New Additions to RTMT

[cogeo]

This is my attempt:



It's the V3 icons but modified as I had proposed earlier. This is for the Bus+Sub+GLR station for GLR-in-Avenue puzzle pieces. For the overlay symbols I used London's logos (for GLR I used the DLR's colours, as those for the Overground, ie blue+orange would look very similar to that for the Underground). This is by far the most complicated network type/station combination as the network texture had to be scaled-down a lot (as it's a double-width network) and there are those tracks in the middle too. Every other network type should be more easily done and look better. For the roads, I would use the double yellow line (even if the MT signs are european) because it's easier to distinguish from oneway roads. The transit-type symbols can be replaced by more generic ones, of course.

Looks like a "RTMT Buttons Contest" lol! 

[Andreas]

I like the icon with the logos - and I wonder how one with German logos would look like.

[FrankU]

Orion79,
No, the excitement is just growing by your posts!

But, I must say, your emptier icons are better, in my opinion. I think the added stuff only makes them harder to read. In my opinion icons should be as clear as possible. Your first ones are definitely.

Cogeo,
Your logo is colorfull, which is nice, but I think it is easier to recognize a letter than a color. So I prefer logos with letters that show the transportation type. Otherwise I always have to look up wether blue was subway, bus or GLR. You should, maybe, know that I am way over fourty already and I tend to forget simple things...

And icons with German are nice too. They have colors and letters!
I think that would be perfect.

Thank you for all your hard work.

[0rion79]

I still preferi version n°5, but I bend to the community's decision. Majority wins!

[z]

This is my attempt:



It's the V3 icons but modified as I had proposed earlier. This is for the Bus+Sub+GLR station for GLR-in-Avenue puzzle pieces. For the overlay symbols I used London's logos (for GLR I used the DLR's colours, as those for the Overground, ie blue+orange would look very similar to that for the Underground). This is by far the most complicated network type/station combination as the network texture had to be scaled-down a lot (as it's a double-width network) and there are those tracks in the middle too. Every other network type should be more easily done and look better. For the roads, I would use the double yellow line (even if the MT signs are european) because it's easier to distinguish from oneway roads. The transit-type symbols can be replaced by more generic ones, of course.

I like the way you've overlayed the colored symbols on top of the road, but for us world-ignorant Americans, those symbols really don't mean much.  I know that for me, they'd be harder to interpret than my original letter proposal (which I think has definitely been superseded by Orion's work).  But you mention "more generic" symbols; what did you have in mind?  If there were symbols that could easily be identified as a bus (or at least part of one), a subway train, and a tram, that would be ideal.

I agree with your suggestion about the double yellow line for the roads; it would add one more measure of clarity to the icons.

[cogeo]

Here is another attempt:



There are two types of overlays, white and colour. The colours comply to the traffic map, ie blue for bus, yellow for subway/GLR (rail for ebina's set would be orange). The last two rows have beveled overlays, while the first two are flat.

The quality of the graphics can be improved further, eg the blue for the bus could be lighter, or the windscreen(s) could be not transparent, but of a colour of proper contrast to that of the vehicle(s). So this isn't it's final form, just wanted to show the idea.

[zakuten]

I might suggest encasing the subway icon in a circle to show the tunnel?

[z]

Here is another attempt:

Much clearer!    I think the colored one with the beveled overlay is best.  I like the transparent windscreen, but I think a lighter color of blue would be better for the bus, as you can see the details more clearly that way.  Also, I would suggest making the tram white (the white looks good, and that won't conflict with any other network colors); that's one way to keep it from ever being confused with the subway.  But unlike zakuten, I don't think a subway tunnel is necessary; I think things would get crowded if you tried that.

What about streets and roads?  I think the way that Orion had the road off to the side and the icons in the one empty space worked very well; I also like the way that allows BUS and/or SUB to be shown on the street or road.

So these look very nice, and it's really great to have multiple ideas from which to choose.

[zakuten]

That's true, an always-white tram would set it apart too

[0rion79]

Coego, I appreciate a lot your efforts and I don't want to be aggressive nor competitive in expressing my opinion.
But also, please, understand that I have made my choices even as consequence of my degree in psychology of job and organization, that also inclueds notions about the easy of use of graphical tools. It is not a matter of tastes, but more a matter of method.

I think that the icons that you have created are great, but don't fit into the game for several reasons.

First of all, they may result confusing for color-blind people, and our additions should not be a limit for players that have all the rights to use RTMT and that have this kind of problems.

Also, I can recognize bus from subway, but it is not so immediate and I think that icons should leave the player free to think about the game, and nothing else.

Last but not least, they are too different from any other kind of icons in the game, so they don't merge very well with the game.

All SC4 icons are a snapshot of the "real" in-game building but this method is not good enough for RTMT icons, since roads, OWR and avenues look all too similar.
My approach instead is an attempt to grant "compatibility" with the rest of the game icons, since I have used more or less the same kind of textures and colors from the original game to produce icons that are quite similar to the real stops, but from a perpendicular view, that helps to quickly recognize the kind of used road, that was the main problem in RTMT 3.5.
I think that I have achieved it with easy-to-get details, as the grass or rail for avenues and avenues+GLR, or arrows for OWR and, at the same time, they look similar enough to the other icons.

For this reasons, I believe that the best option is to choose among the version with or without the stops on the right side of my set and, if all of you agree, to add Coego's icons as alternative in the same RTMT page. After all, with ILive's reader, changing icons is easy as stealing a candy from a baby

Hope that you won't get mad at me, but I write so because I think that this is the best solution for everybody, not because I want to defend something that I've done, just because it is mine.
They are just icons for a game, afer all

[catty]

I have to say from the point of view of just a user of RTMT and who's vision is less than perfect and this is meant with no disrespect to cogeo ideas that I do prefer Orion79 icons as I can glance at Orion79 icons and tell what they are meant to be representing, but cogeo icons I am having to squint at, perhaps they would be easier to identify in the game menu

[cogeo]

Orion,

I really don't feel that your comments are aggressive or competitive, and of course in no case I would ever get... mad at these!

My idea was presented in detail in my previous posts. The goal was distinctiveness and clarity, while keeping the buttons as simple and uncluttered as possible. In summary, it was use the network texture as the background, and put some simple and easy to recognise overlay symbols, denoting the transit types served by the stations. I think the network texture is much more immediately recognised than ingame screenshots, which may not really be as clear and unambigous as the full network textures. Symbols should be immediately recognisable too, esp if they depict clearly the transit type; I think more easily and immediately than letters or letter codes (as a psychologist you certainly know the different capabilities of the left and right hemispheres of the brain). I think Maxis has done a good job here, I mean the hover mini queries of different buildings. For example, if you hover a bus stop you will see five bus icons, and this makes it easy to identify the transit type, without having to read the description.

My goal was to make symbols easily/immediately recognisable by everyone, I mean the shape alone should be enough to identify the symbols. Actually, if you read my previous posts, you will see that I had originally proposed pale white symbols. I put the colour ones as a last minute addition, to help improve distinctiveness (colour-blind people should be able to identify them by the shape anyway).

The reason for choosing a non-standard icon frame was also described in my previous posts. It has the advantage of easily distinguishing the icons of the package from the others at a glance (even at some loss of uniformity). It's easy to roll you mouse and tell immediately if you are within or out of the RTMT area; given that the pack contains quite many icons, this is important, as it makes it easy to identify where the RTMT area in the menu starts or ends.

So I would like to know if you disagree with the above in principle. I think we both agree that full textures and symbols are more easily recognisable that screenshots.

The quality of the implementation of these is another matter though. And as said in my previous post, these are not the final ones and could be improved - just wanted to show the idea.

The network texture is very recognisable, as is I think. And remember, this is the most complicated station type, with the overlays obscuring most of it. All others will be much less cluttered.

As for the symbols, there are two limitations that make things harder:
- Limited space and resolution (the overlays are only 12 pixels wide, and still obscure most of the background).
- Different backgrounds, with varying luminance.

As a solution, possible improvements could be:
- Make windscreens not transparent, but instead use a colour of reasonable contrast to that of the vehicles'. This would cause the windscreen not to interfere with the background(s).
- The bump effect rather causes problems (sorry Steve), so the flat version would rather be preferable, or instead its strength/depth could be greatly reduced.
- If you notice carefully you will see that the bus symbol has wheels, and the subway/tram rails. In many cases these are hardly visible. They could be dilated/thickened a little. To better "judge" these icons focus mostly on the 2nd and 3rd columns (normal and selected states respectively).
- The problem of the varying background can be solved or at least eased by applying a halo or drop shadow effect around the symbols. There is space for a 1-1.5 pixel wide effect.
- The problem with the bus symbol in the above pics is superimposing a dark symbol on a dark background. But the colour can be lightened a lot, mostly resembling that of the ingame bus automata, rather than the colour of the bus paths (it would still be "blue"). So after this adjustment all overlays would be "light"; combining this with a dark halo, I think will make them all easily distinguishable.
- The the pantograph is quite visible I think, but it could maybe be thickened/dilated by say, "half" a pixel or so.

These are my proposals. I don't know how these will be, but I really think they will look better. I think we should ask the opinion of an experienced graphics designer (only callagrafx comes to mind).

On the other hand, I'm not sure if the icons in your pic No 5 are easily recognised as a subway and a busstop. i can recognise the busstop (it's that old TfL busstop), but this is mostly because of its colour (what about colour-blind people here?) and beacuse I know that model well. But can you really say the same about other players too? To most of them these would rather look like "blobs" I'm afraid, rather than easily recognisable shapes. And this is almost impossible to improve too, because of the limited space you correctly mentioned. The whole thing here is "saved" by the markings, but this isn't as "immediate" as symbols I think, as it requires "reading" and "decoding". And I don't see a Bus+Sub+GLR icon either.

This is just my opinion, and I really think it would be a better solution too (and I don't either try to defend something I have done, errr.. started but not yet finished  ). Actually I really appreciate your interest in this pack! 

[Andreas]

I think the newest version with the vehicle symbols looks great. The symbols should be easy enough to recognize if the various vehicles have different colors (and yes, the blue of the bus should be lighter). I'm not sure about color-blind users, but then again, there are the labels as well which should provide enough help for those who have problems to differenciate between red, green or other colors. Personally, I prefer the standard Maxis frames around the icons, but maybe, you could use a colored frame rather than the standard dark grey or black one (Pegasus was among the first who did this, and it looked really nice; see pic below for reference). This way, the various lots for road, oneway road, avenue etc. could be spotted easily as well. I must admit that the background with the various network textures is rather hard to decipher; maybe you shouldn't use anti-aliasing for the road markings and such.

[zakuten]

Perhaps a poll might be best...?

[0rion79]

@ Coego,

the same fact that I have to look carefully to "find" wheels in your icons marks them as difficult to distinguish.

About my "n°5" (Chanell parfume! hahah ), the stops are merely a "side dish", since the writings on the road, that are similar to the ones that can be found in the game, will clearly mark the kind of stop used on different roads.
Stops are in just because Z asked for something that would recall the original buildings in the game, but I expect the player to see at the road, read "bus" "sub" or "sub & bus"  ( and see the rail or the grass for avenues )and quickly make his/her choice.

For the rest, they are different viewpoints, but as I've already written, I did my icons following scientific criterias that I've learend at univeristy and don't want - nor have time - to explain all reasons that are behind books made from hundreds of pages.

Then it is up to the community.

PS: @Tage, remember to send me the Photoshop mask...

[z]

Perhaps a poll might be best...?

Maybe eventually, but right now things are still developing, so I'd like to see where they end up first.

Personally, I think both styles are excellent, and I would be happy using either one.  I think it's also important to remember that the DAMN poll showed the vast majority of people will be using DAMN menus, which will be in one of the earlier releases, and these menus always have a description line right next to the icon.  So the actual icon content is a lot less crucial in this case.

My goal was to make symbols easily/immediately recognisable by everyone, I mean the shape alone should be enough to identify the symbols. Actually, if you read my previous posts, you will see that I had originally proposed pale white symbols. I put the colour ones as a last minute addition, to help improve distinctiveness (colour-blind people should be able to identify them by the shape anyway).

Also, the brightness of the colors is different enough that I would think they would show up as different shades of gray even to completely color-blind people.

As a solution, possible improvements could be:
- Make windscreens not transparent, but instead use a colour of reasonable contrast to that of the vehicles'. This would cause the windscreen not to interfere with the background(s).

As I look closer at the windscreens, I see the problem, and I agree that making them non-transparent would be an improvement.  I would think that something that looks as close as possible to glass would be best.  Also, a little dash of color here and there on the icons might help to bring out the details somewhat more; I don't think it's necessary to have them completely monochrome.

- The bump effect rather causes problems (sorry Steve), so the flat version would rather be preferable, or instead its strength/depth could be greatly reduced.

I'll take your word for it, but for us non-graphics types, could you briefly explain why?  And I think even a small 3D effect would be better than a perfectly flat icon.

- If you notice carefully you will see that the bus symbol has wheels, and the subway/tram rails. In many cases these are hardly visible. They could be dilated/thickened a little. To better "judge" these icons focus mostly on the 2nd and 3rd columns (normal and selected states respectively).

Yes, right now these are very hard to differentiate.  Some improvement here would definitely be helpful.  Again, maybe color would help.

- The problem of the varying background can be solved or at least eased by applying a halo or drop shadow effect around the symbols. There is space for a 1-1.5 pixel wide effect.
- The problem with the bus symbol in the above pics is superimposing a dark symbol on a dark background. But the colour can be lightened a lot, mostly resembling that of the ingame bus automata, rather than the colour of the bus paths (it would still be "blue"). So after this adjustment all overlays would be "light"; combining this with a dark halo, I think will make them all easily distinguishable.

I think these would both be good improvements.

- The the pantograph is quite visible I think, but it could maybe be thickened/dilated by say, "half" a pixel or so.

I think the pantograph is perfect just the way it is - you can't miss it.  If it were any bigger, I think it would look a little strange.

And now I have a couple of suggestions.  Why not put the tram in the middle of the button (or as close to the middle as possible) so that it's over the tracks?  That makes it really obvious it's a tram.  And then on the left side, if it doesn't look too cluttered, you could put the letters "B G S" vertically, and spaced apart, for bus, GLR, and subway.  Just a thought...

My guess is that we will end up having a poll on this, and if there's not a very clear winner, I may just make this another installation option.  Other ideas are welcome, as always.

[0rion79]

Well, in the mean time, I have completed my set of icons.
This is the result. This time, it is a BMP image, without unwanted blurs.
Also, I have made even the icons that I didn't the last time and I've made 2 versions, one with the stops on the right side and one that is "simple".

I've followed the method of basing my icons on a matter of constants and variabiles, so that the eye will immediately get the differences and the player will be quickly be able to switch from one icon set to another, without thinking to what the icons mean.



Actually, if it is possible to create a setup file with all versions, maybe using a single file for icons only, the best solution is to add a "readme" file with samples from every set and allow the player to choose among...

- snapshots from the game
- coego's
- my set WITHOUT stops
- my set WITH stops on the right

So, everybody will be happy and we don't have to choose at all. The choice will be up to the single player that will download the file.

[b22rian]

They look great Orion !
and would be easy to use in the game..
I doubt they could be improved on any further..
thanks very much for all the work and effort you have put into this !

Brian

[catty]

They look great Orion !
and would be easy to use in the game..
I doubt they could be improved on any further..
thanks very much for all the work and effort you have put into this !

Brian

I'll second Brian, good job Orion79  

[z]

Well, in the mean time, I have completed my set of icons.

A few suggestions:

For the single-stop streets, I would move the label over to the side, just as for the double-stop streets.  Also, the color scheme here is somewhat different from the game's, where you have a somewhat darker street with a lighter stripe down the middle.  Also, I think this would make it easier to make out the boundary between the street and the sidewalk, which are almost the same color right now.

I agree with cogeo that for standard roads, a double yellow line divider works best.

A whole class of stations seems to be missing; I don't see the Ave/GLR stations with a GLR stop.  (I'm not sure what the last icon is supposed to be.)  I would suggest using the letters "GLR" in black overlaying the track, perhaps in a slightly smaller font, for these stations.  You need stations for GLR, GLR/Bus, GLR/Sub, and GLR/Bus/Sub.  Good luck!