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NAM Request - distance penalties

Started by sobol, October 16, 2007, 07:39:35 AM

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sobol

I am using it...  and they are still dumber than dirt.
I've got nothing.

mott

Quote from: sobol on October 20, 2007, 12:01:07 AM
I am using it...  and they are still dumber than dirt.

If you're running one of the 2x, 5x, or 10x speed versions, try one of the Maxis-speed "Perfect" versions with the longer commute instead.   If you were playing with 10x Speed then use the 10x Commute instead, and so on.  I'll bet they get smarter and not much else changes... just a hunch.  You can always not save. 

sobol

Quote from: mott on October 19, 2007, 06:23:10 PM
All you have to do is use one of the NAM's "perfect pathfinding" plugins - there's one that's just the default game settings, with your requests satisfied.   It's perfect every time.  If you've got a modern computer, give it a try.  It should work every time, even in the most pathological cases.  By now it has millions of hours of play-testing behind it.


I am, I am using the perfect pathfinding.. and still I find weird routes and completely insane pathing...  if I thought like that, I would never find work either.

Is there a way to force R$ to use rail/bus/subway and then road? R$$ subway/rail/road/bus? R$$$ Subway/rail/road/bus?  etc...  force them to use their brains and if they won't then mandate which they use first??  and another killer.. freight.. what da hell.. why use roads when the rail is faster and unobstructed and shortest as well?


Things like this.
I've got nothing.

jplumbley

@sobol Actually I think there is some sort of thing that can make the chances higher of how the sims choose their routes.  But, we dont know much about it and how it works yet, but maybe we can learn.  To be honest though I think you should atleast give one of the files Mott and I have made a test just to see how it will affect your city.  If you give it a test then you can give us some much needed feedback on what else you would like to see or if there are some things we can do to make it better,
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mott

Quote from: sobol on October 20, 2007, 09:40:47 AM
I am, I am using the perfect pathfinding.. and still I find weird routes and completely insane pathing...  if I thought like that, I would never find work either.

One of the fast-speed versions, by chance?  I'm just trying to isolate... I actually believe everyone who says the NAM causes abandonment problems.  Now that I know how this game really works, it wouldn't surprise me at all. 

The "Nx-Speed" mods aren't being carried through the rest of the simulators.  The process that decides what to build on a zone, is not aware that commutes are faster.  The result can be development-stalling, and inappropriate building patterns that lead to serial-abandonment issues.  Sims can go 10x farther, but the zone developer process does not know that.  It is making optimal decisions based on junk data.  Then people install the "demand mod" to make buildings grow anyway, and then the "abandonment mod" for when they inevitably go dark.  And then all the simulators are being fed garbage and nothing makes any sense.

This is not how one solves the original problem of making sure Sims can get to their jobs.  Speed mods also utterly defeat the pathfinding improvements that they are designed to make. 

Max Commute Time is what you change to make sure the Sims reach work..  The other simulators *will* notice this and act rationally in accordance with it.  Do not change the speeds from the Maxis-supplied range, you don't need to, and you don't want to.  If you properly carry a speed change all the way through all the simulators affected, you arrive at the same result as if you'd simply upped the Max Commute Time and been done with it.

The "2x/5x/10xSpeed" versions should not exist.

5x Commute is a *very* good choice though.  The internals of this game are still working at SC3K scale, 255 tiles = 16 km.   Raising the Max Commute by 4x, makes the simulators match the visual scale being presented to the user.  The game gets a whole lot more intuitive, and playable, as "desirability" and "commute distance" is considered more at a neighborhood scale, consistent with other aspects of gameplay.  5x Commute is close enough for the magic to happen. 

As a bonus, at "normal" speed, the "perfect" or "better' pathfinding actually works.
---

Quote
Is there a way to force R$ to use rail/bus/subway and then road? R$$ subway/rail/road/bus? R$$$ Subway/rail/road/bus?  etc...  force them to use their brains and if they won't then mandate which they use first??  and another killer.. freight.. what da hell.. why use roads when the rail is faster and unobstructed and shortest as well?

Yes, yes, and yes.  Last problem's fixed when you use a "perfect pathfinding" mod at "normal" speed. 

Be aware that industry will try to ship freight to the neighbor connection that is physically closest to the industry, will accept any other connection to that neighbor it finds along the way, will travel all over the map to do this rather than choose another neighbor.  If it is forced to accept a different neighbor, the player is penalized.

Shadow Assassin

QuoteThe "Nx-Speed" mods aren't being carried through the rest of the simulators.  The process that decides what to build on a zone, is not aware that commutes are faster.  The result can be development-stalling, and inappropriate building patterns that lead to serial-abandonment issues.


That seems to explain the problems I have had with developing the last bit of a large city tile in my previous cities. Maybe your pathfinding mod will fix this issue, and finally, I don't have to artificially stimulate demand (ie. planting trees for desirability) in order to get things to grow.
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mott

Quote from: Shadow Assassin on October 20, 2007, 06:01:05 PM
That seems to explain the problems I have had with developing the last bit of a large city tile in my previous cities. Maybe your pathfinding mod will fix this issue, and finally, I don't have to artificially stimulate demand (ie. planting trees for desirability) in order to get things to grow.

I sure hope so.  The NAM's pathfinding-option tree needs pruning.   

You don't need 50 options, you need one that makes the game work intuitively.  And maybe a few capacity mods - properly carried through - to support the CAM and NWM-related adjustments.  There's really only one correct balance point for the rest of it all.  If the version you're testing allows all the Sims to get to their jobs on most maps, we're already very close to it. 

One baseline plugin that works well will solve so many ongoing support issues... I strongly urge dropping the speed-increased versions in the next release, and cautioning against their continued use, no matter how the rest of this work plays out though. 

sobol

Whoa......  lots of info there.. good info.. when my brain works I will read it closely and figure it out.....  and add input if I can...  help even.
I've got nothing.

sobol

So, what I am trying to do is 5x commute length and normal speeds and perfect pathfinding, and the rest I can get rid of?
I've got nothing.

mott

Quote from: sobol on October 21, 2007, 10:48:20 AM
So, what I am trying to do is 5x commute length and normal speeds and perfect pathfinding, and the rest I can get rid of?

I'd recommend cleaning out any demand mods and such, and trying the Normal-Speed, 5x-Commute, "Better" Pathfinding version first.   It's the closest to what the rest of the game is expecting.

I'm looking at it like this: Everything I learned from my brief interaction with wouzingame (sp?)  says that the simulator's algorithms *are* "perfect."  They reach an optimum decision based on the information presented to them, every time.

Therefore: "Bad" decisions are caused by "bad" information.  Feeding in more lies (like 10x speed increases) will not correct anything, ever.  That can only cause more problems. 

Now, the following information in the game as supplied is wrong, and is causing most of people's problems:

1) The "pathfinding heuristic" is set too high.  Will Wright did this intentionally, so the game would still play well on "worst-case" maps with many diagonal streets and obstacles (like rivers) preventing straight-line paths.   The problem is, it doesn't play as well in the more common case of a reasonably-sane city.  The same adjustment made to avoid penalizing stupidity, makes it fail to reward intelligence.  [The "better pathfinding" has the best value of any out there, including the default, IMO.]

2) The internal calculations about distance were not scaled to match the "new" SC4 scale of 16m/tile.  This is easily corrected by simply increasing Max Commute by 4 (the other simulators refer to this value, so they re-scale themselves also).  The problem is, the Civic buildings are also SC3K scale, in effect radius vs. cost.  They need to be either 4x larger in effect radius, or 4x cheaper to compensate, to match what the demand simulator will then expect of them.  "Larger" is probably what was intended.  The 5x Commute is close enough to 4x that it works well.

3) None of the default transit stations has a "Entry Cost," which makes them take zero time to traverse.  Sims walk through bus stops as a result, and prefer to get off the bus, walk through, and get back on, rather than remain on the bus.  This is just the pathfinder making the best choice (teleport!) from the information presented.  The solution to this is in the bus stops, not in the pathfinder.

4) Sims preferring transit are penalized if they must drive (their trips actually take longer), and I think the other way around to a lesser extent.   The problem here is, it randomly changes the "commute time" guesses that the zone developer makes, and we need those as accurate as possible.  I see what they were trying to do with this, but it ends up just producing inexplicable no-job zots that confuse end-users because they have no way of knowing what exactly is causing the problem.   

Just fixing those small things, to improve the information fed to the simulators, improves gameplay so much that it would probably solve 90% of the problems people have. 

sobol

Mott:  I will make those changes as you mentioned...  the only MODS I am running are the double/quadruple of water pipe radius.. and low dilapidation on buildings.. because it was abandoning them like crazy.  I am going to get rid of the extra stuff on the pathfinding and speeds that comes with nam and leave it under "Normal" "5x commute", and "perfect pathfinding".  I hope that works. 

Should I try the other one you guys mentioned 02a or whatever it was...
I've got nothing.

sobol

Update #1:  I switched to the prescribed conditions, and so far so good.  The no jobs zots that plagued certain regions disappeared.  I am going to have to check the whole map to see if it's good all over.  I will also start monitoring traffic patterns to see how they were affected.
I've got nothing.

mott

Quote from: sobol on October 22, 2007, 08:16:19 AM
Update #1:  I switched to the prescribed conditions, and so far so good.  The no jobs zots that plagued certain regions disappeared.

:thumbsup:  Thanks for the report.  Looks like another alpha-test is imminent, then.

This topic is about "DISTANCE PENALTIES" so I thought I'd report back findings so far:

When a Sim first commutes off-map, the traffic simulator doesn't know if he can really get to work in the other city or not, so it assigns a temporary "max commute" time to his trip.  When you play the other city, the trip can finish.  Then, when you play the first city again, that Sim's "commute time" will be replaced (with the amount of time it takes the Sim to reach the map edge?  Note to self, check some Savegame files to see what it's keeping track of).

If there's a place where I can change that temporary "Maximum" assignment, I haven't found it yet.  I'll change it to something more like 10 minutes if I ever do.  Sounds a lot like an EXE constant to me, but I'm keeping an open mind about it.

sobol

#33
Mott:  Thank you so very much.  I wish I knew how to give ya some positive rep.. you and the other fellows that responded definately deserve it.

:thumbsup:

My "no job zots" cleared within a few game months..  Passenger rail usage is up.. road traffic is down.  Subway use and ferry use are off the charts.  Even freight rails and their respective stations are being used.  I am very happy.  Your parameters work great.  Now I will start testing to see where the sims go.  I wish there was a way to have a "my sim" tracked through several different squares as they go to/fro work.

Now, the distance stuff...  let me know how I can help.

Oh yea.. the 01a and 02a programs you all wrote..  do they help?? 
I've got nothing.

mott

Quote
Oh yea.. the 01a and 02a programs you all wrote..  do they help?? 

I just upped an alpha "a03" that formalizes all the settings... if changing to the old NAM plugin I recommended helped, then the a03 will rock you. ;)

Best thing people can do is just verify that these things are working.  Now that I know what the algorithms are doing, I can predict the behavior of them.  Every report tells me how good/bad my predictions are so I can refine further.  There isn't a lot of work; there are only about three numbers that really "tune" this thing.  WHICH numbers, though... Intuitive guesswork, test results, and Calculus tell me that. :)

And if anyone finds the commute time being assigned to off-map trips; PLEASE tell me where the heck it is.  I believe people who say they saw it, I just can't find it!  &hlp

sobol

Mott: link me to the A03 download if you want me to try it and please include detailed instructions on what I need to do with it.

How are you with the custom airports (vers 2.2?)
I've got nothing.

sobol

Hey Mott...

Something weird happened.  I hit the 750k people over three regions and all hell broke loose.. everyone completely forgot how to function...  I got really mad and zapped the whole region.. I am starting over.. each time I get better at it....  but it was weird.
I've got nothing.

mott

@Sobol: You didn't happen to take any pics before you nuked it, did you?

---
Idea #1:

If you think the fast-speed demand problems are bad, wait 'till you find out what can happen across regions, even in a default game.

Imagine a region of 3 cities, A, B, and C. 
All three are connected to each other in a triangle pattern, so there is a "loop," and Sims can travel A-B-C-A, or A-C-B-A.
Sims live in A.  B and C each have 100 jobs available, for a total of 200 jobs in the region.

A Sim living in A looks at B, and sees 100 jobs there.  City B also advertises access to the 100 jobs in C, for a total of 200 jobs.
The Sim then looks at C, and sees 100 jobs there.  City C also advertises access to the 100 jobs in B, for a total of 200 jobs.

The demand simulator in city A has no way to know that those are the same 200 jobs both ways. It thinks there are 400 jobs, and acts accordingly.
(Think about what happens if there's a fourth city involved in the "loop," or what could happen across large regions!)

Neighbor deals do this, too.  It's why garbage demands seem to grow out of control as a region develops - each city counts its garbage needs, plus the needs of all the other cities  it touches.  The other cities do the same thing.  They have no way to know that they are double- or triple-counting the same garbage that the other city just counted.

Same goes for everything.  There's no such thing as a "region," just a bunch of independent cities that have no idea where they are on the map in relation to each other, or how they are connected.  There is no regional pathfinding at all.

The only way to beat it, is to intentionally lay out your regions so that there's only one way to travel between any two cities.  If there's no "loop," there's no problem. 

----
Idea #2:

Remember, this game has its own process scheduler.  (That's why it appears to the system as one process that uses 100% CPU, and it can't spread across cores.)  The UI is always getting a certain (generous) amount of CPU time no matter what.  The UI won't lag even if the rest of the game has overloaded and ground to a halt.

The game engine "freezes" at some point, and Sims "go crazy," no matter what - it's just a matter of how many Sims can move in before the amount of data to be calculated exceeds the CPU time available, and "Simulator Lag" kicks in.  Then you start seeing no-car zots on new zones that clearly have road access, and new Sims abandon because they can't find their jobs.  Once it takes more than six game-months before the pathfinder gets enough CPU time to calculate all the new trips, you've hit the wall.  The inevitability of this should be obvious enough.

Computers are faster now, but they're not THAT much faster.  You can keep cities small and have neat pathfinding mods and lots of complex custom BATs, and burn your extra clock time on that.  Or you can go CAM-style and try to pack them in like Sardines, buring your CPU time that way, and let everything else rot.    Can't do both.  I don't care how fast your computer is.  Not even NASA has the kind of power needed to fully simulate a city of 1.25 million people in real-time, with graphics.

jplumbley

Finally!!  Someone else who understands.. Our computers are not built to do everything we want, we just physically cannot make everything work as it would in real life.  We can do our best but at this point in time it will never happen.

You can either have 3D Graphics or a somewhat decent Simulator, not both.  This is the reason SC: S and CU and CL all are 3D Games first with "crappy" simulators, because you cannot have both.  3D Games are the way of the future and in about 10 years you might see a City Simulation that has 3D Graphics of today with the Simulator of SC4 with a few fixes due to the learning curve.  You wont see a computer that can handle both until that time, if we are lucky.
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Andreas

My thoughts exactly. :) The Maxis developers have done a pretty damn good job with SC4, actually. It's likely that only the tight deadlines that prevented them from doing all the fine-tuning for the simulator (and many other stuff as well), and it constantly amazes me what the community is able to do with a game that is almost five years old. :)
Andreas