

[jeronij]

dragonshardz , thanks for your inputs. However, if you noticed a download in the LEX which points to a wrong link, I please you to report it in the LEX support board 

[vester]

Dragonshardz: Some of the files on the Lex is just copies of the files at STEX. Barby and others are doing a big project updating the readme with new links to the dependecies.
Here I can recomed to find a document by Diggis on all the props and textures packs. If I remember right its attached to a post here and uploaded to STEX. He have a little different user name there.

I will edit this post when I get back home later today and add a link to this document by Diggis.

[RippleJet]

I will edit this post when I get back home later today and add a link to this document by Diggis.

No hurry Vester. Here it is: http://sc4devotion.com/forums/index.php?topic=1691.0

[vester]

I see that RippleJet have posted a link to the document. Thanks. 

[jeronij]

Thanks for your kind feedback Gary    ( I have to say that I just read one and half paragrahps before noticing the repetition    )

I am glad to see that you agree with the main idea 

[dragonshardz]

@vester & rippleJet: already have Diggis' document. i got it because of the out-of-date links.

@Vandy: exactly my point, although many times clearer and with the difference of the fact that i'm not a moderator

[dioangel]

very well said!!  Don't know why there having these weird wars between st and devotion.. I think it's pointless fighting for no reason. 

[interaxion]

There are a few SC marketplaces where to exchange mashups (BATs, mods, etc.): Simtropolis, SimPeg, SC4Devotion, mod sites like SimCity4Mods (not even to mention all the captivating Japanese and Chinese sites that fascinate some of us).

As SC4 communities go, many talented batters want to practice their craft in different communities.  All of these sites where SC gamers exchange ideas, as well as mashups, have usually worked together and published on each other's sites to increase their exposure. The same mashups available on SimPeg are also available on the STEX - just like many mashups that appear on SC4D are also on the STEX.  Not doing so may become a bigger problem, as you do not increase your exposure to other sites, and only rely on word-of-mouth to increase your membership.

I work in interactive entertainment and research in-game advertising and the integration of Web 2.0 (social networks) into MMOGs and gamer communities. Our communities are part of the Web 2.0. They are social networks where subscribers exchange different things. Very few of us only have a profile on MySpace and not on Facebook. I doubt most of us only subscribe to SC4Devotion, but not Simtropolis or SimPeg (I apologize as other quality sites surely escape me right now).

• Social networks are now developing standards (using XFN and OWL technology) to integrate online identities used across different networks. This facilitates picking up members from other virtual worlds, MMOGs and social networks who have an interest in your domain, and can share with it.

• Social websites are now at a place in terms of stickiness where they are in a position to monetize on their model. Marketers are trying to find new ways to efficiently engage with us - an increasingly fragmented and elusive market segment. Many game genres try to simulate real-life, and have, historically, integrated real products (in SC4, these include McDonald's, Burger Kings, Starbucks, Blockbusters, supermarkets, petrol stations, real-life retailers, airline planes, automobiles or highway billboards, to name a few). The inclusion of branded mashups provides an opportunity for marketers to connect with us, and, in the case of simulation genres, positively influence game experience. It also gives operators of our communities the opportunity to monetize on their hard work, and further enhance our experience without only relying on donations (upgrades and programming cost money).

Given the last 2 points, the parochial attitudes we are witnessing serve no purpose.  It would be in the best interest of both SC4D and Simtropolis to talk and exchange -- even harmonize identities -- while keeping sites that serve different varieties of a same product, but whose common purpose is to enhance game experience.

-- (this was also posted on the Simtropolis Community Forum) --