T-RAM

[noahclem]

Oh, and incidentally: about bloody time that NWM intersections are done for GLR-in-Ave. I've had many, many situations where I couldn't use NWM because there was GLR-in-ave in the way.

We really need to work more on cross-linking components...

Hehe, I agree! If we can get these in place then the remaining hassle will just be better interfacing with RHW (some options now with FLUPs or converting to Avenue+light rail) and bridges.

Speaking of bridges, I've heard conflicting reports on whether or not a TIA bridge is possible. TIA is avenue based so a DBE type solution isn't an option*. Can anybody clarify the situation for me?

*if someone made a "1/2 TIA" OWR-based piece to plop over OWR bridges made with DBE that might be a workaround.
EDIT: or road-based

[noahclem]

Sorry to double-post but I'm responding to an answer to my last question in a different thread but wanted to keep things on topic.

Tarkus in NAM Development:

Creating a single-network starter piece that has both transit types pathed on it.  This has theoretically worked with bridges, as demonstrated by xannepan's Tram-in-Road bridges, and the technique also has precedent with the Rail-based DDRHW-4.  It's still a bit of an unknown, however, especially on the Tram-in-Avenue side.  (The T-RAM design specifications forbid splitting Tram-in-Avenue setups in half, due to the liability of people trying to use them as fake Tram-in-OWR pieces.)  As it would likely have to be El-Rail based due to the way the game handles the path files (this is how xannepan's bridges were set up), this could cause some complications as well, particularly with any sort of T-intersection.

If 1/2 TIA pieces were created specifically with models for bridge pieces would that avoid the problem of people trying to use them as fake Tram-in-OWR pieces? And is that really a big problem anyway, besides the likelihood that people would start asking for more and more pieces to actually make fake TIOWR viable?

Given the dubious potential of avenue-based TIA bridges something DBE-based seems most plausible to me (Choco seemed pretty sure they weren't possible but I've heard conflicting reports since then).

Thoughts? Corrections? Interest? Ideas?

[Tarkus]

Theoretically, the DBE route would still work . . . the bridges would have to be puzzle-based, however, though this would get around the issue of having to split the TIA, as we could force a dual-tile setup through the puzzle piece.

-Alex

[noahclem]

Interesting.... Do I understand correctly that you're suggesting using twin-DBE-induced-0-slope-el-rails later covered with dual tile TIA bridge puzzle pieces? If so who is the best one to start nudging the other Alex (xannepan) or perhaps Matt (three stooges) or another T-RAM enthusiast or NAM expert in that direction? 

EDIT: you're not your 

[strucka]

Hi there! Is there any progress on the NWM interaction with the Tram-in-road/-on-road/-in-avenue? Because that really is needed. I hope we'll get some sooner or later. Great job so far of course!

[noahclem]

Hi and thank you! I don't have anything new to report yet. I've been pretty distracted trying to put on a good show with my MD's OSITM and am still working with non-original textures. I do think I'll start with the 2-tile network TIA intersections pretty shortly though--Avenue TuLEP and RD-6 (formerly known as MAVE-6) "+" & "T" first. Then probably TIAxAVE-6 and after that I don't know.

In any case, whatever ends up being created for these won't be available until the next release cycle and I have no idea when that will be.

Since you've been so polite and encouraging are there any pieces you'd particularly like to see?

[z]

Oh, and incidentally: about bloody time that NWM intersections are done for GLR-in-Ave. I've had many, many situations where I couldn't use NWM because there was GLR-in-ave in the way.

We really need to work more on cross-linking components...

I'm totally in agreement with you here.  In the mean time, for the GLR-in-Avenue case, you can use a pair of the RTMT GLR Transitions to turn these into regular avenues for the purposes of crossing an NWM road.

[Tarkus]

A little information from Chrisim regarding the textures:

In a public forum, somebody asked for original tram-avenue textures. There are no originals anymore. We always extracted similar textures from the NAM and modified them.

Oh, and incidentally: about bloody time that NWM intersections are done for GLR-in-Ave. I've had many, many situations where I couldn't use NWM because there was GLR-in-ave in the way.

We really need to work more on cross-linking components...

I'm totally in agreement with you here. 

I'd third that.  But of course, the main reason it hasn't been done thus far is that there's just so many things to crosslink:

• 13 NWM networks (expanding quite a bit when elevated and new asymmetrical forms are added in future releases)
  
• 11 RHW networks (which will triple upon the next release, and likely increase even more later on)
• CAN-AM
• HSR and GHSR
• 8 SAM Sets (likely to expand to as many as 16)
• 4 types of GLR
• FLUPs (Road and Tram) and URail
• Tram-in-AVE, Tram-in-Road, Tram-on-Road, Tram-on-Street (three of which will probably have elevated versions at some point)
• ElRail-over-Road Dual-Network
• High El-Rail and Monorail
• STR and TTR, with about 4-5 other RAM networks currently planned.
• NAM Road, OWR, and Avenue Viaducts
• Edit: NAM PedMalls and Pedestrian Overcrossings

At the present setup, that adds up to 54 (Edit: I forgot a couple . . . let's just say 50+) network or network-like items with which to crosslink, likely to approach 100 if all currently planned new network and network-like items come to fruition.  Some of them do already have crosslink capability, but others are severely lacking.

Then you also have fractional angle stuff beyond that, which is also lacking in crosslinks.

-Alex

[blakerussell]

• 8 SAM Sets (likely to expand to as many as 16)

Will this expansion possibly include a way to nicely transition between styles?

• NAM Road, OWR, and Avenue Viaducts

What exactly is this going to look like? sounds exciting!

[noahclem]

I'm totally in agreement with you here.  In the mean time, for the GLR-in-Avenue case, you can use a pair of the RTMT GLR Transitions to turn these into regular avenues for the purposes of crossing an NWM road.

I certainly get plenty of mileage out of those! Does the RTMT plan to make any more "FlUP-to-subway" transitions? Simple road-FlUP to subway and TIA FlUP to subway would be great!

A little information from Chrisim regarding the textures:

In a public forum, somebody asked for original tram-avenue textures. There are no originals anymore. We always extracted similar textures from the NAM and modified them.

Oh, and incidentally: about bloody time that NWM intersections are done for GLR-in-Ave. I've had many, many situations where I couldn't use NWM because there was GLR-in-ave in the way.

We really need to work more on cross-linking components...

I'm totally in agreement with you here. 

I'd third that.  But of course, the main reason it hasn't been done thus far is that there's just so many things to crosslink:

• 13 NWM networks (expanding quite a bit when elevated and new asymmetrical forms are added in future releases)
  
• 11 RHW networks (which will triple upon the next release, and likely increase even more later on)
• CAN-AM
• HSR and GHSR
• 8 SAM Sets (likely to expand to as many as 16)
• 4 types of GLR
• FLUPs (Road and Tram) and URail
• Tram-in-AVE, Tram-in-Road, Tram-on-Road, Tram-on-Street (three of which will probably have elevated versions at some point)
• ElRail-over-Road Dual-Network
• High El-Rail and Monorail
• STR and TTR, with about 4-5 other RAM networks currently planned.
• NAM Road, OWR, and Avenue Viaducts
• Edit: NAM PedMalls and Pedestrian Overcrossings

At the present setup, that adds up to 54 (Edit: I forgot a couple . . . let's just say 50+) network or network-like items with which to crosslink, likely to approach 100 if all currently planned new network and network-like items come to fruition.  Some of them do already have crosslink capability, but others are severely lacking.

Then you also have fractional angle stuff beyond that, which is also lacking in crosslinks.

-Alex

Thanks for the heads up on the textures Alex.

That's certainly a massive list! Hopefully crosslinking expands a bit as the network options expand so we're not left with an even more daunting task down the road. To the extent I'm able I'm happy to contribute to this little corner of the challenge.

• 8 SAM Sets (likely to expand to as many as 16)

Will this expansion possibly include a way to nicely transition between styles?

• NAM Road, OWR, and Avenue Viaducts

What exactly is this going to look like? sounds exciting!

I would imagine SAM transitions will work the same as they do now, requiring a quick conversion to road or starter pieces pointed away from each other, unless someone wants to go to a lot of effort to change it. The viaducts you're asking about already exist.

[Tarkus]

• 8 SAM Sets (likely to expand to as many as 16)

Will this expansion possibly include a way to nicely transition between styles?

To further what noahclem said, I'd consider it extremely unlikely.  The SAM specifications never involved transitions between different street types mainly due to the complexity of (and general lack of functionality gained by) that endeavor, and it's complicated by the fact that the mod was designed such that "replacement mods" could be made.  At present, one would need to make 36 transitions, and if we go to 16, we're looking at about 100 more beyond that.  At most, you'd see a simple override put into place to convert the workarounds noahclem mentioned into simple orthogonals of the requisite sets.  And intersections between sets are a total non-starter.

That's certainly a massive list! Hopefully crosslinking expands a bit as the network options expand so we're not left with an even more daunting task down the road. To the extent I'm able I'm happy to contribute to this little corner of the challenge.

Fortunately, a few items already are decently crosslinked, but there's certain "clusters" of items that aren't crosslinked well with one another, or are only partially so.  The NAM Elevated Viaducts are probably in the best shape in terms of crosslinkage . . . to my knowledge, the only things not crosslinked there are the RAM and the NWM.  HSRP and SAM are probably in the worst shape, mainly as they haven't really been updated in about 4 years, and the RAM, NWM, and tons of Tram-in-Network setups have come about since then, and the RHW was expanded massively.

The T-RAM stuff isn't particularly well-crosslinked with any of the "Highway Division" components (e.g. the RHW and NWM).  I am planning to knock out the ERHW/T-RAM crosslinks as soon as I can figure out where to put them in the new RHW IID scheme, and with your efforts, the T-RAM side will be among the better crosslinked.

-Alex

[z]

Does the RTMT plan to make any more "FlUP-to-subway" transitions? Simple road-FlUP to subway and TIA FlUP to subway would be great!

Yes; the next release of RTMT will contain FLUP-enabled versions of all the current road top stations, as well as standard and FLUP-enabled versions of stations for all of the NWM types.  We're well into this project, but it's still going to be a while before it's ready for release.

[noahclem]

...and with your efforts, the T-RAM side will be among the better crosslinked.

And try I will! Now that I don't need to wait for better textures I can proceed with my work--and since I've been a bit outspoken in this thread I'll hold my next reply until there's a pretty picture to show with it 

Does the RTMT plan to make any more "FlUP-to-subway" transitions? Simple road-FlUP to subway and TIA FlUP to subway would be great!

Yes; the next release of RTMT will contain FLUP-enabled versions of all the current road top stations, as well as standard and FLUP-enabled versions of stations for all of the NWM types.  We're well into this project, but it's still going to be a while before it's ready for release.

Sounds great    And is that an implication that there will be FLUP-under-NWM pieces? TE'd lots would be just about as good if that's the case. What I meant to ask though is if there will be FLUP entrance-to-subway pieces, ie a TEd lot that looks like a road FLUP entrance but converts traffic from car to subway.

[Dexter]

Maybe some transitions to NMAVE-4 would be an idea:


The MAVE-6 and NMAVE crossings would probably be the most useful IMO, especially after looking through some CJs:

[io_bg]

I'd love to use such pieces, right now we've to use so many transitions in order to use tram-in-road/avenue and NWM networks in one city tile.

[SeanSC4]

I'd love to see some NWM/T-Ram cross-functionality. Trying to use both in the same city tile is problematic to say the least presently.

[noahclem]

Awesome work Dexter 

The NMAVE0-4 (or is it NRD-4 now?) transitions with TOR are a great option--and who knew they weren't the same width?

I think you're right that RD-4 and RD-6 intersections are the most useful. Personally, I don't mind the transition to avenue right before the TIA intersection since it offers a nice little pedestrian island, but the actual intersection option will be great o have.

I think the roads and rails look spot-on but it'd be nice to tidy up those sidewalks a bit.

With three windows of reader and six of GIMP open right now there's a reasonable chance I'll have something to post later--but I'd like to know if there's anything else you're working on ATM so we don't end up doing the same thing. Next up for me would be AVE-4 TLA intersections and AVE-6 TLA intersections. T-intersections of the RD-4 & RD-6 you've made would be nice too.

[choco]

Given the dubious potential of avenue-based TIA bridges something DBE-based seems most plausible to me (Choco seemed pretty sure they weren't possible but I've heard conflicting reports since then).

Thoughts? Corrections? Interest? Ideas?

thought maybe i could clear this up a bit....

at one point, i made a TIA bridge to compare the results to the network congestion issue on the Tsing Ma.  unlike maxis highway (or ground highway), avenue would not pass any rail traffic (light or heavy) at all....if this has been resolved, it may still suffer network congestion.  so i never looked into it much after that...

insofar as being DBE based, i have no idea or clue as to the viability there.  DBE came around when RL started hitting me pretty hard.

[Dexter]

Here are the T versions of the textures I made earlier:



Obviously there's a lot more work involved that just textures, but at least it's a start.

EDIT: Quickly did some for a MIS piece.

@noahclem:  I probably won't do any more for now, so I look forward to what you come up with 



Best,
-Matt

[Tarkus]

Matt and Noah, you guys are officially awesome.   These textures will make great additions to the NWM/T-RAM crosslinkage and really improve the functionality of both components.

And choco, long time, no see, my friend!

-Alex