Let us repair this fracture that tears our community apart.

[joerg]

Dear Communities of BOTH Simtropolis and Sim City 4 Devotion.  I understand that many things have gone wrong over the past few years, and because of that our amazing community has been fractured at its very core.  That core is the fans that make the content and bring that content to life in cities and on the pages of these great sites.  I see constant bickering amongst these communities over where content belongs and where credit should be given, and to be honest it sickens me with every glancing read.

I do not mean to deny that things have gone a rye and that people have been mistreated under false pretenses.  However, I refuse to accept the misconception that we as a community both Sim City Devotion and Simtropolis, as well as many countless other communities have such different agendas and strengths that we may not function as one again.

When I left this community two years ago I was still in high school and by many standards I lacked the maturity to understand that maturity and respect are both things that can only be gained over time.  I do not claim to have accomplished adding either of those virtues to my character, but I do know those traits can be found within all of us if we simply look past our differences and learn to once again respect each others talents and passions, which unsurprisingly many of us share.

I do not have a vast proposal to bring these communities back together, but I do wish to ask favors of each and every one of you.  First off please let us go back to accepting that this is merely a game in which all of us love, and that what we add to the game should be enjoyed by all and not the few that we see fit.  Next let us learn to respect each other, this should not be hard to ask of you, it just means when a flamer goes off on another member we defend them rather than sit back and let this abuse occur.  More over please do not join in on the complaints, it only tears us apart further and drives members like myself and many others away.  Finally I believe that both Simtropolis and Sim City 4 Devotion are amazing sites, and both have very different and yes similar things to bring to the community and both are essential to strengthening us as a whole.  However, me must learn to share and be a community as a whole.  Forget only uploading content to one site out of loyalty or worse, spite!  Doing this accomplishes nothing, and if there is one insult to be given in this thread it is this, If you are the type of person that refuses to share with others simply because you want the fame or the hype or you lack the maturity or understanding to communicate and aid in changing things for the better, then you may need to reassess your priorities.

All that said I would like to put forth this gesture of goodwill, I will likely begin working with BSC, members of Simtropolis, and members of SC4 Devotion, in an effort to create new bats and it is my hope that I can help bring a renaissance to this community and its many glorious projects.  In doing this I promise to release all of my content at both sites with no personal agenda, and it is my personal vendetta to help aid in the repair of that fracture that weakens us all.  Thank You –Joerg.

PS: if you kids don't learn to share and play nice I will remove my content and that is like 250,000 downloads so HA! --------------JK, I figured this post could use a good laugh.

[dedgren]

Thank you very much, joerg, for expressing sentiments that many of us share.  There would seem to be an extraordinary level of high emotion that the recent developments as to the future of Sim City have released, and some things have been said as a result that do not reflect well on our community.  It is clear that those emotions have also fed tensions between various fansites.

As hopefully everyone knows by this time, we have the following among our SC4D Rules [linkie].

• One final word for those who would discuss here in the forums the goings-on at other SC4 fansites: DON'T.  Other than the fact that this, too, is a waste of time and bandwidth, it is completely contrary to the community spirit we expect SC4D members to show.

I'm pretty sure that folks know we take that rule, as we do all our rules, very seriously.  I see joerg's sentiments about Simtropolis, as expressed in his post, as completely consistent with the rule, and almost certainly very timely said in light of the current state of affairs.  He asks why we all just can't accept our differences in the community and move forward in the spirit of the one thing everyone in the community has in common- the great enjoyment we experience when we play SC4.  While he speaks specifically of relations between members of ST and SC4D, what he says applies in a far larger sense to relations between the memberships of all the fansites in the community.

This post stands as the thoughts of one SC4D member.  It deserves careful reading.  While each of our members is entitled to take his or her own position on the issues joerg raises, I would hope that, in general, he has expressed what I would call the "common wisdom" here- respect everyone,  be courteous in your dealings with others, be willing act first in forgiving things, don't be petty.  Above all, he says let enjoyment of the game be put first.  Pretty hard to argue with that.

I don't really know what else needs to be said beyond what our friend has here.  On the other hand, I don't think it's fair that I should make a comment and have the last word when I'm sure others feel strongly about the matters raised.  So, I'll do two things on behalf of jeronij and the staff- I'll leave this thread open for comments for a day or two so that everyone who would care to has the opportunity make a positive and supportive contribution.  Second, I will carefully monitor the thread- anyone who leaves a comment that is in conflict with the particular rule I've quoted above can expect to hear from SC4D about that, and the communication will not be in the nature of, "Hi- how are you doing?"  I note that this thread is an opportunity we are providing for folks to speak on a topic not normally raised here- please do not consider it an invitation to start additional threads of this nature.

Finally, thanks again, joerg, for speaking up.


David

[Patriots1228]

i agree with joergg completely. I also started a thread at ST about the fighting, etc.

[callagrafx]

Forget only uploading content to one site out of loyalty or worse, spite!  Doing this accomplishes nothing, and if there is one insult to be given in this thread it is this, If you are the type of person that refuses to share with others simply because you want the fame or the hype or you lack the maturity or understanding to communicate and aid in changing things for the better, then you may need to reassess your priorities.

The majority of uploaders to the SC4D LEX only release their files here not through spite but because of a fervent wish to make this site and the exchange successful, constructive and a welcoming environment.  A number of BSC members made it their home after Jeroni welcomed us in, so Colyn and ReLiC developed the LEX as a vehicle for us to continue to share our work with the community.  The only difference between it and STEX is uploader rights are not granted to everyone, but anyone is free to apply to gain uploader status, if their work meets some basic criteria for quality.  This is less an attempt at exclusivity but more to protect the downloader from erroneous content that could prove detrimental to their game, at the same time protecting SC4D's integrity and hard earned reputation as a home for the serious player.  In the 6 months the LEX has been active, the membership has grown to nearly 7000 with over 360,000 downloads, which in itself stands as a testament to Jeroni and Colyn's vision. I am immensely proud of my membership of BSC and honoured to be entrusted with administering the LEX, helping people gain access when they need it.

To be perfectly blunt, the community has evolved and grown up and out of what it was.  Life moves in one direction and that is forward, what's past is past and it shall never again be what it was.  Nostalgia is one thing, but reality is another.  To think that the community can be what it once was is pure wishful thinking IMO.

[Ennedi]

English is not my own language, so I ask for some patience and understanding. It is very hard to me to write it.

I understand many members of SC4D (and also ST) are more qualified to express their opinion in such important matter. I'm an active member of this community from a short time. I'm sure my knowledge anout SC4 and it's community is little, but maybe just because of it I can look at this situation from bigger distance.

1.I don't know what were reasons of conflict between the SC4D creators and ST staff. Maybe they were very serious - but I don't need to know them. I rather would like to concentrate on playing SC4 and people who I meet here.
Digression: I must say I have absolutely nothing against ST. I registerd there about 2 years ago, but I didn't an active member. Why? Because I'm learned, and in my opinion my skills were too poor to show my work, or to do something useful to the others. Looking for good CJ's I found 3RR, read about SC4D and I am here.
However, I learned a lot in ST, I am grateful for it and if I will be able to do something for them (donation, showing some of my work) - I will do it with pleasure.

2. I like SC4D. The best thing (for me) is easy and close contact between masters and newbies. If someone is a newbie, he/she can learn a lot (of course if he/she wants).

3. Sometimes is better to farewell somebody. But it doesn't mean the former friend must become an enemy.
Maybe it will be better for community to have some sites with different profiles, but respecting one to another? - see point 2.

4. Someone could say SC4 is only a game. Some kind of sophisticated puzzles. No. It's a specific game (of course in the modified version).
You (talented BAT-ers, moderators, administrators of SC4 sites) are specific people. You teach others much more than playing SC4.:
- Competition without aggression; respect to the opponent. Look at "Best SC4 Picture Competition", you will see many examples.
- Helping to the others: examples not needed - there are a lot of them on every place of this site.
- Hearing and understanding completely different persons.
Who else teach such things? School? University? Boss at work place? Governments? TV? Think about it for a while and try to understand how important is what you do.
Do you like our civilisation as it is? I don't. What is needed? To teach people something else.

I understand some of you can feel tired, disheartened etc. - especially if you don't see enough appreciation (or at least hear simple "thank you"). It's normal. But good things come back. Always. Not at once, not from the same people. But if you do something good, it will come back.

What is the conclusion?
You do something very, very important for many people. So, try to protect it.
Let everybody has his own home and goes his own way, but don't think about past. Think about future, and meet in many places/sites in friendship.
You don't need to explain it to everybody. Your present work here in SC4D is the best explanation.

And at the end: A few days ago I have read something wise - "Remember, killing your enemy you kill somebody's friend"

[sEAhAwk fAn121]

cal: not to mean anything harmful but i think that some of that "prefectionist" BATs arnt what some people are looking for, i once found a great BAT that would fit my city prefectly and it wasnt prefect. When someone uploads an ok BAT to the STEX sometimes yes there are bashers, but sometimes theres that 1 good person that posts a comment that is helpful and the person that uploaded it gets better and better! in the LEX you cant do that because they filter out those BATs...

And yes this entire topic is a serious problem...
and to some people who think ST is dying
The site isnt kept up by BAT teams... when the teams leave the CJs (MDs) dont stop, the games dont die and people dont stop joining...

Cant we all just get along and be nice?

[metasmurf]

cal: not to mean anything harmful but i think that some of that "prefectionist" BATs arnt what some people are looking for, i once found a great BAT that would fit my city prefectly and it wasnt prefect. When someone uploads an ok BAT to the STEX sometimes yes there are bashers, but sometimes theres that 1 good person that posts a comment that is helpful and the person that uploaded it gets better and better! in the LEX you cant do that because they filter out those BATs...

I have to dissagree with this. I might have misunderstood this but anyone can start a bat thread here and get comments/suggestions on how to improve their work. Henceforth, as the batter improves his work, he might get permission to upload it. Why is this method good? Well, we don't get flooded with cr*p. When I download something from the LEX I know it will be modded proparly and look good ingame. Also, I think there's a high competence among batters around here. They're friendly, but at the same time they're not afraid to point out certain errors.

Just my 2 cents...

[dedgren]

Let's be a little careful here, folks- we're not addressing the relative merits of the LEX or the STEX in this thread- we're just talking about restoring a degree of calm to a community.  I think it's been established that the LEX and STEX are really two different things- we won't go anywhere here talking talking about apples and oranges.

@Ennedi- Great comment!  Thanks for sharing those thoughts with us.


David

[Filasimo]

well after being observant about this situation i will have to go by what Jplumbey expressed when i talked to him about this and i do agree its just a game but also it comes down to respect to others. i am catholic and what i was taught was that lovely golden rule.....treat others the way you want to be treated. respect one another the way you want to be respected.

[HabLeUrG]

"Among individuals, as among nations, respect for the rights of others is peace"

-Benito Juárez

also i agree what Filsimo says...

[Krio]

Do you realise that BSC is huge team and you're dissing all of them, like prepo or Bobbo who are silent workhorses who make excellent bats and are very helpful to other members? And those "ego guys" are also helpful. I wont say names, but they have been great help for me in my batting I have improved my work and I thank them. All BSC member gives constructive criticsm to me and also to other members, even for those who are dissing them in ST chat and in forums.

BSC improves the game very much by creating excellent custom content and mods but also eliminating the spam work away. I would say, that if you want to be "that batter", be in other sites but if you want to became "The Batter", start a theard at Devotion and listen use every resource what this site offers you. MDs are also better in Devotion than other sites. How many "coming soon" or "superhyperprocjects" have you seen here? None.

And BSC wins those competitions, because they are good in game too and not only in creating the content to it. But e.g Ennedi and me, have beaten BSC members in Picture Competiton.

My thousand euros (I sure hate that 2 cents thingy  )

edit: previous post has been deleted, so I edited mine.

EDIT:  I'm going to edit it, too, Bengt.  Not by removing it this time, but by editorializing a little bit.  Everyone here appreciates compliments- Bobbo and prepo are personal heroes of mine, too, way back from when I was just a consumer of custom content and nothing more.  The point is, though, that just because fansites are run differently, that's no reason not to get along.  We have 70 or so MDs here- a lot easier number to manage than the somewhere around 1,000 on ST.  We do things different here.  That doesn't make SC4D right and everyone else wrong- just different.  And, on another note, the day I became a member of BSC, nothing about me changed other than my avatar.  I'm still the same person pretty much everyone got along with when I was doing 3RR over at ST.  Even now, everyone beats me in the pic competition.  Bottom line, we're all way more the same than we are different.  -DE

[Masochist]

Yeah...my piece...

This is very personal to me.  I notice this rift every single day.  Someone makes a side comment about ST or SC4D (where the rift seems to be the largest), and I twitch a bit.  I mean, I don't mind that there are two or three or seventeen fan sites for SC4.  And I don't really care how those sites came to be (so long as they're there).  No, what really bothers me about it is when people put down entire an site because of conflicts they have with maybe 10 or so people on that site.  It happens all the time on both sites, and it's absolutely terrible...because as a member and supporter of both sites, I'm getting pelted with insults left and right 24/7 (hence why it's personal).  People mean to say "This person is this" or "That group isn't that," but what they end up saying is "SC4D is this" or "ST isn't that," and frankly, I'm tired of it.  Even beyond the rudeness towards the people these comments are actually aimed at, I think this stereotyping and overgeneralization of entire crowds is a large contributor to the problem at hand.  I really do.  And I (as well as countless others) are stuck in the middle having to take the grunt of the attacks from both sides.  I'm almost positive that I'm not the only one who's tired of dealing with it.

Or what's worse (and I can't even believe this is a problem, but it is) is when people will not associate with other people simply because of the fact that they are a member of a site or group...and this one goes beyond just Simtropolis and SC4 Devotion.  To me, that's a perfect parallel to racism, and absolutely no less wrong.  That's what made me realize that this was a serious problem.  I really would like to thank joerg for bringing up this topic, because I don't think that we can ignore this elephant in our room any longer...not when it's grown this big.

At this point, I'm not looking for a magical friendship, either.  Just a little civility towards each other would be great.   You know...stop saying that people are bad simply on the basis of their membership/support to a certain site.  And maybe stop putting down entire fan sites simply because you have a conflict with a tiny number of members on that site.  I think just doing that would go a long way in at least shrinking this split in the community...and it's not at all hard to do.  Just takes a bit of courtesy, is all.

P. S. I posted this in joerg's thread at ST, as well...

[dedgren]

Folks, I've just moved three messages from this thread as not being consistent with the discussion we are trying to have.  I'll say please this last time- we are trying to be positive here, out of respect if for no other reason than for joerg's original post.  If you want to say negative things, PM me and say them directly.  I'll always listen and I'm a "safe space" kind of guy.  I might tell you you're all wet in response, but I'll be respectful about it.  On the other hand, it might turn into an extended dialogue and we might solve a problem or two as a result.

But this is not the place.  Please.

@HabLeUrG:  Great quote!


David

[flame1396]

Very well put....

It is true but I don't know if it is fixable. 

[MsD]

I think this might go along the lines of discussion here.

I posted this in another thread over on ST and to me it still seems to fit along the topic of discussion.

I was not trying to bash the NAM team or Dirk.  I was trying to use that whole debacle as an example to emphasize my point.

My point is simple.  Everyone just needs to stop complaining about this, that or the other things.
Who cares what Lots, Bats, Mods, NAM, tools and/or anything else are not on this site.  If you can't find what you want here, try another site.

If you do a google search for a green BMW with mag wheels, you may have to visit several sites before you find what you are looking for.  The same goes here.  IF YOU CAN'T FIND IT, TRY SOMEPLACE ELSE.

Now as far as members leaving and taking up shop on another site.  Who cares?  I am a member on six different SC4 fan sites, just like the majority of the members here.  Who cares if the BSC is not here.  If I want to download their creations or talk to a BSC member, then I go to the site where they hang out at.  I don't come to this forum and start threads that are intent on crying about it.  I just deal with it.

Life is full of people, things and/or situations that we do not like.  We all just have to learn to deal with what we don't like.

A good example is me.  When the 2PR restriction was placed on Jackies Kabin, I didn't like it.  I made the mistake of acting childish about it.  I realized my error and made my apologies to most (except one) and they responded in kind.  Now it is over and done with.  I have moved on.

Why can't others do the same?  Why must there be those who cry because their ice cream is to cold?

Now,  I have said my peace.  I have done my part to put and end to all this whining.  If those who choose to whine choose to continue then so be it.  I won't speak no more on the subject.  I am done.  I am moving on.  (no not leaving ST, just moving on to what I enjoy)

I have had my own bad experiences at ST.  Not really with the site itself or with Dirk but with a few (very few) members and one Moderator in particular.  I have moved on and am still a member at ST.  There are some people I enjoy talking with on a regular basis.

I don't know if the way I have decided to handle my situation is the right way or not but it works for me so I will pass on what I do as a suggestion.

I choose to only converse with those that are friendly with me and treat me with respect.

I choose to treat everyone with respect even if they don't return the respect. (though you may catch a hint of sarcasm or bitterness there is still respect.) 
An example - there is a member at ST who is a Moderator who has been caught treating others as if they are stupid.  Yet this Moderator is a very knowledgeable person and has help other and continues to do so.  So, when I noticed that someone was having a problem and that a suggestion was made to talk to this Moderator, I posted my agreement to the suggestion since this Moderator is very knowledgeable in the are the member needed help in.  However, I also gave fair warning to the original poster with the problem that if this Moderator is having a bad day it would show in their short temper.  (Yes, it was respectful but at the same time it had a tone of bitterness) 

I choose to go to what ever site I feel like going to and have a good time while I am there.

I choose not to let what other members on any site change my mood or ruin my day.

I choose to follow the proper procedures (That are Posted) on any site I choose to go to if I have a problem with another member instead of shooting my mouth off.

I choose to share my creations and game play with any site of my choosing.

I choose not to worry about those who may be offended if I don't share these things with a site of their choosing.

I choose to act more grown up then I have in the past.


You will notice that everything started with "I choose" it is all my choice.  Even how others affect me.  It is my choice to get mad, ignore or be respectful.  They can't force me to act a certain way.  No one can unless I allow them to do so.

Sites only get fractured if those involved choose to let it happen.

Pretty simple huh?

EDITED:  In response to Flame1396.  It is fixable as long as both parties agree or choose to fix it.

[jeronij]

Ok, it seems everybody has one opinion, but no one is answering Joerg.

Joerg, if you need help and you think any of us can help you, just let us know. Open a thread, send a PM...  I have no objections in participating in any shared project with any other site, while it ends in our site as well.



To all:

The only place where insults and attacks to other sites are not allowed is SC4Devotion.

Clearly speaking: 

Simtropolis is the only one site fomenting allowing this situation.

Why? :

If you talk bad or attack SC4Devotion at Simtropolis, you get applaus and laughs. You are an hero nothing happens.

If you talk bad or attack Simtropolis at SC4D, you get banned.

See the diference by yourselves. We have already taken measures to avoid this situation, but if these measures are not copied somewhere else (ST for instance) the situation will remain.

While other places allow this sort of attacks and behaviors, I will not share my personal work there.

Thread closed, and the former explained rule applies again. No further dicussion about this matter.


Btw, some of the posts we have removed can end into a ban. After reading these comments, I am more and more convinced that we are right when we dont allow talking about other sites here.



Note: I want to thanks to all the members who have positively contributed to this thread. Some of your comments show the great persons behind your avatars    Thanks for your support trying to help solving this situation. Words are nice, but we do also need facts from time to time.

(Edited because it was a bit exxagerated  )