"ModPack" - Plugins Akallan

[Silur]

We must not violate the rights BATers

[kbieniu7]

I read all the post in this thread carefully. Unfotunately, do not have much time fot thinking deeply.

You might be right, that we may a little bit overexaggerating with the strict idea of copyrights. Me personally, I'm an ethusiasts of OpenSource and I believe the majority of other creators will do no problems with this topic, but we need to be aware, that many users actually HAD declared "no reuploading without notyfing the author" or similiar. And that's an dead-end for such file, without asking.

From my side, I've already mentioned the discussion at SimCityPolska, the first response is, that making re-entry easier is a key. Nothing much for the moment, but I'll try to contact all of our custom content creators if they agree to make a statement or just give their permission to republish their work at several main sides (I think it's better to host any packs or reuploads at "official" exchanges, as they are much more trustworthy and under control, than links to any cloud drives - like Tarkus mentioned "fly-by-nights" uploadings).

[vortext]

[...]  we need to be aware, that many users actually HAD declared "no reuploading without notyfing the author" or similiar.

This hits the nail on the head imho. Changing the rules of the game after the players have left the field, so to speak, and another reason why it's difficult to navigate towards a viable solution.

[Silur]

I like "SimCityPolska" site with great objects. But now I see speak about French and Russia. My mind - only English - may Jeronij think another? 

[Tyberius06]

Here is my problem. THEY LEFT. If you can not comminicate with someone because he/she is not responding, you can't ask permission. However if someone declares rights then he/she has responsibility as well.
If a site goes down and you have a file but the original creator wouldn't be so kind to attache a readme with his/her contact than i don't belive in his/her rights. If you can't get any response it's the same. If later the creator doesn't like that he can complain and actions can be made to remove the content. Otherwise probably he/she won't care about the contents sharing because not active anymore.

And it's a little off, but there should be a rule for uploading a content With readme and at least one ingame picture and reasonable folder structure. The last 2 years i've spent godknows how many hours organising my plugin and collection folder aswell because the most of the creators uncapable of this or lasy. Ill Tonkso he has more than 200 creations (amazing things) without readmes or attached pictures. And i wouldn't think that only put picture and readme onto the download site is enough. The "put everything into your plugin folder" was or could be enough 10 years ago but nowadays it's unmanagable.

[mgb204]

Whilst I understand creators rights, even where permission is explicitly not allowed for modification/redistribution, that doesn't make that enforceable. What has made it enforcible, much like the context of this discussion is the community guardians. If you try to usurp these rules, you will have action swiftly taken against you if found out.

But here's an interesting ethical question. How many of you have re-distributed a file unofficially to another user. Normally after a request by PM? How many would be prepared to state here categorically, "I broke the rules". We all do it, it would be nice if we could be honest and open about it. There is a huge difference between blatant and harmful violations and trying to be nice.

This is the reality here, if we want to follow the rules, at the expense of progress, that may be harming us. Perhaps it's time to revisit the rules, evolve them to better fit with the times. Sure, that may mean that some of the things that were previously not acceptable are allowed. It might even mean ignoring the wants of past/current creators.

Honestly, what on earth does anyone think uploading a file to a public exchange is for? Surely by that very action, you've made a conscious decision to give your work away for free. Whilst you may have placed restrictions upon how that content may be distributed, even written an EULA or equivalent. One which will almost certainly be laughably unenforcible in any court. The whole system has always rested with the community doing what's right by that content, not some threat of legal action.

I think the reasons for people not wanting redistribution of their works is for a number of key factors:

• Desire to get a high download count. If people are distributing works non-officially, those numbers won't look so good.
• Fear of others passing your works off as theirs. With care, there is no reason this would start to happen.
• Lack of control. I.e., you update a mod, but if it's being distributed elsewhere, you can't ensure users get the latest version. Along with the potential user support headaches that may bring.

But if you've moved on, most of those problems cease to be an issue. Since the action of uploading it in the first place was to share the content. If we need to circumvent some rule to keep that content alive, then so be it. I'm not spitting in the face of creators, if you think about it, I want their creations to live on. Why not re-distribute lost files which you can no longer download? If you know the right people, they'll always pass it on. Wouldn't it be nicer if everyone had the same chances to use great content that is otherwise unavailable to them? I think if we could ask the creators, they'd almost all want to keep their content alive for people to enjoy. The fact is we can't, but we've been letting this fact rule over things for too long and it's harming us as a result. More and more content is being lost over time, leading to a group of have's and have nots.

When this very same issue was considered in respect of Gobias' files, the decision was made to do what was best for the community. If Gobias doesn't like that decision, he still has the right to alter it. We should start to seriously consider taking the same approach for other lost content. It's not lost, it's just not on the exchanges. Who knows, one day perhaps no one with it on their hard drives will be around to do something about it either?

We must not violate the rights BATers

Why not, what makes them so special? P.s. I'm a batter myself. What are we violating exactly? Who would we be harming? This viewpoint is alien to me, because for it to be valid, we must actually do something that is negative for the creator. Keeping their works available, making it better or more accessible, that's not harm, that's protectionism. If we all bury our heads in the sand waffling about rights, we'll loose perspective here.

As a creator, do you know what makes me happy? What makes my creations worth all the countless hours of toil? How on earth I can spend hours tuning something from a thing for my game, to an acceptable release-quality product? It's my ego, pure and simple. The more people who download my work, the more people who I see using my work, the more motivated I am to keep at it. I want to hear people enjoy my content, in fact I'd say I need to hear it sometimes. I want people to like and enjoy what I do, I need that to feel like it's worth doing. Because for sure it doesn't pay me to release my stuff. It's not going to get me a job or improve my career prospects. Not to mention, all that time I spend making my content available for others, if I didn't bother, I'd be much further along with making the cities I really want to make than I am. The only value my work has, is in feeling like I accomplished something that others enjoy using. Perhaps there is one other though, I feel part of something bigger, a community, it's nice to feel worthwhile sometimes. How can you violate any of that or me personally by trying to keep it going?

Sometimes in life, we need to look past the actual words a person uses, to realise what their actual intent was meant to be. So maybe a creator did say once "you can not re-distribute this file". But if you look at why they might have written that, I think we can find a compromise between the words used and their actual intentions. For sure, I'm not going to advocate taking the work of current or active creators and doing whatever we like. But in the case of inactive creators, we know their intent was always for people to be able to use their content. And if we fail to see their intent, we're not doing right by them either. So long as we continue to be respectful to their intent, we won't be disrespecting their words, even if at a glance it may seem that way.

[Silur]

A lot of words.
BAT authors sometimes ask about references, but sometimes not.
Someone has left our world - we remember about them. I think there should always be a link or ReadeMe file, may be Polska, Spanish, Russian or South Korean ... 
I think, SC Devotion is a site where we can see strong objects about SC4. We must go with rules of SC4 Devotion. 

[kbieniu7]

Eh, seems that in my yesterday's post I forget one important point. Writing lately...

Me personally, I'm an ethusiasts of OpenSource and I believe the majority of other creators will do no problems with this topic, but we need to be aware, that many users actually HAD declared "no reuploading without notyfing the author" or similiar. And that's an dead-end for such file, without asking.

...However, in our (relatively small) community it was mostly about reposting the files at different websites, as we treated our uploads as a credit to a particular exchange. So, as long as reuploading by somebody else was done within SimCityPolska, author was given appropriate credit and the files were not previously removed by the author on purpose, it was considered as fully acceptable (sometimes the exclusion for SCP was given in license). We even did it, when we had run into a technical failure and our download section needed to be refilled with files.

So, if the author didn't state clearly,  that he does not allow any form of reuploading / attaching to other content as a modification, I rather find it fair, to republish missing (or for other reasonable purpose) content at the same website as originally chosen.

[tigerbuilder]

MGB, that is a very well written post, sir. I agree % 100 with all of your points.

[Akallan]

mgb204 said everything, there is nothing to add, I think. It would be good for the community that certain rules be updated.

[FrankU]

I agree with mgb204.
Now there is the task to find a suitable way of dealing with content that is not on the exchanges anymore. We have content that was distributed through personal websites that have gone, like many Japanese. What can we do with these files? Should we have someone like Catty who makes catalogues of other people's files and puts them on her own exchange?

It would be nice to have a separate exchange with "considered lost but found in a dark corner of my HD" files. But who is going to moderate this exchange?
A separate section on the STEX maybe? Like the SimPeg section?

I agree with mgb204: the only reason why I put my files on the LEX and the STEX is that I want you all to use them too. What can be more disappointing then seeing that nobody downloads my stuff? So please download it and use it. And as a testament for the day that I have lost contact with these sites I state here:

When I have disappeared from STEX and LEX (by disinterest, by heavy RL, by death) all my files may be reditributed, abused, copied, stolen or thrown away as long as they are not used for any kind of commercial activity. I will never allow anyone to make money out of my free gifts. That's it.

Frank

[catty]

I agree with mgb204.
Now there is the task to find a suitable way of dealing with content that is not on the exchanges anymore. We have content that was distributed through personal websites that have gone, like many Japanese. What can we do with these files? Should we have someone like Catty who makes catalogues of other people's files and puts them on her own exchange?....

I did it for a few of the SimPeg files that for whatever reason didn't make it on to the STEX, and obviously I've got Krio and Paeng's as per agreements with them, but I can't say I'm keen on expanding the CBEX to include any more files (Unless its a CB user who wants to add files to their exchange briefcases).

CB was set up as I needed a location for the indexes I was creating and I'm happy if someone comes up with a cross-site solution which can be run on a joomla site to provide site space for it, it doesn't even need to be complicated, it can be as simple as using dropbox as storage and something like my picture catalogue here (eighteen thousand pictures)

https://city-builders.info/catalog

But with the URL field filled in ... I should point out I've had people complaining that the download doesn't work when they click on one of the pictures, and yes I do have a lot of the URLs already but could never work out how to merge the pictures and indexes together.

EDIT: Every picture can have a Title, Tags, URL and Description



Having said all of the above my own feelings on the matter is missing files should be uploaded to the sites that make reference to them in other words if there is a SC4 plugin on the STEX and its got a dependency that was on a Japanese site and that site is gone along with the file then the dependency should be held on the STEX and not another 3rd party site or if a creator has uploaded files (or only posted at SC4D) to the LEX but not the STEX then their files should only be on the LEX.

-catty

[Haljackey]

Just a head's up that I have started a similar discussion on Simtropolis around this topic. Find it here:
http://community.simtropolis.com/forums/topic/73623-sharing-plugins-folders-discussion/

Thanks to @Akallan for linking to this discussion from there as well!

[Maxim Vm]

Hi guys,

I recently started installing mods for Simcity 4. Here are my 2 cents:

The Mac-part: I'm surprised you guys recommend to extract the exe with File Juicer, while there are alternatives like Winebottler to just directly run the installer on Mac. I haven't found a single Simcity 4 mod that didn't install properly on my mac, they even install the readme's in the right place, but it takes a crapload of free time.

Beside the .exe issue for Mac: I was looking for diversity in growable buildings. I didn't really care what buildings they were, as long as I had way more diversity. But to do this, I had to download dozens of packs. There was no "growable diversity pack", there were small packs like divided by type (r/c/i), density and wealth. Several users had small packs like "Low wealth small homes vol #3", "High wealth medium-rises vol #15", ...


Basically, I'm the noob asking for bigger packs  Some "mega growable packs" by certain users who have loads of content. If we could get these packs from a couple of users like mattb, simgoober, etc. then this would solve a LOT for beginning SC modders.