Maxis Highway Override (Project Symphony) - Development & Support

[pieman101]

  i think i just pee'd my pants.  JK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Tarkus]

i think i just pee'd my pants.  JK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You'll have to clean up the mess.  We don't have janitorial staff.

Regarding the myriad of tunnel-related questions, tunnels are messy creatures with a lot of hardcoded hooks, and there's also a lot of special RUL tricks applied to the Maxis Highway system that make the prospects of turning a 15m-high tunnel portal (the portal itself actually hits 23.5m by default) into a 7.5m-high tunnel portal very difficult.

This is what happens when trying to do so:



It's not pretty, likely due to the bounding box property having some hardcoded back-end that was simply "parroted" in the exemplar by the developers, as is the case with most things dealing with tunnels.  Because of this, I wouldn't put a lot of stock into the feasibility of the notion of changing their level and width. 

-Alex

[MandelSoft]

^^ Yes, I have actually had to create a slope mod for this to make the tunnel portal fit, though the slope restriction isn't that strict...

[Durfsurn]

Though all of is hard coded stuff is it still possible to make those tunnels looking nice?

[jdenm8]

I'm going to put into blunt words what everyone else has been politely saying. We can't get it working to a level we're satisfied with, so we are not doing it.

We cannot do Dual 6S tunnels since 6S has an overhang and the game doesn't punch a large enough hole in the ground for it to work. Not to mention that it'd be incompatible with most slope mods.

We can't change it into a wide RHW tunnel since there are things that the game does that are hardcoded, which makes it impossible. For example, the game uses the same path file for both sides which is true for the draggable sections as well. This is something we can't change.

Then there's the fact that only one type can be loaded for each tunnel. Maxis didn't use a system similar to the bridges and we can't just swap out networks willy-nilly. Removing the EMHWY tunnel may make more "sense" to those who know, but to the person who just loaded up an old city and had a heavily-commuted tunnel stop working because we've changed the function of an implemented game object to something that it wasn't intended for? That's not good modding practice for any game.

Since we can't do it to a standard which we find acceptable, we won't do it.

[noahclem]

Regarding the myriad of tunnel-related questions, tunnels are messy creatures with a lot of hardcoded hooks, and there's also a lot of special RUL tricks applied to the Maxis Highway system that make the prospects of turning a 15m-high tunnel portal (the portal itself actually hits 23.5m by default) into a 7.5m-high tunnel portal very difficult.

This is what happens when trying to do so:



It's not pretty, likely due to the bounding box property having some hardcoded back-end that was simply "parroted" in the exemplar by the developers, as is the case with most things dealing with tunnels.  Because of this, I wouldn't put a lot of stock into the feasibility of the notion of changing their level and width. 

-Alex

Very interesting. So while the 23.5m height of the tunnel portal wouldn't be a problem, changing the level where the paths/road network enter the tunnel causes the bottom of the tunnel entrance to jump 15m? Do I guess correctly that the same type of problem would apply to using monorail tunnels for GHSR? Too bad Maxis made such things so difficult, how could they not have envisioned the need for an eventual RHW-6 tunnel back in '04? 

^^ Yes, I have actually had to create a slope mod for this to make the tunnel portal fit, though the slope restriction isn't that strict...

Yeah, my understanding is that any change in tunnel entrance height requires an altered terrain mod

I'm going to put into blunt words what everyone else has been politely saying. We can't get it working to a level we're satisfied with, so we are not doing it.

I don't think that anyone, certainly not myself, was trying to be offensive or demanding. Most of us can't see the things that you've tried to do that aren't possible so I hope you'll forgive us for inquiring about them. I hope that outside ideas and suggestions are still welcome in this thread.

We cannot do Dual 6S tunnels since 6S has an overhang and the game doesn't punch a large enough hole in the ground for it to work. Not to mention that it'd be incompatible with most slope mods.

I'm aware of that limitation and apologize for not making my suggestion more clear. What I had envisioned in my suggestion was a narrowed version of RHW6S, losing most of the median and a bit of the shoulder. That idea would require some kind of transition to a real RHW-6 and thus require NAM controller changes, putting it firmly outside the possibilities of independent modding. As mentioned above, any changes to tunnel entrance height require slope mod changes.

We can't change it into a wide RHW tunnel since there are things that the game does that are hardcoded, which makes it impossible. For example, the game uses the same path file for both sides which is true for the draggable sections as well. This is something we can't change.

Thanks for explaining.

Then there's the fact that only one type can be loaded for each tunnel. Maxis didn't use a system similar to the bridges and we can't just swap out networks willy-nilly. Removing the EMHWY tunnel may make more "sense" to those who know, but to the person who just loaded up an old city and had a heavily-commuted tunnel stop working because we've changed the function of an implemented game object to something that it wasn't intended for? That's not good modding practice for any game.

Of course tunnels don't work like bridges and the game only recognizes a single tunnel per network. There are workarounds though, for example STR and TTR can have tunnels, though obviously it's a matter of more than simply dragging a rail tunnel attached to the override network of your choice. You're right that any modding something like these tunnels could cause problems for some users and it would make most sense to release something like that as a separate mod or an optional component, a la DBE. Even Maarten's tunnel modding will cause small (cosmetic) problems for Symphony users if they don't have a slope mod with the correct tunnel entrance properties. Best practice modding takes account of potential problems for beginner users but shouldn't completely rule out anything that could ever cause some person some trouble if used incorrectly (DBE, pre-override HSR...). Perhaps 1% of users will ask where did my water go or why couldn't I draw monorail but they other 99% shouldn't suffer because they couldn't read the large red warning.

[jdenm8]

I don't think that anyone, certainly not myself, was trying to be offensive or demanding.

I don't think that at all. It's more that it's been said at least three times that repurposing the EMHW tunnel wasn't likely to happen,

In other words, that's a dual RHW-4 tunnel. What about MIS? 6S? 8C? Those would need a funny workaround.

Because of this, I wouldn't put a lot of stock into the feasibility of the notion of changing their level and width. 

EMHW tunnels exist, but they're meant for EMHW.

And yet people keep requesting it.

Though all of is hard coded stuff is it still possible to make those tunnels looking nice?

Nice work on the tunnel but is there anyway it can be converted to a RHW-6 using only 2 tiles and then perhaps a puzzle piece to convert to a RHW-6C/S? I'd love to be able to get my hands on a wider, 6 lane higher capacity highway tunnel instead of just being stuck with 4 lane tunnels.

Great stuff again    Do EMHW tunnels exist? If so it would be great to have them modded into an RHW-looking texture with 6 lanes, not elevated.

I've been wearing a bit thin myself lately for some reason. I need to play more games.

[MandelSoft]

Well, I have some bad news: due to LODding and dimension issues, modding Maxis bridges is suspended for now for the first version of Symphony...

[Gugu3]

 
anyway what you've done is amazing!!!we can always deconvert to RHW and use RHW4 plain bridges or the compact suspension bridge!

[samerton]

That is a shame, but as Gugu3 says, what you've already done is absolutely amazing, and there are always alternatives

[Monorail Master]

Well, I have some bad news: due to LODding and dimension issues, modding Maxis bridges is suspended for now for the first version of Symphony...

The timing...


Who doesn't hate Mondays?

[sunv123]

It's okay, we know you work so much on this and spend your precious time on it, but when something goes wrong with it, it's okay, we can find a workaround. Wait, it comes with a USA/Canada/Western version, right?

[Wiimeiser]

So the default bridges can't be changed, at least not easily or legally?

Then that compact RHW bridge will need LHD support. Why it doesn't already have it is beyond me.

[jondor]

So the default bridges can't be changed, at least not easily or legally?

Then that compact RHW bridge will need LHD support. Why it doesn't already have it is beyond me.

The default bridges are difficult to change, at least as far as the MHW is concerned, because bridges use RKT1 style models (i.e. prerendered low-poly models, one for each zoom and rotation, 20 in all) and the MHW model is baked in.

With the road bridges, it's a simple matter to duplicate all the models and RULs and slip in a flat plane just above the road deck and effectively re-texture it with minimal effort.  The MHW model is complicated and not so easy to just cover up.  Replacing the bridges would likely mean modeling all new ones.

At least as far as I know. 

[MandelSoft]

^^ I couldn't say any better, but that's exactly the problem I'm facing with. Not only that, but the bridges are also too narrow...

[Wiimeiser]

Still, that means LHD users will have no way of building bridges.

[Tarkus]

Not really.  All that needs to be done to make that bridge LHD compatible is clone handful of path files to a new IID.

-Alex

[teddyrised]

It's alright folks like us would be more than happy to use substitute networks as bridges - I've been using avenues for side-by-side RHW4 bridges, anyway.

Modelling bridges does consume a tremendous amount of time and effort - so it shouldn't be called bad news at all. It should be called... future enhancements I know the NAM team has always strived to create an all-rounded, complete project before releasing it, but without the bridges - that sits just fine with most of us, I believe

[jdenm8]

Still, that means LHD users will have no way of building bridges.

A. If a bridge is put in one of the right IID ranges, they'll be flipped by the game automatically.
B. One of the (Partially inactive) developers of this mod plays in LHD Exclusively.
C. All of the new Dual RHW-4 bridges (We haven't mentioned that there's going to be, I think, two new ones) have functioning LHD packages.
D. The only currently released Dual RHW-4 bridge does have an LHD package, but it was never included with it for some reason. I'll do some work to dig it up and post it.

[catty]

I have removed the previous post in this topic, I would like to remind people that being dis-respectfulness to other people on this site will not be tolerated.

catty
Global Moderator