Hi all,
I've been looking at farms (I-R) lots and buildings lately, trying to make my own. I have figured out some features (pls correct me if I'm wrong) and I have a few questions:
- There are two types of I-R lots and buildings, the "main" lot/building, looking from the modding point of view pretty much like the other I lots and buildings (except that they are I-R, not I-D/M/HT) and the so-called "farm-fields".
- These appear not to be really growable. Likely they just fill the rest of the zoned farm area when the "main" lot (the "real" growable) grows - the "Field Lots" property specifies the farm-field lots that may be selected for the specific main I-R lot. So they are just "decorative", and in quite a few ways: the Growth Stage is 0xFF, they appear not to employ any sims, not to consume power or water and to not pay any taxes (no "Building Value" property).
So the question is, why should someone zone a large farm zone instead of more smaller ones? You won't get more jobs or taxes, only more pollution. Not sure about power consumption, but in SC4 even empty zones do consume some power, so they may actually still need additional power. That is you will actually get more negative effects with nothing in return.
Has anybody experimented with adding jobs to farm fields? Also would adding, say, one or two I-R jobs or some taxes per tile be a "cheat" or in any way "against the rules"? I think the player should get some "compensation" for the space taken up and the pollution.
Is there some way to make real ploppable farms? I guess it would be possible to make the "main" lot ploppable, just like the other I- types (providing I-R jobs, satisfying I-R demand and paying taxes), and furthermore make the lot larger and use the same props and textures as the growable farm fields in the extra tiles, but would it be possible to make a variable-size lot, maybe using a special plopping technique, say plopping the main lot on top of a zoned farm area?
I would greatly appreciate any help.
Quote from: cogeo on January 04, 2008, 11:47:04 AM
Hi all,
I've been looking at farms (I-R) lots and buildings lately, trying to make my own. I have figured out some features (pls correct me if I'm wrong) and I have a few questions:
- There are two types of I-R lots and buildings, the "main" lot/building, looking from the modding point of view pretty much like the other I lots and buildings (except that they are I-R, not I-D/M/HT) and the so-called "farm-fields".
- These appear not to be really growable. Likely they just fill the rest of the zoned farm area when the "main" lot (the "real" growable) grows - the "Field Lots" property specifies the farm-field lots that may be selected for the specific main I-R lot. So they are just "decorative", and in quite a few ways: the Growth Stage is 0xFF, they appear not to employ any sims, not to consume power or water and to not pay any taxes (no "Building Value" property).
You've got the main picture correctly! :thumbsup:
However, a few properties are inhereted from the Parent Cohort file at 0x05342861, 0xA7BDDF17, 0x00004100:
Wealth = Low Wealth
Purpose = Agriculture
Capacity Satisified = Industry Resource, 0x01The last one should tell you that 1 person is working on each field tile. ;)
Otherwise, no, they do not provide tax income, do not consume water nor power.
Quote from: cogeo on January 04, 2008, 11:47:04 AM
Has anybody experimented with adding jobs to farm fields? Also would adding, say, one or two I-R jobs or some taxes per tile be a "cheat" or in any way "against the rules"? I think the player should get some "compensation" for the space taken up and the pollution.
Yes, some fields by Colyn do actually employ 2 or even 4 per tile... $%Grinno$%
Ehmm.., didn't notice the property in the cohort! Thanks!
Another question, how should I decide what stage the farms should be? Is there any point in making it a stage higher than 3 (CAM)? Any tips about the jobs provided by the main lot?
The "X" Tool (and Maxis as well) calculates all capacities based on the floorage of the main building.
The formulas are given in this thread: "X" Tool: Capacity Calculations and Floorage (http://sc4devotion.com/forums/index.php?topic=2308.0).
Since several farm houses are small and not necessarily (usually not) the only place where farmers work, those making farm lots usually add 1 worker per tile of the main lot, in a way to compensate for those jobs that would otherwise be provided by the field lots.
Since I-R is the only RCI type that won't upgrade, the selection of growth stage is not that important.
However, if you want to follow the guidelines set up for the "X" Tool and the CAM, read about the Stage Limits (http://sc4devotion.com/forums/index.php?topic=1987.0).
Wow, thanks again!
Btw where can I download the X Tool from?
Quote from: cogeo on January 05, 2008, 12:43:50 PM
Btw where can I download the X Tool from?
From a hidden place on my HD, because I still have to finish it
Could someone please answer this:
In the case of growable buildings/lots, what does the simulator really grow, the building or the lot? For ploppables it's almost definite that the user actually selects the building (the lot is specified by the "Lot Resource Key" key property), and this is why it's not possible to make ploppable building families. But in growables such a property does not exist, so I guess the simulator grows the lot.
I'm gonna make three building exemplars for the farm bat/lot I'm currently working on, and I need to know if I need to make three lots (each one referencing a specific building) or instead a single lot (referencing the buidlings through a Building Family). I also have to mention that I tried this for the "farm field" buildings/lots (not the "growable" building/lot) but I run into troubles (eg I was unable to bulldoze them once grown), that is farm fields buildings and lots must be in a 1:1 relation and moreover have the same instance ID!
Another question, has anybody experimented with farm fields lots sized bigger than 1x1? Any considerations, suggestions etc? If someone has experimented (even if failed) please post, this might save me from unfruitful attempts.
Farms grow by the building so you can safely use a building family on a farm lot. If you look at some of my farms you will see that they do just that. Farm fields are a different proposition and so far as I know they can only be 1x1. A long time ago GrampaAl made a farm field template based on the Maxis field and I have used that as the base for all the fields that I made and I think that CSX and SG fields are using the same base. If you would like a copy to study and/or use please let me know and I will email one to you.
Thanks Barby, always very helpful! :)
And yes, I would like to have that template please. I'm actually finished with the farm fields (using cohorts for the common properties, and unfortunately 1:1 building/lot pairs), but I would like to see what the others have done.
Which of your farms are you talking about? Could you be a little more specific? (I would like to check one modded in a way you think that's right, not an older one modded maybe differently). Thanks again!
If you PM me your email address I'll send you the field template.
The farms of mine that use a family are: I-r1_4x4_BLS GA_EuroFarm01v2_af602f14;
I-r2_6x4_BSC_Farm-NA01v1_2f602f3a and I-r3_6x4_BSC_BLS_GA_Wheat_Farmv2. The building exemplars are in the lot file as the different farms use different fields and are for different types of crop. Complicated ;D
Barby can you send cogeo a PIMX generated field instead of the template, because I'm pretty sure the template define more properties than needed
Oops I've sent the template now but can send a PIM_X one as well. ;D
Any idea about the number of jobs in a stage-3 farm for CAM? Pedriana Plants in non-CAM SC4 employ 13 people, but in CAM this has been raised to 88! My farm has 14 IR jobs and it's stage-3. But it dilapidates badly with CAM (employing on 6-7 people), esp if other farms grow.
Is it possible to make a building/lot that works well with and wothout CAM, or instead I need to make two versions?
As farms don't upgrade, stages are really immaterial. In CAM stages 1-3 will grow at roughly the same % so giving more variety instead of a lot of one type. The basis for the stages are mainly on occupancy and as the farm is allocated jobs on size of building we had to look at other options. Most farm lots are bigger to reflect real farms so a decision was made to add jobs to the main lot based on the number of tiles in the lot.
I think you would need to make two versions if you don't want to increase the number of jobs significantly but remember that anything to stage 3 will grow with or without CAM.
OK, here is the farm I'm currently working on: Spirulina Farms. Spirulina is blue-green micro-algae, sold as hygienic food and dietary supplement, as well as astronaut food.
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg406.imageshack.us%2Fimg406%2F6206%2Fspfprvwrg9.jpg&hash=2192d389e00dbab9d74cdb2d232c4722e56b40f1)
The lot uses two new models, the processing/packaging unit (looking like a warehouse) and the drying unit (at back). I'm gonna BAT an additional packaging unit (prop family). The rest are props and prop-families from SC4 and SG Props Mega-Pack.
The farm fields have just two props (algae grow tubs). There are nine tub models. They change appearance twice a year. Unfortunately technical restrictions do not allow to represent exactly the full growth/harvest cycle, so these props change just twice a year. There are also two building exemplars, one that uses all-same tubs (they change appearance twice a year simultaneously) - the game will select one of the props randomly to be used in all farmfields - and another one with various tub props (the one in the pic).
I have also experimented with bigger than 1x1 farmfields (I wished to make larger tub models). The game grows them, but a special zoning arrangement (a sparse one) is required. Then the player has to bulldoze the even-numbered farmfields. Here is a pic (with a draft/test model of course):
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg406.imageshack.us%2Fimg406%2F3710%2Fspfbiguj1.jpg&hash=fd3e343725cdbf7bf8d1528b1dca671501af7e5b)
However this technique has lots of problems, like the fields getting "disconnected" from the main farm lot and therefore displaying no-access zots and lots getting overlapped with themselves, the main farm lot and the roads, thus causing errors like being unable to bulldoze or dezone them later. So I gave up. Maybe I will make them ploppables (just like ploppable industry/commercial) and the player will have to lay strets for every two lots (steets every six tiles, esp those dirt ones will look OK I think).
I have attached my work so far (excl the models) if anybody wants to check/review them.
Thank you all for your help and your comments!
I've had a quick look at the farm and apart from it having far too few jobs I can't see a problem with it. I have 86 jobs on a 5x4 farm. If you think about how Maxis bases occupancy on lot size as well as the actual size of the building, you can see that 14 is way too few for a lot this size no matter how realistic it may be. I would suggest that to keep the farm from dilapidating you increase the jobs to somewhere in the region of 50.
Thanks Barby!
The settings for the building/lot are close to these in Pedriana Plants (they only have 13 jobs in the original RH dats). So I rather need to make two versions, as said above.
As far as I can see CAM changes only the number of jobs, with all other parameters (incl Building Value) left unchanged. That is in both RH and CAM Pedriana Plants will pay the same taxes, despite that in the lalter case they employ as many as 88 sims. Is this the way to go?
Yes I would think so. I don't see why you need 2 versions, though, as the higher jobs will keep the farm going longer anyway and it will grow without CAM.
Has anybody experimented with ploppable I-R lots/buildings?
I have checked SGs ploppable farms, but... these are not actually farms, they are CS and I-M lots and buildings. Why this? Is there any known problem with ploppable I-R lots and using CS and I-M was just a workaround?
How about the settings below?
In the Lot Exemplar:
- Set Growth Stage to 0xFF (prevents it from growing)
- Set LotConfigPropertyZoneTypes to 0x0F (civic ?).
- Set LotConfigPropertyWealthTypes to 0x01 (low wealth). In some of SGs lots this was left empty, in some others it's 0x02.
- Set LotConfigPropertyPurposeTypes to 0x05.
In the Building Exemplar:
- Set Wealth to low wealth
- Set Purpose to Agriculture
- Set Capacity Satisfied to Industry Resource, #jobs#
- Set Occupant Types to 0x00004100
- Set all properties needed for ploppables (Plop/Bulldoze Cost, Building Value, Item Icon, Item Order etc)
- Set Occupant Groups to Building:Landmark, Building:IA
Is there something missing?
The above settings are the I-R equivalents to CS (haven't yet tested them though)
How about the following Occupant Groups: Building:Industrial, Building:Farmland, Industry:Out (used in SC4 farms), Automata:Farm Vehicles?
I have no clue what these Occupant Groups do. In the CS ploppables I have seen, the Building:Commercial OC (looks similar to Building:Industrial) is not used, looks like these OCs are for growables only.
What exactly Industry:Out and Building:Farmland mean?
Any help on the questions above would be highly appreciated.
The X_Tool allows the making of I-R plops and if you have a look at Kwakelaar's Palais Kolkhof plop you will see it has I-R jobs. Unfortunately you will still have to wait on wouanagaine to finish the program before you can use it.
I have not tested plopable farms myself
however here is my rambling :
Plopable industries suffer the 'long' freight time, same kind of bug as plopable residential, no one ( sims or freight ) can escape the lot, resulting in the long time. However Industries lots are much more tolerants than residential in regards to the long time vs dilapidation ratio - an industrial lot can easily 'survive' with a long freight time
I'm assuming as farming lots have freight time, that they'll get the same problem
Only plopables with CO/CS jobs are fully ok as they don't need anything to go out ( like any civics lot )
Quote from: BarbyW on February 19, 2008, 01:20:42 PM
The X_Tool allows the making of I-R plops and if you have a look at Kwakelaar's Palais Kolkhof plop you will see it has I-R jobs. Unfortunately you will still have to wait on wouanagaine to finish the program before you can use it.
I should ???
@Barby: Thanks for the quick reply. I have just checked Kwakellar's lot and compared to what I proposed above, the only difference I can find is that it uses the Industry:Out Occupant Group. Is this really needed? What does this do exactly?
@wouanagaine: Thanks! You mean I have to consider making it a CS instead? One of reasons I chose I-R is the "farmsfields" and the dirt roads. The ploppable "farmfields" (actually modded as "normal" I-R ploppables) will be 3x2 large. As these are "lots" (not "real" farmfields) they need road access, and I thought that a dirt road/street between every two "farmfields would look OK. Making the lots/buildings I-R would cause the dirt roads/streets to appear instead of the paved ones. Any suggestion?
Quote from: cogeo on February 19, 2008, 01:47:27 PM
@Barby: Thanks for the quick reply. I have just checked Kwakellar's lot and compared to what I proposed above, the only difference I can find is that it uses the Industry:Out Occupant Group. Is this really needed? What does this do exactly?
Industry OG are split in 3 groups ( besides ID IM & IHT ), you have
Industry:Anchor => main building, requires to be build with road access
Industry:Out & Industry:Mechanical => satellite buildings, they do not need road access, but they only build near ( ie touching ) an anchor building
I used to know the exact difference between Out and Mechanical but I forgot, I'm sure Ripplejet or BarbyW will make a definite call on that matter.
Quote from: cogeo on February 19, 2008, 01:47:27 PM
@wouanagaine: Thanks! You mean I have to consider making it a CS instead? One of reasons I chose I-R is the "farmsfields" and the dirt roads. The ploppable "farmfields" (actually modded as "normal" I-R ploppables) will be 3x2 large. As these are "lots" (not "real" farmfields) they need road access, and I thought that a dirt road/street between every two "farmfields would look OK. Making the lots/buildings I-R would cause the dirt roads/streets to appear instead of the paved ones. Any suggestion?
From the top of my head, I think the dirt road/street will appear if the LotConfigPropertyWealthTypes & LotConfigPropertyPurposeTypes are set to IR-$.
Now there are chances that making them IR ( building wise ) will produce early dilapidation, but this will need testing
Quote from: cogeo on February 19, 2008, 01:13:22 PM
What exactly Industry:Out and Building:Farmland mean?
Just as Wouanagaine said:
Industrial buildings can be either Anchor, Mechanical or Out.
Anchor buildings are those that grow first and require road access.
Mechanical and Out are filler lots that need an Anchor nearby to grow, but no road.
If you route query a Mechanical or an Out lot, you will see that all workers are coming to and all freight is going from the nearby Anchor.
Mechanical are usually buildings that represent power stations, generators, and such.
Out are buildings that represent sheds, storage facilities, etc.
Mechanical and Out each have a 50% chance of growing.
For some reason all farm buildings are Out though...
And these Out buildings do require road access.
Building: IA (0x14100) is only used for MySim Balloons, but as a rule it is set to all custom farm buildings as well.
@wouanagaine and @RippleJet: Thanks! I have seen those OGs many times, but never knew what they are exactly.
Setting the LotConfigPropertyPurposeTypes property has no effect on displaying farm roads. These were I-R$ from the start. Setting LotConfigPropertyZoneTypes has no effect either. There is only one workaround, zoning IR at the opposite side of the road/street turns the farm roads/strrets on.
Experimented a little more with ploppable farms, but setting those OGs in ploppable farms appears to have no noticable effect (at least they don't solve the no freight/no workers problem). Maybe it would be meaningful to set them for conformity and/or statistics, though the a setting of Building:Landmark, Building:IA alone appears to work the same. What should I do?
I have found a sort of workaround though:
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg292.imageshack.us%2Fimg292%2F3006%2Fspfprvw3qq9.jpg&hash=a4180ff63b5a283fac40cdb3c4cfcce620b49ec6)
The farm lot at the front (6x4) is a "normal" growable farm (without farm-fields though). The smaller (3x2) lots at the back are ploppable farms (setting Industry:Out or not appears to have no effect). This way those "virtual" farm-fields appear to somehow "attach" to the growable farm at the front. They do not require road access, looks like they are served by the lot at the front. They do require water though and if they are not watered they dilapidate and get abandoned; setting Water Consumed to 0, or removing this property completely does not solve this.
Some questions:
- Does anybody know what affects the number of freight trucks reported in the traffic simulator?
- The dirt roads shown here are standard SC4 base textures (range 0x261#####). There is no "crossroad-near-the-corner" texture in this set, there is crossroad-in-the-middle one, but what you see here is a T-junction-near-the-corner one, hence the glitch. It would be quite easy to make a complatible texture, but is there a ready-made one?
- I wish to make them behave better on slopes, but there is a little problem: if you make the model (tub) the main building this causes a building foundation to be displayed. It's OK, but this allows only two models to be displayed (switched by using a Resource Key Type 4 property and appropriate time properties). If you want more than two models that change with time you can use timed props, but this causes a different problem: the building foundation is displayed normally (the building displays no model) but the props (sized and placed exactly on the building rectangle) may be displayed at a wrong height; while the leveled surface is at the highest point of the building rectangle (and the building would go there too), props are rather placed at the average height, ie partly under ground, causing a visual glitch. Any idea on how to fix this?
- And finally a question about CAM. What do I need to make these "CAMelots". Is setting the appropriate number of jobs and the additional Occupant Groups enough? These are stage-3 anyway.
Thank you all for your comments and your help.
Quote from: wouanagaine on February 19, 2008, 01:32:06 PM
I have not tested plopable farms myself
however here is my rambling :
Plopable industries suffer the 'long' freight time, same kind of bug as plopable residential, no one ( sims or freight ) can escape the lot, resulting in the long time. However Industries lots are much more tolerants than residential in regards to the long time vs dilapidation ratio - an industrial lot can easily 'survive' with a long freight time
I'm assuming as farming lots have freight time, that they'll get the same problem
Only plopables with CO/CS jobs are fully ok as they don't need anything to go out ( like any civics lot )
I should ???
On this, I have seen somewhere, I think from Peg but not 100% sure, that Com lots do suffer from a similar problem. They will not recognise traffic on the road outside and will always show Low on their stats.
Quote from: cogeo on February 21, 2008, 09:04:55 AM
Experimented a little more with ploppable farms, but setting those OGs in ploppable farms appears to have no noticable effect (at least they don't solve the no freight/no workers problem). Maybe it would be meaningful to set them for conformity and/or statistics, though the a setting of Building:Landmark, Building:IA alone appears to work the same. What should I do?
The occupant groups for Industrial Subtypes (Anchor, Mechanical and Out) only have relevance for growable industry.
It's a factor taken into account when the developer chooses which building to grow on a tract.
Building:Landmark is the only required one, but I would also include Building:IA.
Mainly because we can never be sure in what context the game uses that.
Building:Out isn't needed for ploppable farms.
Quote from: cogeo on February 21, 2008, 09:04:55 AM
This way those "virtual" farm-fields appear to somehow "attach" to the growable farm at the front. They do not require road access, looks like they are served by the lot at the front.
Have you tried to route query those "farm fields" (I suppose they are farm lots, not fields that are sized 1x1 and only can appear next to growable farms)?
Those ploppable "farm fields" probably have a growth stage of 0xFF (255). Since the water cap for farms is set at 3 (both for RH and CAM), every farm of stage 4 and above would require water. Could you test by setting the growth stage in the LotConfig exemplar to 3 or lower?
Quote from: cogeo on February 21, 2008, 09:04:55 AM
They do require water though and if they are not watered they dilapidate and get abandoned; setting Water Consumed to 0, or removing this property completely does not solve this.
Those ploppable "farm fields" probably have a growth stage of 0xFF (255). Since the water cap for farms is set at 3 (both for RH and CAM), every farm of stage 4 and above would require water. Could you test by setting the growth stage in the LotConfig exemplar to 3 or lower?
Quote from: cogeo on February 21, 2008, 09:04:55 AM
Some questions:
- Does anybody know what affects the number of freight trucks reported in the traffic simulator?
I am not sure how the number of trucks is calculated.
I would suspect the desirability of the tract is an important factor though.
Quote from: cogeo on February 21, 2008, 09:04:55 AM
- The dirt roads shown here are standard SC4 base textures (range 0x261#####). There is no "crossroad-near-the-corner" texture in this set, there is crossroad-in-the-middle one, but what you see here is a T-junction-near-the-corner one, hence the glitch. It would be quite easy to make a complatible texture, but is there a ready-made one?
I'll skip that one and hope someone else would answer...
Quote from: cogeo on February 21, 2008, 09:04:55 AM
- I wish to make them behave better on slopes, but there is a little problem: if you make the model (tub) the main building this causes a building foundation to be displayed. It's OK, but this allows only two models to be displayed (switched by using a Resource Key Type 4 property and appropriate time properties). If you want more than two models that change with time you can use timed props, but this causes a different problem: the building foundation is displayed normally (the building displays no model) but the props (sized and placed exactly on the building rectangle) may be displayed at a wrong height; while the leveled surface is at the highest point of the building rectangle (and the building would go there too), props are rather placed at the average height, ie partly under ground, causing a visual glitch. Any idea on how to fix this?
The size of the building foundation is set by the width and depth in the property Occupant Size.
That also sets the size of the scaffolding for building that construct.
You should be able to reduce the width and depth to 0 to virtually remove the building foundation.
The zero level for props is always the average height of the area the prop covers.
You can of course raise the prop in LE, but that would probably look stupid on flat ground instead...
The only solution would of course be to lower the value for the property LotConfigPropertyMaxSlopeAllowed.
Quote from: cogeo on February 21, 2008, 09:04:55 AM
- And finally a question about CAM. What do I need to make these "CAMelots". Is setting the appropriate number of jobs and the additional Occupant Groups enough? These are stage-3 anyway.
Now we're talking growable, not ploppable, right? ::)
If the growth stage will remain as 3, then we're not talking about making a CAMeLot.
In that case we're talking about CAMpatible property values.
The occupant groups are only required if the growth stage is 4 or higher.
There are several properties that depend on the correct occupancy though, such as pollution, consumption, etc.
For farms these values are seldom screwed if made by Maxis PIM, in the same way as certain CS buildings would be.
If you want true CAMpatible farms, send me a PM and we'll take it from there! ;)
Quote from: RippleJet on February 21, 2008, 12:31:24 PM
Building:Landmark is the only required one, but I would also include Building:IA.
Mainly because we can never be sure in what context the game uses that.
Building:Out isn't needed for ploppable farms.
Indeed, the OGs for all these ploppables are Building:Landmark, Building:IA. Just asked if I need to include also Building:Out (you verified that I don't).
Quote from: RippleJet on February 21, 2008, 12:31:24 PM
Have you tried to route query those "farm fields" (I suppose they are farm lots, not fields that are sized 1x1 and only can appear next to growable farms)?
Yes, and this is what I mean they "attach" to the growable one. When I query them the traffic paths of the growable are displayed instead, just like with I mechanical and out, ie they appear to be somehow grouped. As you can see, the ones in the pic do not display no access zots, and there is a second row of them, adjacent to the first row, not the growable! If I plop one of these w/o road access and not adjacent to another lot, it will display the zot. And of course, yes, these are ploppable farms, not real farmfields.
Quote from: RippleJet on February 21, 2008, 12:31:24 PM
Those ploppable "farm fields" probably have a growth stage of 0xFF (255). Since the water cap for farms is set at 3 (both for RH and CAM), every farm of stage 4 and above would require water. Could you test by setting the growth stage in the LotConfig exemplar to 3 or lower?
Didn't know this, but if I set the stage to 3, then how would I prevent them from growing? Just by setting the LotConfigPropertyZoneTypes to 0x0F alone (or removing all values)? Is this enough?
Quote from: RippleJet on February 21, 2008, 12:31:24 PM
The size of the building foundation is set by the width and depth in the property Occupant Size.
That also sets the size of the scaffolding for building that construct.
You should be able to reduce the width and depth to 0 to virtually remove the building foundation.
The zero level for props is always the average height of the area the prop covers.
You can of course raise the prop in LE, but that would probably look stupid on flat ground instead...
The only solution would of course be to lower the value for the property LotConfigPropertyMaxSlopeAllowed.
Didn't want to keep the building foundation from being displayed, what I want is to have the foundation displayed right under the model and display more than 2 models in the same place (empty, half empty, various phases). This is not possible by setting the buidling properties (this allows up to two models only). So what I did was make a building exemplar sized exactly the same as the (seasonal prop(s). The building exemplar shows no model, it was just needed to be sized correctly so as to cause a correctly sized foundation to be displayed. The props would supposedly be displayed on top of that flattened area, but as said above they are not correctly aligned vertically. Pitty there isn't such a thing as "Prop Foundation". I think the only possible solution would be to limit the max slope allowed and remove the foundation completely, ie simply exhaust the model's tolerances. Making LODs underground doesn't deliver good results in general (glitches when selecting/unselecting the lot/model). The other solution would of course be limit the models to just two, eg an empty and a full tub. I'm not done with BATting yet, the only model I've made so far is the one you see in the pic (this solution would be faster too :P).
Quote from: RippleJet on February 21, 2008, 12:31:24 PM
Now we're talking growable, not ploppable, right? ::)
If the growth stage will remain as 3, then we're not talking about making a CAMeLot.
In that case we're talking about CAMpatible property values.
The occupant groups are only required if the growth stage is 4 or higher.
There are several properties that depend on the correct occupancy though, such as pollution, consumption, etc.
For farms these values are seldom screwed if made by Maxis PIM, in the same way as certain CS buildings would be.
I was just talking about a lot/building that could be used with CAM. My current lots face abandonment issues due to the low number of occupants (14 for the main farm lot, 6 for the 3x2 farmfields) - I do have CAM installed. Pedriana plants employ only 13 sims in SC4/RH, but in CAM this has been raised to 88 with all other parameters (incl the stage) having been left unchanged. So is this the way to go?
Quote from: cogeo on February 21, 2008, 03:42:42 PM
Didn't know this, but if I set the stage to 3, then how would I prevent them from growing? Just by setting the LotConfigPropertyZoneTypes to 0x0F alone (or removing all values)? Is this enough?
A growable farm (like all growable industries) needs the Occupant Group 0x1002 (Building: Industry).
Quote from: cogeo on February 21, 2008, 03:42:42 PM
I was just talking about a lot/building that could be used with CAM. My current lots face abandonment issues due to the low number of occupants (14 for the main farm lot, 6 for the 3x2 farmfields) - I do have CAM installed. Pedriana plants employ only 13 sims in SC4/RH, but in CAM this has been raised to 88 with all other parameters (incl the stage) having been left unchanged. So is this the way to go?
The low number of occupants shouldn't be a reason for abandonment.
The number of occupants would be higher if modded by the "X" Tool though. ;)
All ploppable industries do suffer from reduced desirability dut to long freight trips though.
Tried setting Growth Stage to 3, and the lot now doesn't need water. Thanks RippleJet!
I'm almost done now, I just need to finish the documentation.
Can someone please answer this: Is the Occupant Types property really needed? Didn't try removing it, but checked the ingame buildings and didn't find a single example of a building using it, directly or through cohorts. It is being used a lot in custom content though (both growables and ploppables). Any clue?
It seems to be something that Maxis adds via the PIM, but custom content creators copy it over to their content as well. I'm not sure what it does, but it is probably redundant considering the other properties that are in place for jobs/residents in growables.
-Swamper
Evidence for that property not really being needed, are all those landmarks that grow on empty lots if they belong to an in-game growable building family.
None of those landmarks have the Occupant Types property.
Having correct values in the property Capacity Satisfied is enough. ;)
Thanks again RippleJet!
One final question: is there anything I need to change (apart from the number of jobs) to make "CAMpatible" buildings/lots? I have checked how the ingame stuff (eg Pedriana Plants) has been modded for CAM, and from what I was able to see, only the number of jobs has been changed.
The stats (so far) are listed below:
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg138.imageshack.us%2Fimg138%2F4227%2Fspfstatsul2.jpg&hash=0f9c4e62a21366667bd996a6fe0fb19c054c3497)
Anything I need to change?
Basically there aren't many properties you must change.
However, I know you want to know exactly how those values would be calculated in PIM-X ::)
So, here goes:
Volume = Filling Degree × Width × Depth × Height
Jobs = 2 + INT (Volume/750) + Number of tiles in the lot
BiasedJobs = INT ( MIN(50,Jobs) × MAX(1,SQRT(Jobs/50)) )
Air Pollution = INT (1+0.125×BiasedJobs)
Water Pollution = INT (1+0.25×BiasedJobs)
Garbage Pollution = INT (1+0.2×BiasedJobs)
Power Consumption = INT (1+0.4×BiasedJobs)
Water Consumption = INT (1+5×BiasedJobs)
Building Value = INT (154.83×BiasedJobs)
Bulldoze Cost = Worth = INT (30+10×Height)
Construction Time = INT (Worth/10)
Plop Cost = 2 × INT (154.83×Worth)
The above formulas based on your main lot, estimating the building size:
LOD Width = 45 m
LOD Depth = 30 m
LOD Height = 6 m
Filling Degree = 0.8
Volume = 0.8×45×30×6 = 6480
Jobs = 2 + 8 + 24 = 34
BiasedJobs = 34
Air Pollution = 5
Water Pollution = 9
Garbage Pollution = 7
Power Consumption = 14
Water Consumption = 171
Building Value = 5264
Bulldoze Cost = Worth = 90
Construction Time = 9
Plop Cost = 27868
I'm having a problem relating to this... I am trying to make a custom farm field and farm lot without overwriting maxis' farm fields. This seems impossible with the lot editor and I have absolutely no idea where to start. I did some experimenting with the reader, but to no avail. I only confused myself further and I've been searching on forums for something detailing what I would have to do to create this... but it seems there isn't any tutorials or anything like that explaining it. Could anyone help me out?
Cogeo! Glad to see you applying your curiousity to SC4 again.. these look like they will be great adders..
@kaos: This does take some steps, the problem is that you cannot "Save As" those Maxis farm-fields. Below is what I did (it's definitely NOT the only way). The idea is to get new IDs for your farm-fields (not conflicting with and/or overwriting the SC4 ones). As posted earlier in this thread, there seems to be a "hardcoded" requirement that for farm-fields both the lot and the building exemplars must have the same instance IDs. This is also the case with ploppables, so you can make use of this feature of LE, just to get new IDs. So:
- Open the LE and select any ploppable lot from the list (a subway station, a small plaza, etc).
- Click "Save As" and give the new lot a different (and final) name, eg FarmFields_Kaos_01.
- Now close the LE and open the new lot (.SC4Lot) file in the Reader. You must see the "classic" entries for a ploppable, ie two exemplars (lot and bldg) two PNGs (preview and buttons) and an LD file.
- Run another instance of the reader and open simcity_1.dat. Use the navigator to find a proper farmfields lot/building pair (you will base your lot on these). Copy the lot and building exemplar and paste them into your .SC4Lot file.
- As you can see these (copied) exemplars have different instance IDs, so you need to change these. If you are familiar with the TGI editor, select the two SC4-copied exemplars and change the instance IDs so that they are the same as yours. Otherwise you can do this using the pop-up menu commands. Highlight the original (subway,plaza,etc) building exemplar, right-click and select "Copy Entry ID". Then go to the copied (farm-field) building exemplar, right-click and select "Paste Entry ID" (highlight another exemplar for the changes to show-up). Repeat the above step for the lot exemplar.
- Now go to the original lot exemplar, open the Exemplar Name property and copy the name. Then go to the copied exemplar and paste the name (it should be FarmFields_Kaos_01). This is necessary in order to keep LE from saving the new Lot under a different filename every time. You can also change the (copied) farm-field Exemplar Name to something different, eg change the original Maxis name (sth like FarmField2_2a6e4309) with sth like FarmField_Bldg_Kaos_01.
- Delete the three unneeded files, ie the two original (subway,plaza,etc) lot and bldg exemplars and the PNG button images (not the preview one).
- Go to the lot exemplar and locate the LotConfig line that contains the building reference (the one and only LotConfig line starting with a 0). Edit this property. The last rep is the building instance ID. Since this was copied from simcity_1.dat it contains the original value. Change this to the instance ID of your building.
- Save the file and exit the reader.
- Backup the modified lot (copy the .SC4Lot file somewhere out of your Plugins folder), so that you can modify/fix it later, should anything go wrong.
- Run the LE and open the (new) farmfield lot. Make sure that it opens correctly, and that when you save it the LE does not create a new file, instead it overwrites the opened one).
At this point you have a farm-field lot/building, identical to Maxis' and editable in the LE. You can add/remove/change textures and props as usual. Unfortunately you cannot "Save As" this lot (even if you set that "Unknown" property in iLive), so the above procedure must be repeated for every new farm-field you make.
Hope this helps.
@SC4BOY: Thanks for the nice comments. They are released now (both on the STEX and LEX).
It would be much easier to use one of the BSC farm fields to start with ;D
Barby, can you give us an example? Can't find a farmfield lot for which I can click "Save As" (it's disabled) and have the LE creating a new lot/building pair with growable farm-fields. From what I have seen, this works either for ploppables, or common growables (in this latter case it will create a .SC4Lot file containing only the lot exemplar, the PNG preview and the LD file - the building exemplar is missing).
Didn't say the way I made this is the only one, nor the easiest one. It would be interesting to see a different way though.
Thank you cogeo and Barbyw i really appreciate the help. =]
I'll try this right away.
okay the only other question i have is how do i assign that field to my specific farm?
The building exemplar files of the farms (the lot with the farm building) has a property called "Field Lots". It contains one or more instance IDs of the associated farm field lots.
i changed the IID of the field lots to the one of my field and now the farm won't grow at all...sorry for asking so many questions im very new at this.
Make sure the Field Lots property contains the instance ID of your lot and building farm-field.
This property is not a simple integer value, instead it's an array of values. It can contain a list of farm-field IDs, and the game will select amongst them randomly. If the list contains only one element, the rep count shown in the property list should be 1, not 0!
do i put 0x before the instance id?
No, just the Rep Count (4th column) in the properties list should be 1 instead of 0, and the list should contain one element. Just see my (or any other) lots, you can copy and paste this property (and of course delete the number of field references to 1 and change the ID to yours).
again im sorry im so confused but before i test i wanna make sure i have this right:
When I open the exemplar for the farm's desc file i get this under field lots:
Name: Name Value: Data Type: Rep: Value:
Field Lots 0x29B55F73 Uint32 1 0xB4D4E843
The IID is correct (I double checked a bunch of times) and the rep reads 1 so I don't know why it wasn't growing. I had tested the farm with maxis' farm fields before and it grew (infrequently but it grew)... I have no idea whats going on. Maybe I should just do another test run and see if it just didn't grow by chance.
It looks OK. Then check for duplicate lot files: open your Plugins folder, select View->Details and sort items by modification date. Go to the end of the list and check the last few plugins one by one, there may be duplicate/older/trash/temp/etc plugins there.
If everything is OK you can attach everything (lots, plugins etc) except models, if any, in this thread in order to be tested. There may be something wrong with modding the farm lot(s) or the farm-fields.
I started with one of the farm fields I made for the CAM farms but it isn't a CAM field $%Grinno$%
First of all in LE I selected my field:
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi5.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fy171%2Fbarbyw%2Fselectfield.jpg&hash=6bb0bbcf9bd39ad4c38f702d2b14d2684b2e4acb)
I made some changes in LE, selected Save As and gave it a new name:
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi5.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fy171%2Fbarbyw%2Fsaveasfield.jpg&hash=868e68a207d771a866644dcb5908821b33f70d5c)
I opened the field file in Reader and changed the name:
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi5.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fy171%2Fbarbyw%2FnewfieldReader.jpg&hash=d159969d60ae1bd1e68e573486e4e130ca32e9bd)
I then opened the Sphynx CAM farm (the only appropriate one for this field) and found the property Field Lots in the Building Exemplar. I added the IID for the new field. reindexed, rebuilt Directory and Saved.
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi5.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fy171%2Fbarbyw%2Fnewfieldadded.jpg&hash=3ce3e527004c454dc551099a4eb761a7e97beb5b)
There is no problem using any BLS field as a base but the best ones are the set I made for CAM as they are not in a dat file. These have virtually the same properties as Maxis fields as they are all made from a template that GrampaAl made for me 4 years ago and that I have used ever since.
I hope this helps.
Thanks for the tutorial Barby!
@kaos, just got an idea, first try growing your farm using Maxis or BLS farm-fields (or any farm-fields that are known to be working). This can help you identify the problem more easily.
It worked! Omgzors! Cogeo, it worked! Good news! Now, onto working on the other farm field lots so it won't be so consistent, and I think I need to improve on the farms model itself. Anyone care to tell me how to make seasonal farm fields? =P
That might be worthy of its own tutorial eh?
Quote from: kaos78414 on March 03, 2008, 01:00:29 PM
Anyone care to tell me how to make seasonal farm fields? =P
That might be worthy of its own tutorial eh?
The props on the field need to be timed props, e.g. two separate props appearing half a year each.
Read more about it here:
Timed props ... (http://sc4devotion.com/forums/index.php?topic=2873.0)
Thanks RippleJet, I'll check it out.
Quote from: kaos78414 on March 03, 2008, 01:00:29 PM
It worked! Omgzors! Cogeo, it worked! Good news! Now, onto working on the other farm field lots so it won't be so consistent, and I think I need to improve on the farms model itself. Anyone care to tell me how to make seasonal farm fields? =P
That might be worthy of its own tutorial eh?
This is what makes this site great. Even after so many years people are still learning new things and getting excited about seeing their work in the game.. :thumbsup:
Go for it Kaos. &apls
Haha well I was so excited in fact, (and I have never done 3d modeling before now) that I bought 3ds max today, and have just installed BAT4Max and can't wait to get started trying it out. Although the process of exporting an sc4 model file with bat4max seems rather tedious... I'm still pretty excited. ::)