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SimCity 4 Devotion Custom Content Showcase => TD Place => Inactive Teams => Team Custom Content Projects => TD Creations => Topic started by: thingfishs on November 11, 2009, 11:33:22 PM

Title: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: thingfishs on November 11, 2009, 11:33:22 PM
Alright, the day has finally arrived, I have my own thread.
As I've said elsewhere I've been a long term player of SC4, but as a ppc mac user was unable to partake in the creation of content. But now I can. :thumbsup:

First of all thanks to tooheys who just over two weeks ago suggested I take a look at the Lot Editor http://sc4devotion.com/forums/index.php?topic=9194.0 to obtain some of the props I was after. A door was opened. So I learnt to LOT and decided to make a version of the family business, Shottesbrooke Winery. I made a LOT of some vineyards which I was happy with, then went about trying to find a prop resembling the main winery building, and my dream started to vanish, or more to the point I was faced with the daunting task of learning to BAT. But as always the fear of the unknown is always worse than the reality. Though I've got a long way to go, I've been able to create a model and get it functioning into the game, that looks more like Shottesbrooke than anything I was going to find.  So for me, I am already happy.

However I would like to make it better. Please keep in mind that I've only just started doing this, this is my VERY FIRST BAT. As far as texturing goes I've hardly done anything, and that's one area I want some help with. Also how to make realistic gutters. How to apply different textures on different faces of the same object. What's the deal with the giant diagonal on the roof?
But more than anything at this point how to best go about constructing the top of the main building's roof. The x and y measurements of the building are from the blueprints, but I've had to guess with the rest.

So here it is, Shottesbrooke Winery http://www.shottesbrooke.com.au/, the family business from Mclaren Vale in South Australia.
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FImLjF.png&hash=cd8939b4d33666506b6b9eaf8b8097dbbc81bb10)

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FHFDhd.jpg&hash=dcfa8f3298b60c04471b4529c314e12554213322)

and my rudimentary impression
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FfDKhP.png&hash=49b8ddfce39f90851138cd2d47fea35e855177eb) (https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FuLwUS.png&hash=e2231fbbd093e1e48369de462580f91e57a32029) (https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2F0xvMx.png&hash=0687cd8ca98b7804904c388d02657a6d3fbb11bf) (https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FJ8J3B.png&hash=5fb19c6d0d797b6d35d44cfd7c3514bd9d2f82fb)
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T (wanna take a look)
Post by: joelyboy911 on November 12, 2009, 01:39:34 AM
Hi thingfishs, this is looking very nice so far. However, the last 2 pictures show that there is still plenty of work to be done, and I hope you also add the barnstyle thing on the roof. I see you've photo-textured it, on the doors, which looks nice, but there are certain traps that one can fall into if this method is overused.

Hmmm, the roofs and eaves need some detailing, I think, and the textures in general need some work.

This is a very, very promising start. You're doing a good job so far.
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T (wanna take a look)
Post by: thingfishs on November 14, 2009, 10:46:19 PM
thanks joelyboy,
I've battled on, and though there's some progress to show, there's some steps back as well. It is quickly becoming apparent that texturing sucks, I mean, is challenging. I've been learning to adjust the textures on the different walls independently via the gizmo tool, but that seems to be causing other problems. I'll get there...
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FjnR8x.png&hash=f46a0f32bd3fcb0c8f6fc26d0a142921ad5ad6f7)    (https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FPzIgT.png&hash=57014ab47616309d22d5e3f2703ccf9f2c235151)
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T (wanna take a look)
Post by: joelyboy911 on November 14, 2009, 10:58:22 PM
Yes, it is apparent that the textures still need work. However, it is definitely improving.

@Moderators. You could move this into the TD Creations, please.  :)
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T (wanna take a look)
Post by: kwakelaar on November 15, 2009, 12:15:30 AM
Your winery is coming along nicely. :thumbsup:
Texturing is always the most difficult part of any bat. It is often better to make a texture for the whole roof or wall in a photoshop like program, than adjusting textures in the BAT itself. Then you can ad a gradient and other things to your texture and it will not repeat when you use it.
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T (wanna take a look)
Post by: adroman on November 15, 2009, 12:48:18 AM
Awesome work Thingfishs.  :thumbsup:

Hope we can get this over to Team Downunder soon...

Those textures need some work, but the actual BAT is wicked cool... (Yes, I did just say that  ::))

Havva good one,
Adrian.
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T (wanna take a look)
Post by: Earth quake on November 15, 2009, 12:53:18 AM
Really good start thingfishs
These textures are perfect but you should clarify the texture of the door. :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T (wanna take a look)
Post by: thingfishs on November 15, 2009, 07:31:10 AM
Thanks everyone for the comments.
Earth Quake, what do you mean by clarify the texture of the door (is clarify a technical term or do you just mean to make clearer, please clarify ;))
Well I can't say I've done much else today, but what are sundays for? Therefore I have another update, and my first within the confines of my new Australian production headquarters, Team Downunder. :thumbsup:
I decided to scrap the texture I was working with and try something else. It was initially "overexposed?" when brought into the game, but a little work in photoshop got it looking ok. The lines are facing the wrong way on both buildings (for drainage into the gutters) but I'll figure it out. It's still not right (too blue & too clean for starters), but I prefer this version to the last. Also I have started working on the tanks. (a couple of them have their lids off.)

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2F78Ovr.png&hash=861c7e32d90b559778e6ed1904045ed59026f28a) (https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FFocfM.png&hash=042bff12eea94d801387592366e7fc414d6002dd)

However now there are black diagonal lines invading. Possibly something to do with the lighting setup? Or saving my city after I exported it and continuing on?
Does anyone know what that is?

Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T (wanna take a look)
Post by: hooha47 on November 15, 2009, 07:47:34 AM
I just noticed you started this thread.  Your first BAT is looking great.  I can't help you with any of your problems, because I don't know anything about BATting, but it looks like you're off to a great start.  And you've joined what looks to be a promising new team.  Congratulations!   :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T (wanna take a look)
Post by: Earth quake on November 15, 2009, 07:59:16 AM
Thingfishs, I wanted to say "make clearer the door". It's an error of translation of me (and a error of the translator :-[)
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T (wanna take a look)
Post by: thingfishs on November 15, 2009, 08:04:18 AM
do you mean the big brown door with the bricks around it, or the grey sliding doors?

Oh and thanks Jeff, you've been a great help in general (and are doing such a good job with the other area I was first inclined to dabble in, being MMPs of course ;), that I was virtually forced into BATing.)
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T (wanna take a look)
Post by: kwakelaar on November 15, 2009, 08:36:05 AM
I actually liked your first texture better, it is more clear what kind of material it is, but that is really your choice. :)
You can chose the alignment of your texture in the roll-down under UVW- mapping, you will then need to adjust the length, width and height of your texture afterwords.
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T (wanna take a look)
Post by: gottago on November 15, 2009, 08:46:23 AM
Hmm, was just going to post what kwakelaar just said--the first texture is better. Closer in color and overall effect. I'd just pass it through PS and reduce the contrast 10-15 percent to calm it down a bit.

You should also make versions for each element--and add gradients to accentuate the planes.

Also, give your roofs longer eaves (overhangs); the RL bldg has them and you'll get more interesting shadows going on.

The bldgs are very minimalist in RL, so don't delete any details, like the flat ribs that run along the roof edges, or that long thin triangular gable attached to the clerestory of the main block--they're simple enough to model and will add more interest.

good start! :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T (wanna take a look)
Post by: thingfishs on November 16, 2009, 04:36:16 AM
thanks gottago and kwakelaar, I really appreciate the technical advice, and I have come to agree with your judgement.
Even though the second texture was sampled from the building's roof itself and seems to match the overhead photo reasonably well, it still just doesn't look right. I reduced the contrast as suggested which has definitely helped. Also the alignment for the top sections is now correct, however the sides on some are now a bit screwy.

As for your second line gottago, I suspect my answer might be in there. I'm brand new to the whole concept of 3D modeling so I'm still catching up with the terms. When you say make versions for each element, do you mean for each object or each face of each object. (a gmax glossary would come in handy) As for adding a gradient does that happen in photoshop or gmax?
I have also added the triangle to the top, I mean I have attached the triangular gable to the clerestory (thanks for expanding my vocabulary) But I've just noticed now it seems to be floating slightly. I also made the very top more pronounced and with bigger eaves.

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2Fx87OQ.png&hash=1c8f1f8bb2b58b3a86d422da11fb838fdb5c1d88)

Also I am going to try and fill in the rest of the main production area shown in this photo (but simplified!)

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FMtP7U.jpg&hash=4696e9355b9cbfeca55c9cbb1fb3b347cb797167)

There's several sets of aluminium (aluminum) stairs and other bits and pieces here; I thought someone may have already made something like these for an industrial or otherwise prop pack. Does anyone know of any?
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T (wanna take a look)
Post by: dobdriver on November 16, 2009, 05:10:35 AM
Hi Thingfishs


That is really starting to come along nicely, the corro can be very tricky as it is rather shiny. but stick with it and welcome to the team..

Cheers
dobdriver
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T (wanna take a look)
Post by: gottago on November 16, 2009, 05:15:11 AM
Looks much better :thumbsup:

I should have been more specific about "versions"--what I meant was that you're going to have to make a different texture for each element of your model from your original corrugated texture. That way you can control their scale and placement and give them gradients and weather them a bit to kill the "brand new" look. A bit time-consuming, but essential to getting everything uniform and coherent. (Good textures are in many ways more important than the model itself for getting a good result, and you'll end up spending about as much time on them as the modeling.)

Easy way to do it: look at the dimensions of your roof planes, walls, etc., and make a proportionally scaled texture for each of them in PS, 1 to 1. Then in PS you can add a subtle gradient overlay, darker on the bottom, to give more 3-dimensionality to the model. Gascooker has a great tutorial in this in the ST omnibus <a href="http://www.simtropolis.com/omnibus/index.cfm/Main.SimCity_4.Custom_Content.Using_Photochops_Doge_Burn_to_Fake_RayTracing>here.</a>

Once you've done that, you can weather the textures a bit with some streaks and dirt colors near gutters and at the base of walls, etc.

As for the gable, just extend the walls and let them push through the surrounding areas. Gmax doesn't care if you overlap elements; in fact it's a good practice to do so to avoid light leaks later when you do nightlights. (That is, the end of one element can go partway into another in visible areas; you don't want them popping through walls, etc.)
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T (wanna take a look)
Post by: thingfishs on November 17, 2009, 01:18:02 PM
Cheers dobdriver, and thanks again gottago for the detailed info. Okay, well I've started having a play adding gradients and had more failure than success, but the ratio's improving. Often there was a too extreme change between light and dark, and the version on the main building is clearly still tiling (not to mention diagonal). I understand texturing is going to take some time to get my head around, so in the interest of sanity I have pressed on.

I have started, as I said I would, filling in the outside production area, and am quite happy with how it's progressing. I still would love some metal stairs if anyone knows of any.

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2F44CzY.png&hash=a7da44645231d137a5e594f8f71da7b95149b5cc) (https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FEyX5o.png&hash=119e27f55c9ee07c111ac3cd984c88976b6be7c5)  (https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2F7BwyZ.png&hash=83f3d53d5ab4c9d0164f945c13414bcd39fa5c3c)

The back right hand corner of the lot, seen at the bottom of the middle picture, contains the crusher pit. This is where the trucks back up to and tip in their load of grapes to start the process.
Actually I'm really happy with how this is looking (green tanks and other colour and texture issues aside) But please keep the advice coming.  :)

Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T (wanna take a look)
Post by: adroman on November 17, 2009, 01:27:37 PM
That is some awesome work...  :thumbsup:
and those textures have grown on me!

I think that this, as you're probably planning, would make an excellent Farm shed (House in place of a better word) along side a house and machinery shed would make an excellent farm pack... again, you've probably got this all worked out... anyway, it would be great to launch a Farming series, I know that Joel recently made some dairy farms for his MD, I did a few custom lots of Sugar Cane for mine... and I guess that livestock wouldn't be that hard to do... there are heaps of cow models out there (and sheep for the Kiwi's  ;)). Again, just my thoughts on the overall project.

The way you've redone your roof is excellent, it makes it that much more realistic. I think by Gradient they meant take the texture to Photoshop (or similar) and reduce the Gradient of the image; I'm not big on 'shopping', so that's just a stab in the dark.

Excellent work so far, hope to see more...

Havva good one,
Adrian.
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T (wanna take a look)
Post by: thingfishs on November 18, 2009, 03:14:20 AM
thankyou Adroman,
I don't quite follow you there, I do intend for this to be agricultural, and I see potential in a farming pack. (warning: rant ahead)
Actually I want to make it a reward. I'm a big fan of rewards and don't think there are enough of them. The more of these there are the more unique every city will be. So if you build a farming city and plant enough vines (and maybe get enough workers?) then you will be able to build the winery. (This also reflects the real life story of Shottesbrooke where the vines were planted and the first wines released a full ten years before my step-father was able to raise enough capital to build the winery.)
Farming in my opinion often looks a bit unrealistic because it's too closely modelled on how cities are structured. You don't tend to have 15 types of crop in such a confined area, though you do tend to have 15 types of businesses. This way you won't have shottesbrookes popping up where they aren't wanted.
um... thoughts anyone?
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T (wanna take a look)
Post by: gottago on November 18, 2009, 05:19:44 AM
Hi thingsfish, I see you're having problems with your textures. I'll try to explain again, clearer, how to go about handling them.

You've got your ur texture, a rectangle representing corrugated metal. Make it big enough to cover the largest element you have (I assume that's one of the large roofs) without tiling at the correct scale. It looks like your texture is already large, but if it's not big enough, you can use the PS rescale function to scale things up without blurring. Check the dpi and the image dimensions and note all that for later. Let's say the roof is 20x 40 m in gmax and your texture is 300 x 600 px @ 72 dpi, just to have some figures to explain with. Now, you have to make a different version of that texture for each piece of the building it's going to be applied to.

Say you want to make a texture for the smaller shed's roofs. Get the dimensions of one of them from gmax; say its 10 x 15m. Do some basic math and use a ratio to figure out how big the new texture should be. In this case, we know that 20 m = 300 px, so the new roof texture should be 150 x 225 px.

Click on your PS crop tool and set the resolution to the dpi you noted and the width & length to 150 px & 225 px. When you drag the crop tool it will automatically make a window of the proper dimensions. Double click and voila, you've got your base texture for the small roofs at the right scale. Rinse and repeat as needed, saving each version under a new name.

Now you can go back to each one and apply gradients and weathering as you see fit. Use layers until you're happy with the result, then merge the layers and save under a new name and keep the originals as .psd files with the layers because you'll undoubtedly have to go back and tweak various layers several times to get things right.

Remember to invert one of your paired roof textures in your uv map rollout so the gradients are mirrored. Obviously, don't use tiling with this method--apply them 1 to 1.

That's pretty much it for basic textures, thus ending my first tutorial  $%Grinno$%

Good luck with it!
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T (wanna take a look)
Post by: thingfishs on November 18, 2009, 06:08:49 AM
thanks a lot again gottago, I appreciate the effort.
I will give all that a go. Texturing has been the most difficult but I gather that's nothing new.
Here's where I am up to today anyway, I have added the pavers in the courtyard (amongst other things.) That's when I thought, okay we need some potted plants out here, I'll just add some props in the LE. Then when I attempted to do so I was reminded of Barby letting me know that you can't place a prop on a bat. So what do you do? Do I need to have just a brick base texture so I can add props or is there some way of incorporating the props into it in gmax?

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FFtAyw.png&hash=1d2493df55ee412c9835720d39fe2eafd2797068)  (https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2F5JRRJ.png&hash=2c798d07c63f5cb2c92b8696ff100bb9fb25d5dc)  (https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FUzfiN.png&hash=441b61e6150add1ee081337cc995650e5d0f9d73)
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T (wanna take a look)
Post by: dobdriver on November 18, 2009, 06:41:21 AM


I like the idea of a reward rather than a growable, like you say you don't want em popping up on every corner.

The corros coming along nicely the oxidised grey is a good colour, maybe you can try to age it a little?.

I cannot help with info about gmax and props though.

Is there any pipework to go around the tanks etc? or is it inground?

take it easy
dobdriver
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T (wanna take a look)
Post by: gottago on November 18, 2009, 06:55:08 AM
Me again  ::)

I'd tile your brick texture at least 4x what you have now.

As for props, you've got to make your own, unless you can get some from another BATter. they have to be gmax or .3ds files.

Or you can refit your LODs tightly around the building to make an L and then fit out the lot in LE with regular props. (LODs are just boxes that the BAT automatically generates and that the gmax model and textures are "painted" onto. They're normally hidden but you can go to Display, click "unhide all" and theyll pop up in your viewscreen. Then you can refit/edit them using planes. Just edit one and clone and rename the other 2.) 
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T (wanna take a look)
Post by: thingfishs on November 18, 2009, 07:18:30 AM
yeah those bricks are a bit large aren't they. As for the LODs, that's the first I've heard the term, but I have come across three gigantic green boxes that appear out of nowhere when I select unhide all. I've just been hiding them and pretending I saw nothing... I'll look up more info on them, that sounds like the way to go with all those great props out there. So when people are adding things like what's termed "roof junk" to their buildings, are they newly creating all those things themselves? I always assumed they were props. Or have they done the LOD thing? Of course if you happen to know of a good tutorial on LODs, please pass it on.

- dob (just trying it out), thanks for the vote for rewards. As much as I'm strongly pro-grow, I'm glad you agree this doesn't seem like that kind of building. But a straight plopable is boring. As for aging the iron I intend to try, I'm just not quite at that point yet; gottago is getting me on the right track. As for pipe work, not really, there's a few but most of the transferring of wine is done via large flexible, movable hoses which are usually lying in a bunch on the concrete somewhere. I intend to try to do a pile of them, but have no idea yet how.
However there are plenty of railings, steps, platforms and gangways (see the pictures on the first page) but I know I have to take it easy there or it'll become too cluttered. That's the main area where I think some artistic license has to be taken.
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T (wanna take a look)
Post by: gottago on November 18, 2009, 08:09:09 AM
The LODs (Level Of Detail) are hidden by default, along with the camera and lightrig. There's no tutorial on them, just edit them using planes, or rebuild them, its frankly easier. make sure the edges align perfectly, so use simple units.

If you don't have it, DL a copy of philipbo's gmax tutorial on the stex omnibus--it's excellent and very thorough. I think he deals with LODs somewhere.

Re: roofjunk, they have to be gmax files built into the model, otherwise they'd disappear in LE because of the LODs blocking them out--like when in LE your props vanish when they get too close to the building box--that's the LODs in action.

There are a fair number of gmax hvac units on the stex; do a search, you can import them. But not much else in the way of gmax "props" are out there. 
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T (wanna take a look)
Post by: kwakelaar on November 18, 2009, 10:01:08 AM
I would say don't bat the pavements, and avoid the problem with props and LOD's (not entirely though). The best thing IMHO is to not do the batted pavements and make a custom LOD. The LOD's do not need to be very accurate this way. And further it makes using your bat for other things a lot easier, more flexible.

I must say the texturing on walls and roof is looking quite nice now. The extra small roof on top looks like the texture is smaller than on the main part of the roof?
The main entrance would benefit from being made in the model rather than being a texture.
This will be a very nice industrial like building :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T (wanna take a look)
Post by: thingfishs on November 23, 2009, 10:14:50 AM
I decided to add the primary garden but was having trouble understanding how LODs work. But thanks to some help, primarily from kwakelaar and gottago, I am getting there (although this first version is crude and there are some new shadow and texture issues) What's with the long shadows? And the plutonium lawn?
This was a quick first attempt at the garden and there's not much here that will remain, but I'm glad to know how I can go about doing it.

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FEW4Sp.png&hash=9165db291cac7af3f414e3de71bdeab2ee71c9e0)

Now that my basic plan is laid out can anyone suggest any better ways or modifications to this way of adding the gardens (without making all the props myself.) I've been explained some of the advantages of using base textures, would they be a better way to go with some of this? (the main reason I'm not inclined to do it that way is all the new textures I assume I would have to make) Having said that it seems it would be easy to draw the layout of the paths etc in photoshop and then cut it into the right sized pieces. I am fully prepared to throw all this new stuff away, but I'll admit I am feeling a little swamped by the complexity of my first BAT. Thanks again to those that have been helping.
At this point I am intending it to be a 4×4 LOT.
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T (wanna take a look)
Post by: adroman on November 24, 2009, 01:04:36 PM
looking excellent thingfishs...  :thumbsup:

I can't wait to see where this ends up!

Havva good one,
Adrian.
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T (wanna take a look)
Post by: kwakelaar on November 25, 2009, 09:06:16 AM
Getting grass to match in game can be quite difficult. There is a shift in colours when rendering in bat. Gascooker has written a tutorial about this.
Have you taken a look at the textures from different creators to see if you could find something that could fit your recreation? The textures you are showing in this picture does not look that out of the ordinary.
And which shadows are you referring to?
This is quite a complex building, and batting is not something that is very easy to master. You need to take your time.
For just starting out this is really excellent work. :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T (wanna take a look)
Post by: thingfishs on November 25, 2009, 11:02:51 PM
thanks Kwakelaar (and Adrian),
there's obviously been a misunderstanding as far as the base textures are concerned. I know there are great appropriate textures out there, but what I've been struggling to understand is what happens when the area you want to cover isn't a nice square of pavers but (for eg) a thin path flanked by concrete and garden. This is why I was assuming I would have to make new ones.
For example I want my lawn to have a thin concrete strip around it but the lawn textures I've seen are just lawn, or lawn & dirt, I haven't seen one with a concrete strip. But what I'm assuming now is that the base textures (perhaps with appropriately shallow LODs) will go under BATs. So in this case would I BAT the concrete strip, and have the lawn as a base texture?

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FLxJjg.png&hash=9a5fdaec31eff0baaff7589cc4b827ad9c990deb)

Also the long shadows I have pointed out, and have circled the other main issue in blue, in case anyone can offer additional info...
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T (wanna take a look)
Post by: gottago on November 26, 2009, 01:21:32 AM
Hi thingfishs,

Apparently you've jumped into BATting before understanding the basics of how models and lots work ingame--you're probably the first, which is not a criticism at all, as you've got a very good first BAT going here and you're an obvious, precocious,  talent at BAT. Almost everyone else starts BATting after playing around with the Lot Editor first, so they already know this stuff.

So, some basics: download the Lot Editor if you don't have it already from the EA support tab on the op of each SC4D page (there's also the new PIMX tool, but it's more complicated to use; learn the LE first). Install it, read a basic tutorial about how it works, and open up a lot.

You'll see a lot consists of a model file, props, base and overlay textures, flora, and other dependencies, and all can be tweaked or changed. A lot is a rectangle defined by a number of game squares, and textures are square planar overlays that allow you to decorate the lot--add grass or pavement using base textures, and add walkways, roads, tracks or garden beds using overlay textures.

Props are little BATs of people, trees, signage, furniture, etc. that give the lot detail and life, and can be put anywhere on the lot except where the building sits, which is defined by a grey square in LE.

The building, as I said before, is actually a version of the LOD--when you export your gmax model using the BAT, it renders an image of the model onto the LOD boxes to cut down on processor usage ingame. A simple box is easier to draw graphically than a huge poly-count model file. This is why I originally suggested you edit your LODs tightly around your building--if you just let the BAT create a square LOD, which is the default--it would also include the courtyard area of the model, and you'd have to go through the trouble of creating all the base textures and props that sit in the courtyard in gmax, when you could easily do this later in the LE using existing props and textures.

I don't know how you edited your LODs, but they should be an L-shaped box that fits around the buildings, without the brick court, loading area, or the garden. Just the buildings and the tanks.

Once you've exported, you can open up the LE and fit out your lot to your liking. Choose the lot size, orient your building on it, and add base textures for paving, grass and parking areas, then add overlays for walkways, etc., then add trees and people and cars and other details by placing props.

Right now you probably have only a few prop packs and texture packs in your plugins folder, but there are literally dozens and dozens of them created by other BATters and MODders that you can DL to find just the texture or prop that you need, and each one normally includes dozens of props or textures. There are even prop packs that contain buildings that have been converted into props, so you can add a shed, a house, or even a skyscraper to an existing lot that already has a building on it.

BATS of buildings don't usually have much ground around them when they're modeled exactly for this reason; the main reason to include a base is for nightlighting--because if you want to have a nightlight casting a glow on the ground, the ground that receives the light must be part of your BAT.

So ends BAT tutorial 2  ;)





Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T (wanna take a look)
Post by: joelyboy911 on November 26, 2009, 02:38:10 AM
If you want some ground textures made, I can give you a hand. If you make a png of the ground textures you want, with the height and width equal to 128 multiplied by the height and width, respectively, you can put whatever ground textures you want on that. These go differently in LE than props, they are locked to tiles. Anyway, I can make that image into textures, and we can either start compiling a texture pack, or as a team we can opt for a no-dependencies approach.
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T (wanna take a look)
Post by: thingfishs on November 26, 2009, 11:48:28 AM
Thanks once again gottago,

I appreciate your praise, & patience. I have no doubt you've been giving me good advice (I've seen the quality of your work), I just haven't always understood it, and feel reluctant to just keep posting "what? huh? do what with the what?"
This time however you've undershot slightly. I've been using the LE, that's how I added the props of the plants, truck, forklift and crates. I don't know too much about using it but like with all this I just feel my way around and slowly figure it out. What I still don't get with the lot editor is how to make things accurate without making a whole bunch of new textures. I'm not talking accurate as far as the textures are concerned, but as far as the layout is concerned. Hopefully this quick effort demonstrates what I am trying to say.

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FTjkcB.png&hash=033e91e315517b2567f86fd40d1123dd8de664dc)

This again is a quick go only. I have got a few of the best known (I think) prop packs installed. And though there are some okay brick textures for example, and a multitude of different paths etc. none that I could find that were even remotely close to both the right texture and layout. As I was trying to work out above, how do I have a thin concrete strip around my lawn? When the lawn itself is only 1 tile × 1/2 a tile and has a particular shape, bordered the whole way by concrete, how do I possibly arrange a number of tiles to represent it? Surely I need to create a brand new texture? (not that I'm against this, it just seemed like there might be another way)

(For what it's worth I took a shot of my LOD, is this the sort of arrangement you were talking about?)

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FJgRmY.png&hash=872b2b5bb433987be32b117b37d10fcb1cef1e4d)

Joellyboy: I'm not fully following you either, but we'll chat.

What I want to do is have the curvy layout of the lawns (with the thin concrete strip), the brick path that widens as it reaches the courtyard. The smaller planter beds etc etc, just as they appear in life. I've established that I can do that (albeit crudely) with flat LODS over the lawn/path etc layout that I create in gmax. Am I not right in assuming that in order to achieve the same level of accuracy with the LE that I would have to create my own base/overlay textures?
Not to just have a brick path that's roughly in the right place, but one that is about as accurately positioned and proportioned as the building itself.

If anyone knows of any particularly appropriate packs please suggest them. And if I am yet again missing the the blatantly obvious point here, please forgive me.  ()what()
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T (wanna take a look)
Post by: joelyboy911 on November 26, 2009, 11:59:38 AM
Yes, I'm saying that you could/should make your own base and/or overlay textures. I was also saying that I can make them for you...
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T (wanna take a look)
Post by: thingfishs on November 26, 2009, 12:01:19 PM
man that was fast :D (I just sent you a pm, nah surely you couldn't have responded that fast), I thought you were getting on the right track.
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T (wanna take a look)
Post by: mattb325 on November 26, 2009, 02:10:19 PM
Hi Thingsfish

This is a really great first BAT  &apls

I see you've got the custom LODs made.

BUT for this project which is quite small and doesn't sit in water or have automata go through it etc, etc, custom LODs are (in my opinion anyway) overkill. I think the shadow problem you are experiencing is wrapped up in the custom LODs. It would be better to just let the BAT define the LODs as a simple box and split your model into parts according to the boxes.

A very obvious split is the smaller shed. Leave the little connector shed to the main building and then render the smaller one as prop and place it together in the LE. That way, no LODs will be in your turning area and you can place props. You could also split the tanks too - the main shed is quite box shaped so you could likely push props quite close to it without visual glitches.

Also, if you can't think of any nice overlays and so, perhaps BAT the base - again - make it a seperate prop and slide it under the main buidlings: so long as it is under 0.2m high, you can tell the game to cast shadows on it - to see this in action, check out any of Somys apartments, some of Gascookers creations or some of SGs early residentials. Also some of Jetstarrs prop packs have concrete curbing in them to edge your lawns (mostly designed as a parking barrier - but it will give a similar result).

Look forward to using this in game!
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T (wanna take a look)
Post by: gottago on November 27, 2009, 02:31:01 AM
Checked back in to see where things are at and Matt offers a very good suggestion--I hadn't anticipated the shadow problem caused by the L-shaped LODs and he's right to make the smaller shed a prop instead. I thought of this earlier but hesitated to suggest it as I thought it would complicate things further for you on your first BAT but didn't foresee the shadow problem. Live and learn. In any event, if you had just used default LODs for the whole model you would still have the problem of having to model the staffage for the entire courtyard, so a custom LOD was not overkill, just produced an unanticipated glitch, and this is the best solution.

And sorry to undershoot so badly on my last post--if you want full accuracy then indeed making custom base/overlay textures or Matt's idea to BAT the lot as a texture/prop hybrid are the way to go--making textures is not that hard, and even easier if joelyboy is going to do it for you ;)

One thing I would add, though, is to model the large black entrance--make it a real opening, give it some thickness on the sides, put a in a plane sitting just above your base and give it an appropriate interior floor texture. From the ingame view, you'd see the interior floor with a raking shadow and it looks unnatural now.
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T (wanna take a look)
Post by: thingfishs on November 27, 2009, 01:02:42 PM
Yeah!, THANKYOU  :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
"make it a seperate prop and slide it under the main buidlings: so long as it is under 0.2m high, you can tell the game to cast shadows on it", this line took me from this :'( to this  ;D (eventually)

And thanks again gottago, this time particularly for acknowledging matt's idea. I doubly relaxed when you said it was the best solution too. All the, at times conflicting advice, is hard to process when you don't know what you're doing. Ah, but that was so long ago...
That was some valuable info mattb325, cheers. I know I probably haven't been explaining myself well but it's hard to do when all the terms are new. Also many people wouldn't care so much about the layout of the garden, but I helped create that thing and for me it's important.
I did as instructed, split the smaller building (the cellar door actually) from the main and made it a prop, and BATted the ground again making sure it was under 20cm (and made it a prop). This was the result.

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FGEg9H.png&hash=f53f7c6b295335d4ea9f54e4cd95775d5d47fa84)

Ignore the severely tiling textures (and the blue strip I missed), I added them very quickly, I just had to verify that this was going to work. And it did! Let's chuck in a couple more of these  :thumbsup: :thumbsup: and maybe one of these  &apls. I'm relieved to be able to move forward again.

gottago: As for the "large black entrance" I assume you're referring the large arched wooden door on the main building. This door is almost never opened. The main entrance doesn't really look like a main entrance.

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FrWQLw.jpg&hash=abd1fedf391d7558dc6b935030dc0a0a05432f1c)

1: Main entrance
2: These doors into the "Cellar Door" are only opened occasionally, usually when there's a few customers.
3: The big door. Usually closed, access into the main building is gained via the sliding doors on either end, or internally.

I do intend though, to separately texture it's three areas (stone/brick/wood) instead of just using the photo texture that's there now. I agree it looks like it should be the main entrance, but it's not.
Which gets me to another question. As far as doors opening is concerned, the sliding doors of the main building are nearly always open. But I made them closed because at night they would be shut. Is it possible to have the door open in the daytime and shut at night?
Thanks again also to joelyboy for his generous offer, but if I'm not mistaken it won't be necessary.  :)
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T (wanna take a look)
Post by: gottago on November 27, 2009, 01:49:07 PM
I'm very glad that it all worked for you and things are back on track. :thumbsup: 

Re: your lot textures, there are a lot of good base textures, especially grass, that you can just take and photoshop that wont tile like that--it'll save you lots of trouble, but you've got to open them in the reader and convert them to bmps first. If that sounds like too much trouble, check out the BAT threads here on textures, there is one with tons of links to good free texture sites where you can DL just about anything you'll need.

About the "black hole," I was referring to your #3, the big door. From the pic you just posted I now see it's actually a huge, dark brown wooden door. I'd still model the opening and set it back from the facade, even if you think it should be closed, because just putting a texture on it is not going to give it any depth. You can then inset a plane to hold a texture for the door, which you should make a bit lighter than RL to get some detail showing.

Re: the question of open/closed doors in day/night, frankly you don't want to go there. It can be done but you'll have to export two versions and rebuild the model file's day and night renders in the reader, if I recall correctly. Some BATters do it for making really impressive nightlights, but it's pretty advanced stuff. Doubtless one day I'll try it for a special BAT but I'm sure it's a nightmare the first time trying it, and it's not worth it for such a small detail.

If I were you, instead I'd do something relatively easier--model windows #1 & 2 and inset vertical planes to carry window textures and do a few nightlights instead. SC4 users are real nightlight junkies and you'll get lots of grumbling if you release a BAT that doesn't have some nice night glow coming out of some windows.  ;)

The windows are really dark so just pick out a uniform piece of one in a photo and use it as the day window texture, then create a greyscale version--in this case just a 50% grey image would prolly do, and load it as an alpha map along with the diffuse window texture and set the transparency between 25-50% to allow the nightlights to work.

BTW, that's a really appealing place you've got there--the courtyard looks great in the RL pic.
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T (wanna take a look)
Post by: kwakelaar on November 28, 2009, 02:03:08 AM
Looking a lot better, and Matt certainly explained the best way for you to go forward with this BAT.
I can only agree with gottago on his point both about the open/closed doors.
For the grass I would think you don't need to include it in your bat. If you just leave that part open and only render the paving, you can use any grass texture from the LE underneath it.
Also like gottago wrote, you should indeed try to model the windows and doors, giving your bat more depth and the possibility to add night lights.
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T (wanna take a look)
Post by: thingfishs on November 28, 2009, 02:20:57 PM
Thanks guys,

I have continued and have a couple of new queries. Gottago I have had a shot at the "black hole" and setting the door back from the wall a bit looks good (as does lightening it's texture). Although the wall itself now appears to be set back as well, and the texture of the stone is too dark (still further clarification needed, I haven't forgotten earth quake ;)), but it will definitely look a lot more real in the end. Kwakelaar I did as suggested and left the lawns blank, which worked well.
However there are some problems...

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FhtGzq.png&hash=238e579b581be07eb0ca9ef6eab68dda263c811a)

Now as far as the textures themselves are concerned they still look bad, even though I changed the brick one to a supposedly tileable one. And the orangey one on the right is supposed to be bark chips, I was trying it out as an alternative to the dirt. I'm really starting to get what's been said about the need to create non-repeating, whole versions, and I will get there. (I just found that part the most tedious, back and forth, render, re-render..., so I'm saving it for as long as possible) For now I am still just focusing on the general layout mostly. On the smaller lawn on the right you can see the extension of the concrete strip underground. Why? I thought everything under z axis 0 was ignored?
Also you can just see on the far left of shot a ridge between two areas of dirt. Because I grouped these objects before I saw the error I am unable to even them out.  Normally when something is wrong like this I have been "erasing" it by creating a box where I want to be erased/selecting what I want to be erased/compound objects/boolean etc. In this case, I assume because of the kind of object it is, boolean mode is greyed out. Is there a way to just blanket erase a selected area regardless of object type and without doing the boolean thing?

Cheers
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T (wanna take a look)
Post by: thingfishs on November 29, 2009, 02:03:07 PM
Hi again,
Small update. (mainly a question)
The underground concrete thing is annoying. It, like the dirt areas, won't be erased by compound/boolean. Both areas were created as lines, then filled via cap holes. How do I get rid of it?

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FwfLov.png&hash=4a82f88e8c30c3eb95df7c6bb8e7fd0d762cff6c)

The door is looking better. I've started playing with the textures again and though the pavers still look pretty crummy (indiscriminate use of dodge and burn), at least they're not tiling. Ignore that horrid yellow texture on the right. I'm not too concerned about the dirt as it will be almost entirely covered by plants.
Any advice always welcome.
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T (wanna take a look)
Post by: kwakelaar on November 29, 2009, 02:34:47 PM
Your paving is looking a lot better
I do not know how you can fix the shapes you have made at the moment, but it should not be too much trouble to create new ones. In the top view, draw a continuous line (with snap to vertex on) along the edges. Change it into an editable spline and attach the outside/inside line of your shape. Use the extrude command to give it thickness and reapply your textures.
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T (wanna take a look)
Post by: thingfishs on November 29, 2009, 03:22:16 PM
Thanks Kwakelaar,
I've tried to follow your advice but keep getting stuck at the same point. I've drawn a line (via splines menu with initial type = corner & drag type = smooth) with vertex & grid points selected in the grid & snap settings. Then I have converted it to an editable spline, but that's as far as I get. When I click attach (in the geometry section) nothing seems to happen regardless of where or what I click on. What am I missing?

-Also another question, when I had a go adding potted plants I found that most of them were out of scale with the courtyard, they were too big. I've had a bit of a hunt for other smaller props but it just occurred to me that maybe there was a way of simply reducing the size of a prop? yes? no? If anyone knows of a pack with some smaller potted plants please let me know.
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T (wanna take a look)
Post by: adroman on November 29, 2009, 03:51:16 PM
Excellent progress here Thingfishs... Sorry I can't be of more help.

Havva good one,
Adrian.
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T (wanna take a look)
Post by: kwakelaar on November 30, 2009, 08:32:06 AM
When you click on the 'attach' button does it turn orange? (or any other colour, meaning it is active). When you want to attach something in the viewport you should see some kind of 'bubbles' attached to your cursor.
As far as I can make out you are doing everything as you should.

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg28.imageshack.us%2Fimg28%2F7592%2Fscreen00002.jpg&hash=894f332fab7ed5fc52ff47218ef03cd60a0f0d2a)

For your props do you have the prop packs of D66, she has made quite a lot of different plants and potted plants.
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T (wanna take a look)
Post by: thingfishs on November 30, 2009, 08:59:59 AM
Hi & thanks,

well I noticed this time that even though I converted to an editable spline (via right click) the blue box with edit spline on it didn't show up like it has in yours.
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FO570d.png&hash=1202c814ae88f75458743b640c315e9bb2bdb1c1)

Any ideas?
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T (wanna take a look)
Post by: kwakelaar on November 30, 2009, 09:25:00 AM
Even without the 'edit spline' you should be able to attach one line to another. Are you sure you are hovering with your cursor over the correct line, the line you want to attach?
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T (wanna take a look)
Post by: thingfishs on November 30, 2009, 10:10:46 AM
OK,  I checked again and I was hovering over the right line and it still wasn't working. So I thought, bugger this (um, Australian expression, it means 'enough of this') and I deleted the concrete. I drew a new line next to the other line I had been trying to attach the concrete to, assuming this would be an easier approach. (I should have done this earlier, I just wanted to understand why it wasn't working) This time the line attached to the other line without issue,

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FSQbUg.png&hash=2deaa856f3faafc26fa4a250045651de0ad9f556)

however when I try the extrude command this happens. I tried other mesh settings commands as well as the cap holes trick without success. Hmmm... ()what()

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FFcOXS.png&hash=b1b41de85be468b457aa488a1c83a4f2f097a297)
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T (wanna take a look)
Post by: gottago on November 30, 2009, 10:23:39 AM
Hi thingsfish, and thanks very much for your comments on my BAT, it's really appreciated  :thumbsup:

The door looks much better, but looking at the lot, I can't help thinking that that looks extremely difficult--I'd certainly not want to do it--and I can't help but think it'd be less painful to create a 1 to 1 texture of the lot in Photoshop, where you can control everything (tiling, colors, scale, etc. and avoid the spline nightmare) much more easily, and then apply it to a simple plane. I'd like to know what kwakelaar says on this, but that would be my method.

Also, if you want a quick look-see of how a new texture looks, use the preview tab in the BAT rollout; you can do low- or medium-quality previews that only take a minute or so to run, from any of the 4 viewpoints.

And as for the texture problems, check out arroway.de for non-tiling concrete, stone and brick textures. It's the best free source of pro-quality textures out there.

Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T (wanna take a look)
Post by: choco on November 30, 2009, 10:29:59 AM
normally on a transparent extrusion like you've shown, the problem is likely that the verticies of the line need welded together.  more generally, when you see such a problem with an extruded geometry, there is something wrong with the original 2-D object.
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T (wanna take a look)
Post by: thingfishs on November 30, 2009, 11:20:35 AM
Gottago: Of course!!  &apls
I had dabbled with the idea of doing it in photoshop and then cutting it up into tiles as base textures, but had forgotten about it. As soon as you said it, it was obvious, and I've already begun (with ten minutes in between coming to terms with throwing it all away again.) Actually it turns out I haven't lost my work. I have simply imported an image of it into photoshop, and blown it up to the right size. Now I am turning the different areas into their own layers and just like that I will have hitherto undreamt of control.  :thumbsup:
Thanks a lot, this is really going to speed things up.
Oh & choco, thanks for your help, I started to look into your suggestion but photoshop's lure was irresistible.
In case I'm rushing into this blindly and am unaware of problems this approach may cause please let me know.
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T (wanna take a look)
Post by: thingfishs on December 01, 2009, 01:54:25 PM
Well what a difference a day makes. Gottago your comment was revelatory for me. Thankyou Thankyou Thankyou  :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Fortunately I do have some experience with photoshop and I was quickly able to catch up and pass the struggling me of the past couple weeks. It's so much easier and faster this way, and I'm able to fine tune where before I'd just go "too hard". So this is what it looks like today. For the first time as a whole I feel it's really starting to come together.

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FPKi6V.png&hash=08f88f367880bba4cdc05f6b9aad72f22386158b)    (https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2F5nuWz.png&hash=790c50698187c3b7f3b309e21a55b8a3f53a87cf)

Well it's what it looks like in game anyhow. However it seems this new approach isn't without it's own problems. These first two aren't too bad, most of the textures are showing, with just the back left corner grass instead of gravel. But I had to shoot quick because a few seconds later it would turn into this...

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FnLrm5.png&hash=27982b903b573241c76805c243d61b1a022378dd)


Does anyone know what's going on here?
It's not dampening my mood too much though, I'm very happy with the progress I've made in the last 24 hours. (Just please don't tell me this way isn't going to work ;))
This is, I'm fairly sure, the whole 4 by 4 block. I was glad there was room for the road at the back which will allow the trucks access to the crusher as well as the weighbridge (which I will install.)
Also the garden is very much a work in progress, I'm just trying different things & figuring out what's out there. Any plant prop pack suggestions gratefully accepted.

Hooray for photoshop!

Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T (wanna take a look)
Post by: mattb325 on December 01, 2009, 02:04:30 PM
Nice one!!!!!

Make sure in the PIM (or PIM-X which EVERYONE should use) that all zooms 1,2,3,4 & 5 are selected when making these props.

THEN

In the Lot Editor, hold down the control and up arrow keys to lift your "prop" overlays up by .1 or .2m off the ground.

Also - if you are using prop overlays - set the whole lot to have a foundation at a relatively low value - othewise your garden beds might dig in on slopes which will look awkward.
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T (wanna take a look)
Post by: thingfishs on December 01, 2009, 03:42:33 PM
Thanks matt, great info there. I haven't used the PIM-X yet, looks like now's the time.
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T (wanna take a look)
Post by: thingfishs on December 02, 2009, 05:09:45 AM
Thanks once again Matt  :thumbsup:,

at .1m there were still issues but raised .2m and everything appears to be fine. (Ignore the extensions of the LOT where all the extra trees are. For some reason the delete function doesn't work for me in the LE so I have to  either save after every step or try out a few things on the border. I am hoping upgrading to the pim-x will solve this issue)

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FhRczz.png&hash=178354b7df7a5d93146eff7467ca62076c12dc87)    (https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FmAOfP.png&hash=8565d1f84fd44e5ca6f435d5ea183f0e44e228c9)

There's still much to be done, but this all represents a huge jump forward for me. In a month I've gone from being completely intimidated by all this to being well on the way to a fair re-creation of the winery. ()stsfd()  Once again as far as the garden is concerned most of what is there will be replaced, I am just experimenting. For starters I am using too many packs here (about 8 or 9 all told- cp, d66, mjb, sg, bsc mega & misc, jes etc, the usuals but still a bit much) so I need to consolidate what I am doing. First the blue flowers will go (I didn't realise I'd planted blue ones until they flowered) and then the eucalyptus trees, they are much too big.
Also the car has disappeared. I suspect this is something to do with it's being automata, it was coming and going for a bit, then vanished entirely.

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FZm8ja.jpg&hash=4fe8e694e300e70e23eacb240f15908bb346fff2)    (https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2Fw2tjb.jpg&hash=4956ff60c96f1df26c43798ea23eeebbc7fd4b12)    (https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FBGvSP.jpg&hash=02190d277d0aa4296feae4dcd2711ef7270824de)

I have posted a few more pics just to remind people what it looks like in real life.



Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T (wanna take a look)
Post by: dobdriver on December 02, 2009, 06:01:39 AM
 

What  a revelation thingfishs !!

Like something just clicked for you. Excellent progress there

take it easy
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T (wanna take a look)
Post by: kwakelaar on December 02, 2009, 08:12:13 AM
What a difference, the ground textures look good now.
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T (wanna take a look)
Post by: gottago on December 02, 2009, 11:52:40 PM
hey it's like night and day since I last checked in here--the lot looks really good now  :thumbsup: great progress--you're over the hump!
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T (wanna take a look)
Post by: thingfishs on December 03, 2009, 12:06:15 AM
all thanks to your idea. Between finding out about making the ground a prop (thanks matt) & then finding out I could make that prop in PS, I now have the level of control I was seeking.  &apls
Also the pavers (which I think have come up really well) started out life as a shot from arroway, so cheers for that too.

Thank you Kwakelaar & Dobdriver, it certainly has come along. Additional thanks to Kwakelaar for all your ongoing assistance.  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T (wanna take a look)
Post by: dobdriver on December 03, 2009, 07:15:21 PM
 G'day things

Looking good,

i'm sure you've already thought about them, you haven't finished  off in in the area have you?

because looking at the pix they still look a bit sterile, perhaps a few more pipes and whatnot. also I don't know if you've noticed but the vats look very squared up. Is there any way to round  the walls onto the tops? or is it too late to change them?

take it easy
dobdriver
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T (wanna take a look)
Post by: thingfishs on December 04, 2009, 02:31:56 AM
Hey Dobs,
thanks for your thoughts. Wanna rephrase that one?  ;)

Obviously you're referring to the tank and/or empty concrete areas. I am going to do some more there. If you look at the photo there's still some half sized tanks and my brother's office (converted shipping container) to go. I have also been pondering learning how to make a prop family so I can create a few things, hoses, buckets etc, the kind of things that get moved around all the time, and have them periodically changing. (I think that's how a prop family works, or if it's not, whatever will allow me to achieve this.) I'm also going to have some automata customers & hopefully workers.
As for the tanks, you are right, they are too square on top. No it's not too late and I will have a crack at that.

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FC7jkO.jpg&hash=a9413c529e9a317fc2ea3ad397bcddb36f9133f5)  (https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2Fvd4Eq.png&hash=6762afe9bc785a8da09d277a3d95844441431d75)  (https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FFCCGE.jpg&hash=5cf8f3926b6aeac78674372bee3a0c7d4aef1578)

But today I needed a break from the winery so I've had a go at something else, some Australian street props.

I've made two versions of the standard Australian phone boxes (of the primary Australian telco, Telstra). These distinctive orange topped phones aren't as common as they used to be (because of mobiles) but they are still a very familiar sight. I've also made an 'Australian Post' post office box. I had a go at the half red half yellow express post one but it didn't come out right. The phones can also be placed in rows, as is often the way.
I think I will make these MMPs (mayor mode ploppables), and as one menu item that will cycle through the different options as you click. "Aussie street MMPs", to help give that Australian character to your towns. Any ideas for other things that could be included?

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2Fbr0BT.png&hash=8941cc4328ce70da78891d436863b7fd11eceff5)    (https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FFfqEz.png&hash=04a5c4c00f1913722a15854fb2447471670d1940)   (https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FogJ5I.png&hash=13de5435f13ce1a86cc4ef6c31868bf47ad6fef0)

The models are so/so but once I realised how little detail is captured in game I stopped worrying so much. Can I improve the level of detail being captured in the render? Are small non functioning items like these candidates for being done in HD?

(and in case you were wondering, yes, we do have lawn growing in all our phone boxes.)
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T (wanna take a look)
Post by: adroman on December 04, 2009, 02:42:29 AM
Excellent work, thingfishs!  :thumbsup:

Those look fantastic! they'd look great in a Street Mod...

Though, I think the roof texture needs a bit of darkening, to be honest.

Keep it up!
Adrian.
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T (wanna take a look)
Post by: joelyboy911 on December 04, 2009, 02:51:19 AM
Very nice. I think they certainly are candidates for being done in HD. Maybe you should tone down the red on the top. It looks very bright in-game.

And though MMPs are a good idea, you can't place them on streets, so that might pose a challenge.

As for suggestions, you could do some NZ ones...

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F4.bp.blogspot.com%2F_IjSQ_ADksow%2FSC9Q8LXSwFI%2FAAAAAAAAE4E%2FlSFn191l0c4%2Fs400%2FWDP%2Btelephone%2Bbox.jpg&hash=335492c8980572108e62527f0348a9b721e49d1c)

They have these sort of basic markings, but generally come in a variety of shapes and sizes, so you could do them on your model.
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T (wanna take a look)
Post by: thingfishs on December 04, 2009, 04:15:49 AM
 "And though MMPs are a good idea, you can't place them on streets"
Bugger, of course. I will still make an MMP version because often you will still be able to place them (in smaller towns when they're on grass etc), but what are the other options? Adrian you mention a street mod, how would this work? Thanks for your thoughts guys, yeah it is too orange. I will have another go, especially knowing I can make HD versions. I'll also do the NZ version. Can you post a couple more pictures (of the different ones) if you've got them. (particularly a booth version)
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T (wanna take a look)
Post by: dobdriver on December 04, 2009, 10:28:00 AM


Here's a few more postboxesto go on with


Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T (wanna take a look)
Post by: thingfishs on December 04, 2009, 03:30:29 PM

OK, have had a bit more of a play. Dobs I have created one of those postboxes, and this sort will most certainly look at home on grass next to a road. Also I had a go at the NZ box, although what's showing in game leaves a lot to be desired. So how do I do HD versions?

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FD3mM7.png&hash=11abdda1934f5fe6d5af274294d4b8a4b0a9f7f4)  (https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2F6Ubxu.png&hash=d32fca613278c94308496febefc60c6b86c1f944) 

I also thought of another addition (that will also work for the MMP version) which are the Australian road signs...

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FvJZn5.png&hash=2e9568295bd5e0d6c32cf9709ef22b0566185d0a)  (https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FypXhX.png&hash=36b2b104d243ba805d631650bbe4eaf6ee205723) (https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FUoMWW.png&hash=6cd6755a8c4d632e1f6c8c90b810eac16b6960b7) 

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FEpKK3.png&hash=96b62deff4d725b1c6b68b35f4169521d92f2336)  (https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2Fyhret.png&hash=b16e723dc7166e9be22e5c66ba1f254f6e580cf6)

Still look average in game of course, HD advice please...
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T (wanna take a look)
Post by: joelyboy911 on December 04, 2009, 05:29:12 PM
To do HD you need the HD exporting scripts made by SimFox. I can't remember the exact location for it, but  maybe you could PM him.
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T (wanna take a look)
Post by: dobdriver on December 04, 2009, 07:07:37 PM
is that bat4maxV2.6HD or V3? this is a link to V3

http://sc4devotion.com/csxlex/lex_filedesc.php?lotGET=1992 (http://sc4devotion.com/csxlex/lex_filedesc.php?lotGET=1992)


V2.6HD hides on the stex but but simtrop has been offline for a couple of days now.

take it easy
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T (wanna take a look)
Post by: Sciurus on December 05, 2009, 03:36:21 AM
Very nice props, but I think you should do it in HD ;)

Guillaume :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T (wanna take a look)
Post by: thingfishs on December 05, 2009, 12:55:32 PM
Thanks for the info there guys, and thanks guilliaume for the compliment.

I very much intend to do them in HD. I've had a play around with bat4max but it seems I need 3ds max for it to work. There is an installation for gmax, but it seems you have to export the LODs as .3ds which gmax can't do. I read about the tempest gamepack which, in combination with something else, can make gmax export .3ds files. At this point it was enough learning. Is this what has to be done? Is there another way? I have a mate with the full program so I could take these to him, but would prefer to be able to do it all myself, any help much appreciated.


(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2Fp0uZr.png&hash=e69334a1fc8f43203586e0308f38e3c4cbf20dbc)

I've continued with the winery. I've rounded the tops of the tanks, as suggested by dobdriver. The white, insulated tanks actually have flat tops so I've left them. I've also added my brother's office, the portable smaller tanks and my first poor impression of some winery hoses (the red tubes).
The colours/textures on the office are odd, I'll keep playing with it. Also the smaller tanks, though they look as expected in this first shot, when view from the next angle they seem to be as high or higher than the large tanks, almost as if they were floating (I've checked to make sure the model is flat on the z axis). Is this some kind of unavoidable optical illusion or is something wrong here?

The garden is slowly taking shape. I spotted cp's excellent cherry tree in a LOT under construction by wes_janson here http://sc4devotion.com/forums/index.php?topic=5590.40 and though they aren't eucalyptus they look very similar to eucalyptus leucoxylon & it's variants.

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FMtyJO.png&hash=e355e247136f29e140bea2725c7045b537176dc1)    (https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FpbMbg.jpg&hash=30e75dc03a4e5976736886cb20437a9a0d5d5307)    (https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FoQRwj.png&hash=4d57cf2803d1a0990e21424af64e28a9901048eb)


Because these are seasonal trees though they are disappearing when summer's over. These are supposed to represent gum trees (evergreens) so I can't use the leafless version. Is there a way to make just 1 or two of the 4 seasonal versions last all year? Also I presume not, but is there any way to lower props. In the case of the "gum trees" they are still a bit tall, but if I could just lower the prop underground I could make it right. Can this be done?

Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T (wanna take a look)
Post by: hooha47 on December 05, 2009, 01:50:20 PM
Hey thingfishs, the winery is really looking good.  There are some nice looking eucalyptus trees in BSC Mega Props JRJ Vol05 and BSCBATProps MattB325 Vol01.  MattB's are probably too big, but Jeroni has some smaller ones.  If you want to use the cherry tree, you would need to modify it so it's not a timed prop, or if you want to use 2 of the props, modify the timing on the 2.  I'd be happy to do that for you.  I don't believe there is a way to lower props below ground level.

Also, earlier you mentioned you had a car that was disappearing and reappearing.  This is also most likely a timed prop.  Again, you can either make it so it's not timed, or change the timing, and again, I'd be happy to do that for you.  ;)
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T (wanna take a look)
Post by: thingfishs on December 05, 2009, 10:53:52 PM
thanks a lot hooha  :thumbsup:,
really appreciate the specific pack recommendations. Thank you also for your offer to play with the timing of the props for me, and as far as the car goes, I am going to take you up on it.
The trees are an ongoing search. I looked into jeronij vol 05, which made me confront something that's been bugging me for a while. Of the 5 or so small eucalyptus models within that pack, which themselves range in size from small to large, even the smallest one is too big.

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FzPcSr.png&hash=4c4ff3cc27faa22800242536e29b270b712f59aa)

The thing that's been bugging me, I haven't done the winery to scale. To SC scale. The only measurements I used on the winery were the original width & lengths of the two main buildings. I entered this into gmax as is, and everything else has been gauged from there. I've read about the need to add about a third to game objects. Which brings me to the question.
Should I change it? I'm not going to go back and remodel the whole thing, but was thinking there might be a way to import it as a completed model and then simply increase the scale? Am I dreaming?
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T (wanna take a look)
Post by: joelyboy911 on December 05, 2009, 11:29:57 PM
I think you could leave it how it is. It looks good from here.  :)
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T (wanna take a look)
Post by: kwakelaar on December 06, 2009, 01:38:57 AM
Nice small street models there.
Just to clear a few things up:
Prop families, are props attached together in a family, and you add it to your lot for a more random look. The game will choose one of the items (from that family)for each lot that is plopped or grows in game. You can make 3 different colour variations of one house, make into a prop family, even when these grow side by side on one street you still get variation.
Timed props will show up at different times, seasonal trees are made this way.
For your street furniture, it is possible to mod them into the game. The game will then use your props instead of the normal Maxis ones. I do not know how to do this though.
Changing the scale is quite easy, you can rescale in gmax before you render. What I mostly do is rescale the height somewhere between 20-33% a bit depending on the building, and how it looks compared to other buildings and to the sims in game.
When I rescale I always save my model with a new name, just in case something goes wrong or I change my mind later.
Easiest way to do it is to group everything in your model and then you can use the rescale non-uniform function.
I don't think the trees look bad, I do not know how high your building is but trees can be quite tall, 15-25 m is not uncommon.
One small thing about your tanks, I think you should darken the white texture, it is now a little too bright in game.
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T (wanna take a look)
Post by: dobdriver on December 06, 2009, 03:51:04 AM
Hey things
the gum trees look ok, I mean I know your after the replication of your winery.
Look at it this way while your sc4 gums won't grow the winery's will, so they eventually grow into them. A  little forward planning.

I agree with kwakelaar about the white textures though, wouldn't need night lights around those vats.

take it easy
dobdriver
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T (wanna take a look)
Post by: thingfishs on December 06, 2009, 08:23:53 PM
Hi & thanks,

Dobdriver: I hear your point, the trees in actual fact are at least as tall as those jeronij models now. The photos I've been working from are old, but it's not everyday you have a plane taking overhead photos of your business. The reason I'm inclined to trap them in time is that back then they didn't conceal all the doors on that side of the winery. (and I want to be able to see all my hard BATting work!)

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2Fj48dQ.png&hash=a8e30bb2574289c19e8efc98975593d812498f00)
I was hoping for more this sort of effect. Trees that are thicker but not so high.
I know I'm a bit of a perfectionist in this aspect but I am a horticulturally minded guy and I actually planted a lot of the garden, so I really want it to be as close as possible (but this is making the job a lot harder)

Joellyboy: Thanks, I'm a bit torn between suggestions, I may just leave it as is.

Kwakelaar: Thanks a lot for your detailed post. :thumbsup: Cheers for the info regarding the differences between the kinds of props, I get it now. The street furniture can be modded into the game ;D - adroman mentioned something about this, it's a concept I am excited by and will definitely be investigating further. As for changing the scale it's even easier than I dared hope. This way I can keep using real world measurements and just convert it at the end. Excellent. I hear your and dobdriver's comment about the white tanks loud and clear, and will certainly tone them down a bit.

It's time for me to look into a couple of other things as well.

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FYamCE.png&hash=86d0fc468085167964ec7f5e93d6bf4457717961)

Red - Customer car park
Blue - Winery workers etc
Green - Cellar staff

My questions are regarding the traffic. There are two main traffic points (the areas circled in white) the customer car park & the access point for staff/workers etc. My thinking with the LOT is to ignore the road on the right at the back - maybe just put a wall along that side of the block. So the road at the back left will need to be able to join (at least visually) a street of some sort. At the moment my textures will be wrong. How does one go about making their roads fit in with the rest of SC?
And as for the customer car park, should I include this or not? (In other words should I transit enable both or either area?)

I have also continued with the street props, this time I made a simple Australian wheelie bin which can be easily turned into whatever colour scheme, the top row being the South Australia versions. I wont bother LOTting them until I figure out the HD thing.

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FWXxVG.png&hash=b8a2e47356212ed885d21a8a4106b1cf2864a3be)
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T (wanna take a look)
Post by: wes.janson on December 06, 2009, 08:49:46 PM
Quote from: thingfishs on December 06, 2009, 08:23:53 PM
I have also continued with the street props, this time I made a simple Australian wheelie bin which can be easily turned into whatever colour scheme, the top row being the South Australia versions. I wont bother LOTting them until I figure out the HD thing.

I've been looking for props like these!! Here in the Metro Vancouver region, a lot of places are making it mandatory to put your garbage/recycling out in these styke of bins. I look forward to seeing these when you're done.
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T (wanna take a look)
Post by: thingfishs on December 10, 2009, 11:18:13 PM
Hi again,

thanks wes, I'll let you know when they're done. What colour are your ones?

Arrgh... problems and more problems. I went to the winery for the first time since I've been doing this (I no longer live in Mclaren Vale, it's 50km away) and though I've seen it a thousand times, it looked different (certainly more grimy) What I've been modelling is Shottesbrooke circa 2004 or so, instead of the two rows of tanks I have used there are now four and a half rows, and my brother's office has been moved. As the concrete area wasn't really working for me anyway I decided to add at least two more rows. This is where my new problems began. The new tanks are a prop to add in the LE. This is my fourth or fifth attempt. Instead of the perfect render of tanks that came out of gmax, it comes up like this, part of some completely different building from who knows where.  ()what()

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2F0Gd2o.png&hash=4bf3a35646dfbe4bce55680dbf5e39ac49dd8508)      (https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FykRAC.png&hash=45ae162ce584fe726ed40520a3cc79f0136de15a)     (https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FhUudD.png&hash=cf295b5ca0669f3269d91b0535b953e9b183a1be)

I thought it must be to do with the LODS so I tried refitting them again, both automatically & manually without success.

1. - Does anyone know what's going on here?
2. - Just to repeat my earlier question, how should I go about making the gravel area fit in/connect to roads/streets? (at least visually), or just any thoughts on the transport enabling aspect of this LOT.

I have also darkened the whites a bit, is it enough?

Thank you muchly
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T (wanna take a look)
Post by: joelyboy911 on December 11, 2009, 12:01:45 AM
I've had this happen. You need to create a totally new scene, and merge the model into it, save as a different (but similar, obviously) name, and then render again.
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T (wanna take a look)
Post by: thingfishs on December 11, 2009, 12:38:17 AM
Legend  :thumbsup:
Worked perfectly... ;D
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T (wanna take a look)
Post by: Orange_o_ on December 11, 2009, 03:12:35 AM

For your graphic bug, install the TextureFix (http://rs212.rapidshare.com/files/60740584/ModelNames.ms) in the path: C:\Program Files\gmax\gamepack\bat\scripts\
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T (wanna take a look)
Post by: thingfishs on December 11, 2009, 04:56:16 AM
Thanks for that orange :thumbsup: (is that what I call you? it just feels weird addressing someone as a piece of fruit, even with all the bizarre usernames people have ;)) It's now installed.
And thanks again joel :thumbsup:

Well a couple days away at my Mum's as well as a visit to the winery itself have paid off. It may seem there's too many tanks now, but this still isn't all of them. In my mind this is looking a lot more accurate now. I have also added quite a few things, both BATted myself and from prop packs, to help add detail, but hopefully not too much. It's clear that there's a delicate balance when "decorating", too much and it starts to feel cluttered pretty quickly. The main area left to do is the gravel area, with various things against the back of the shed as well as the weighbridge.

I'm still trying to understand how best to deal with traffic. The gravel area has to be connected to a road as well as the front area, but needing to make two connecting roads will limit people's ability to place it. Should I just extend the BAT one row to the left and include a purely graphical gravel road that will meet back up to the same road as the front of the winery? Does that make any sense?

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FKtLFK.png&hash=36df1e10c3390e8592c370c54ce02073e38ffc2f)  (https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FicZ6Q.png&hash=cd5fec0823962ef4a458f65ca984f42a6c310818) 

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2F7IXWq.png&hash=71e89872afdec9034045aceab631d336c26f1186)   (https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2F3Apv5.png&hash=e04c9005d21356a42e2bc3a0120dc2c4dc50c0c3)

any thoughts?

(I just realised after I posted this that I forgot to change the main building in the LE, so this is still with the super white tanks, however they have been changed.)
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T (wanna take a look)
Post by: gottago on December 11, 2009, 05:12:54 AM
Amazing improvement since I last checked in! &apls

Only a few minor things I can see: the brick texture of the plaza is too pink and you could drop the saturation and darken/grey it out a bit. Also the gravel could use some tracks and muddy spots--it's too uniform right now, and it takes up a lot of space. And there's a long red something by the tanks that just looks strange--you don't know what it is, but it really pops out because of its color.

I wouldn't transit-enable the lot personally, as too many TE lots ingame will mess up the traffic sim; people like to do it for the eyecandy effects, but it has a real downside if used too much.
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T (wanna take a look)
Post by: thingfishs on December 12, 2009, 06:44:36 PM
Thanks gottago,
any better? (the tracks are clearly too far apart for starters, I'll fix them)
I've added the weighbridge and removed those red "hoses"
Is adding a carpark the same thing as transit enabling?

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FqfMhD.png&hash=4055306e3867d4db03f3b7d9bec1e4516e6113ab)  (https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FMLiJB.png&hash=b3ee1e11395de94bc6743f66ea7cc080d304061b)
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T (wanna take a look)
Post by: xxdita on December 12, 2009, 08:03:30 PM
Quote from: thingfishs on December 12, 2009, 06:44:36 PM
Is adding a carpark the same thing as transit enabling?

Only if you want it to be functional.  ;)
Have a look at this thread (http://sc4devotion.com/forums/index.php?topic=539.0) for info on Transit Enabling.
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T (wanna take a look)
Post by: thingfishs on December 15, 2009, 05:50:05 AM
Thanks for that xxdita, I have decided to just add car props, that seems like the best way to go.

But as far as the carpark goes I have a dilemma. I want there to be a carpark, but there isn't enough room, so it means having to add another row which results in too much gravel.
Hmmm...

I've also added some various bits & pieces behind the shed.
I'm tempted to say it's just about done, except for timed props (which hooha is helping me with) and the carpark issue.
Any thoughts anyone?

Also I've been building this on a landmark LOT... am I going to have to entirely reLOT this on an agriculture LOT? I want it to be a farming reward.

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FAiLFm.png&hash=31d8d19e506aa6477ead55074ac89623cb652567)

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FPBHnP.png&hash=a3ceed92dbf2f9c73628b080769dba90ea9e32c3)  

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FbgIy7.png&hash=190208000dbdc6134241cfcf660cf06b72ed5171) 

Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T (wanna take a look)
Post by: dobdriver on December 17, 2009, 12:38:43 AM


Very swoopy things, that is just coming along great. I see you've upped production a bit by the look of all them extra tanks. Let's hope the vintage doesn't drop off.

And just because there's extra don't be getting yourself too plastered :P

take it easy
dobs
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T (wanna take a look)
Post by: gottago on December 17, 2009, 05:50:54 AM
Hmmm, that's a heck of a lot of gravel on that lot--it's taking over, and the lot is fast approaching the size usually used for a minor-league stadium. Personally I'd remove the all the gravel strips: at the entrance, beside the line of trees, and just a small access strip at the back, and consolidate all the parking on the side of the lot with the tanks.

May not be exactly as it is in RL but that way, the parking and the pedestrian entrance can both be accessed from one road along the front of the lot, and the green areas will blend nicely with the surrounding terrain. As you've got it laid out now, two sides of the lot would theoretically require road frontage and it's looking a bit strangled by pavement.
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T (wanna take a look)
Post by: thingfishs on December 23, 2009, 04:45:09 AM
Thanks for your comments guys :thumbsup:

dobs: I favour the port myself, but as it's solely matured in barrels, the increase in wine tanks doesn't affect me too greatly. Actually this still isn't all the tanks that are actually there in RL, here's the google earth shot:

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2Fmzpmv.png&hash=34dbf7346b4f176e62f6bc5ce4202d34e4cbcddd)

There's 6 full rows of tanks, but I think we've got enough.

gottago: I value your comments and have agonised a bit over how to lay it out. Ultimately I'd really prefer that it's layout is as it is in the real world.
So I've had a go at softening the whole thing down a bit. Have I succeeded enough? Ignore the extra row on the LOT, it's just there because of how I started laying this LOT out, but soon it will be transferred to a new reward one anyway. (thanks to Barby)

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FcjZG8.png&hash=d0f226ec166620d772d65e642a2485013232b31d)

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FAgywo.png&hash=4b7d71aeaff1304a47a764a605c0e0e89f31bb5a)

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FVJSOf.png&hash=1069fa1234ea9afc21948910d54aa81ae07541fa)

The green strips on the perimeter of the gravel are blank and are showing through the base texture. I noticed I wasn't able to put plants on it in game, how would I make it so someone playing could add their own flora if they wanted, or just leave it blank. Are these green strip the way to go?
I have added one of our rainwater tanks and the small shed that accompanies it. It really is that rusty...

My intention is for this to be a farming reward, when enough vineyards grow (which will accompany the winery download) you will get Shottesbrooke. I'm hoping at a later date I can add a local bottle shop as a continuation of the reward chain. Is this doable? (meaning can I release this, have it functioning as a reward, and then in a months time add the bottle shop, or do they all have to be released together?)
Thanks for any and all thoughts and assistance.
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T (wanna take a look)
Post by: tag_one on December 23, 2009, 04:54:12 AM
Wow great work :o I love the model and especially the lot  :thumbsup: This will surely make it to my plugins folder.
As for the reward, great idea to add this to a chain! Of course it's possible to extend your reward chain in the future with a bottle shop. It's up to you if you want to upload them together or separately to the LEX.
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T (wanna take a look)
Post by: gottago on December 23, 2009, 05:09:45 AM
It's really come an enormous way since you started, great work!

The grass edging goes a long way to soften the gravel and shape the lot. Since it's part of the lot, the only way a user will be able to add greenery is in the LE, so if you think there should be more, put it in now.

Great idea making it a reward, too.  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T (wanna take a look)
Post by: Couchpotato on December 26, 2009, 11:19:48 AM
This looks quite good and like the idea of it being a reward.   Also like the grass edging to soften the gravel.
Really like all the trees and flowers :)

Not sure about the green tank in the corner.   It looks a bit out of place and not sure of it's purpose.  The
remaining structures look very modern and that looks like someone should be in there stomping on the grapes.
The saturation of the textures causes it to stand out compared to all the gray, silver and soft greens.   
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T (wanna take a look)
Post by: cogeo on December 26, 2009, 01:11:21 PM
I like this BAT, however there are some few apparent problems:
- First and foremost, the severe moire effect on the roof. Many BATters have this problem, and I'm not sure how you can get rid of it. It must be a combination of the roof slope, the texture "step" and possibly the material's (image's) resolution and resampling and/or filtering method. Maybe you should ask some experienced BATters on how to overcome this. There must be some methodologies or guidelines here. For example, I haven't seen this problem in ANY of SimGoober's BATs. Ask him (and let us know  ;)). I think increasing the step a little can help.
- The whole BAT apperars to use the same (or a very slightly modified) texture. For example, the roof and the walls are all of the same metal (or not?). This isn't very pleasant to the eye, I would say provide some little differentiation here, eg some little dust or grit on the roof.
- The texture on the tanks (silos) looks rather badly fitted. It's blurred, and this can be the result of extremely high texture resolution (or high U value in the material), or instead wrong map type. Try using a cylindrical type map, and check the "Caps" check-box (also click the "Fit" button). If this doesn't help with the blurring, reduce resolution (resize) the image outside gmax (in photoshop). Also the tanks look all the same (quite expected  :D) you can differentiate them a little by rotating the cylinder (or the map) around the Z-axis (each by a different angle of course).

With these small changes, your BAT could be improved considerably, I believe.
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T (wanna take a look)
Post by: Couchpotato on December 27, 2009, 10:24:34 AM
Sometimes trying to duplicate a picture's texture exactly in BAT doesn't work.   Textures can look unreal if they're too pristine. 
Some additional problems: 
#1  The textures don't match on the roof and one side appears to not be mapped correctly.
      Also, is that supposed to be a window at the back of the building? 
#2   The low wall & white tanks appear to not have any texture
#3   The in-ground object has texture problems in one view
#4   There are little greenies growing in your gravel.  Is this on purpose?
You might consider a nice sign out front
Here are some textures you might try... don't know if they'll work or not

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi127.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fp132%2Fmcauslandm%2Fwinery01.jpg&hash=2205fb4900f54cba2b294ab9c8893a1f2830e65d)

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi127.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fp132%2Fmcauslandm%2Fscratchmaps0144b.jpg&hash=f7793326bcd633fb106db35e710cde82d0d1848d)
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi127.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fp132%2Fmcauslandm%2FIndroof53.png&hash=f60d9fed590dcd28d7124d53255ca5b8567f73e3)
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi127.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fp132%2Fmcauslandm%2Foddroof16rb7.jpg&hash=78933e896fb20100d350e35780d59cee9c31bac8)

Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T (wanna take a look)
Post by: thingfishs on December 27, 2009, 10:48:43 AM
Thanks everyone for your responses :thumbsup:

I'm glad the reward idea has gone down well. But no good rewards come easy and I've sure been finding that out with the main building textures. Despite finding it easier with everything else once I stopped trying to use tiling textures and made full size ones, the reverse has been true with the corrugated iron. The texture I've been using on (yes you're right cogeo ;)) all of the buildings is a small tileable one. I've made a number of large non-tiling ones but they always come out worse with the corrugated iron, for a reason that I haven't been able to figure out. Here's an example of one of my better! preview renders today using a large texture. (it looks more like a tiling texture than the tiling one!?!) I will, as cogeo suggested, seek some specific help in regards to this "moire" effect (so that's the word, thanks)

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2Fk2O4X.png&hash=78330ec1c9ab02f46c6bf0c195e54295599aeaa5)

Thanks couchpotato & cogeo for your suggestions, I've given them a go. First in regards to the green tank in the corner.
Quote from: Couchpotato on December 26, 2009, 11:19:48 AM
looks like someone should be in there stomping on the grapes. 
:D
This tank really exists, it's just with the regular runoff of water on it's roof, it has developed a rust coating second to none!

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FLLpu0.jpg&hash=8acbb70c3b18f1b88e5735b1d19f5c6826975bac)

I agree that it's colours were way too saturated and I believe the green sides still are too monotone. I also agree that it looks a bit odd off in the corner like that but it is in it's approximate position. Is there a way to make it blend in better?

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2F3K2Ay.png&hash=8989158f841ce0df61c24ef2a9234270d288df05)    (https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FVKTeZ.png&hash=8a9b9a97f3f396e178e7bb512a3d21a7dcbfbc28)

I have also had a go with a new texture for the tanks, instead of the default maxis chrome4 I had been using. You're right about the blurriness of the tanks, I had never noticed that. Although I think I know now why it was happening. They are still blurry now, but to my eyes the third row back isn't blurry. If so then it's because the sphere slices which make the rounded tops of the tanks have been lifted slightly clear of the cylinders of the tanks below. (hmm, they are all looking blurry to me now, it's late I can't tell ()what())



-Just as I'm about to post couchpotato beats me to it, thankyou very much for your effort there, textures and all!, let's see:

1 - yeah the textures are driving me nuts. FWIW the main building is all one piece, so I've been applying one texture to the whole thing and then via mapping and the gizmo tool have tried to make it look as good as I could, but one side or more always pays the price. What is the best way to isolate the seperate sides of a single object for texturing? And yeah, it's a window, I keep forgetting about it... (I haven't done any night lights yet either)

2 - guilty as charged, you've got a keen eye, I will fix them.

3 - Yeah I know, I had lifted the weighbridge 0.1 but now have 0.2 and it seems to be sorted. However there are a couple of new patches of it on the main ground texture (in front of the tanks), which is already lifted to 0.2m which I believe is the maximum I can lift it and still place props on it

4 - Yeah the "greenies" are on purpose, but I may be taking realism a little too far. They are representing the weeds that inevitably pop up here and there, even through the gravel. But if they look wrong then maybe I'll pull a few up.

Thanks again for those textures, I'm keen to have a go. A sign, of course!, great idea!

Thanks everyone for their input, you only have to check page one of this thread to see what this building would have looked like without your help. &apls

 
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T (wanna take a look)
Post by: Couchpotato on December 27, 2009, 02:05:13 PM
Corrugated textures can be a challenge under the best of circumstances but when you try and do a solid building it just won't work.
You can either remodel the building using a spline method, or one where the roof is separate from the walls, or use a multi-subobject
texture method.   

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi127.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fp132%2Fmcauslandm%2FMulti_SubObj2.jpg&hash=ace989462f1ebb409f3ba3471035ed387cb1b73a)

Possible texture for the green tank
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi127.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fp132%2Fmcauslandm%2FBrnzCop04.jpg&hash=e18c046fa12abe752fa2ae7178131c60714c077f)
Edit:  after looking at your building reference on the first page, I'd leave the green tank out.
It's not part of the main building section, just a tank off to the side.   Just a suggestion  :-\
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T (wanna take a look)
Post by: jmyers2043 on December 27, 2009, 09:09:42 PM
Hello Thingfish

This is a nice concept. I once tried to do some winery buildings but they didn't turn out too good so they never left my HD. But I'm tempted again seeing how yours is turning out.

I think it's easy to make dirty rusty metal textures. Clean metal textures are harder to do and make look right. I've avoided them in the past. Until I got this one. It is tile-able. You should be able to repeat it without too much difficulty. It would not be a good roof texture. I'll hunt around and see what I can come up with.

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi148.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fs26%2Fjmyers2043%2FMetalPanel.jpg&hash=54cc50e1e9c4fed621bc0d2e439ad6a732e70165)

BTW - What Paint program do you have? Many here at SC4D have the more expensive Photoshop. I use the moderately priced Paint Shop Pro. I only ask because it's easier giving advise if I know your capabilities.

<edit>

I've had a second look at one of the pictures. I think the side of this building looks pretty darn good. And I'd not use the above texture on it. Maybe on one of the other smaller structures.

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi148.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fs26%2Fjmyers2043%2Fk2O4X_01.jpg&hash=42a221723075b0c2eeba4ec5d50cd72fdc1a1270)



Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T (wanna take a look)
Post by: thingfishs on December 28, 2009, 05:47:39 PM
thank you very much to couchpotato and jmyers for your input and in particular the textures :thumbsup: :thumbsup:.

Well I weighed up my options and it seemed easier just to make the building again as separate walls etc so that's what I have done, although the roof on the main building is a little sunken which I will fix (which is making the gutters protrude). I think the building textures are now looking a lot better, and I have a lot more control over them so it's much easier swapping things around. I have mainly used your third corrugated texture couchpotato, as well as the first one on the walls of the smaller building. However I think the smaller building particularly still needs work, there's too obvious a line between light and dark. Any thoughts?

I have also included a shot I took recently of the winery wall.


(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2F88YGW.png&hash=7fd4c5a5e64f7ab112b317c30a29174fb75bc4dc)  (https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FY5fMn.png&hash=a86c41dd0796fe3691f53a0e54c94d1eb01399b3)

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FgaWWy.jpg&hash=5d68f3b1fb9bd61bc19d669b343e3fb2007145b2)

jmyers: I use photoshop. I for one would love to see more wineries, I can't have a wine region with 2 wineries.
So certainly I encourage you to dust it off one day, but not before your fruit trees ;)
BTW if anyone knows of any wineries other than my one and this one http://sc4devotion.com/csxlex/lex_filedesc.php?lotGET=178 could you please let me know.

couchpotato: In regards to the green tank, it looks better with the texture you supplied but... I hear what you're saying about it being out of place, it's basically only there to fill up some space. I just need to think of something else to go there.

Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T (wanna take a look)
Post by: thingfishs on December 30, 2009, 04:38:44 AM
Hi,
I've played around some more with the textures of both buildings, it's getting there. Also I've played around more with the tank textures which I think are looking a lot better, thanks cogeo.

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FKnR7K.png&hash=aed5d72943ce7af641d13544940873cae1419795)    (https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FrzzD6.png&hash=528b0774246af79e728a7b49ad8c440336f859ca)

Also I've started to learn how to night light, but haven't got anything to show for it yet. I am very much trying to do a re-creation here, but am willing to stretch the truth a little for the game. As far as night lights go there aren't many. Certainly there are no inside lights on at night, and most of the outside lights are motion controlled. I've added a light fixture where it is in RL (just next to the chimney) but then realised the problem. The smaller building where the light is, is separate to the ground prop that I want it to shine onto. Can this be done, and if so how? Also what form of light, omni, target spot etc, would you recommend?

(edit) I will add that for two months of every year (harvest time, or as it's known in wineries, vintage) the whole complex is lit up like a christmas tree, however I know that can't be replicated (well at least I'm pretty sure I've been told it either can't or is not worth the trouble) But maybe it's better to do the lit up version rather than having just a spotlight or two?
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T (wanna take a look)
Post by: vester on December 30, 2009, 06:13:23 AM
A great improvment with the building made up of separate parts and the textures a getting closer.

Dirty up the road a bit. It's way to shinning and new.
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T (wanna take a look)
Post by: sithlrd98 on December 30, 2009, 07:43:18 AM
Just running through this , and while I have nothing technical to add...I have seen from start to now and I think you have done a very good job!The only real critique I have is the size of the lot (not a big deal at all!).  I like the props and textures used to accompany the buildings and am looking forward to seeing it in-game!   &apls

Jayson
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T (wanna take a look)
Post by: cogeo on December 31, 2009, 03:31:29 AM
Quote from: thingfishs on December 30, 2009, 04:38:44 AM
Also I've played around more with the tank textures which I think are looking a lot better, thanks cogeo.

I can see that they don't look all the same now. I guess you have rotated them as needed. But the texture still looks blurred to me (no details shown). Can you tell me the dimensions of the tanks (radius and height) as well as the texture's ones (width and height)? Also some tanks look white. Is this the desired colour, or the texture just doesn't show on exports? In such a case take a look at this thread (http://sc4devotion.com/forums/index.php?topic=9795.msg299375#new).

And have a Happy New Year!
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T (wanna take a look)
Post by: thingfishs on January 01, 2010, 04:31:11 AM
A happy new year to you too :thumbsup:

Thanks for your thoughts there vester, sithlrd98 & cogeo. :thumbsup:

vester: I will tackle that gravel some more. Something I've noticed but have been ignoring, is that the gravel in RL is lighter where the repeated traffic has been, whereas I've just been using burn in PS to make the tracks darker than the surrounding gravel.
Does anyone have any thoughts on whether I should continue with my current approach or try to be more true to life? and if so is the dodge tool in PS the best way to replicate the reverse effect?

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FFghuH.jpg&hash=8a5d694e2c5804e35f691ec0c058ca8ce09502cb)

Jayson: As for the size I continue to be confused as to what the right size is. On one hand I've been told a BAT is as big as it needs to be, in which case this is still missing sheds and other things that would extend it even further. On the other hand I've been told twice now that it's getting too big. The current size of 5 by 5 is my best compromise so far.
I would be very interested in hearing other people's thoughts about all this. When do you stop replicating RL size wise?

cogeo The white tanks are supposed to be white, I still intend to pick a slightly dirtier texture though. The tanks are 7.5m by 1.7m. The previous texture (a default maxis one) was 206 pixels wide by 233 high while the new ones (which are 3 variations of the same image - sourced from a photo of one of the tanks themselves) are only 50 wide by 101 high. I have posted all 4 textures in a zip on rapidshare in case these can tell you more, thanks. (I realised later it makes more sense to just post them here)

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2F9TKp4.jpg&hash=d362e85928c97bb958b5b7d0f91e7a6ac4c5e754) (https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2Ff4k0p.png&hash=777f932d37cb5f48910aef0454f26c40f48ba1b3) (https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FBR607.png&hash=1c5c510fad2349b91021a49dfd570338bc28e173) (https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2Fqj1Ba.png&hash=194669bd7bb2bb2bc19d14cd1663594f76d9867d)

thingfishs/Ryan
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T (wanna take a look)
Post by: jmyers2043 on January 01, 2010, 02:36:29 PM
Hope you don't mind if I drop in with a couple of ideas for the next time you make some tanks ...

Looking at my top view - I put a large short cylinder to simulate a flanged top.

Create a tube and use the slice function. Clone, rotate, and you've got a bolt pattern.

A connector where the pipe fits is made of a cylinder and a cone. 

About 1/3 way down I'll boolean a grove for no reason other than to create visual interest.

Near the bottom two cylinders simulate some sort of clean out valve.

And the pipe has (at least I think) an interesting shape.

A lot of what I did is hidden by the texture I have pictured here. Some details would be a great help to a tank where a 'clean' metal texture is used as they can create subtle shadows and highlites that play against the light.

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi148.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fs26%2Fjmyers2043%2Ftankideas.jpg&hash=8144f94c59c4ab75bb027e463d2aec86bf3a0a97)



Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T (wanna take a look)
Post by: gottago on January 01, 2010, 03:09:06 PM
Hey thingfishs and happy new year!

Things seem to be moving again here on the tanks and textures front. The new wall textures are good, they don't create the moiré patterns anymore, but are a bit too pastel green--it couldn't hurt to lower the saturation and tweak the color levels a bit to calm down the color. Also, you still don't have a uniform scale to the siding--the repeats on one side are wider than the other, and the roofs have much tighter repeats--not a problem between walls and roof necessarily, but walls should be uniform with walls and roofs with roofs. I didn't realize at the outset that your building was a solid model, and this would virtually guarantee that you couldn't control scale, but now that you've rebuilt it in pieces you can easily get them to work (check out that post I wrote a few pages back about scaling textures again, it'll make more sense now). You should also put a gradient on the wide roof planes to give them more punch and accentuate their slopes.

And I agree with jmyers that the tanks look too schematic. A cylinder-wrap texture with streaks and a dirty base from rain-splash and wear would help them a lot, along with some more details like he's just posted with his knock-out tank.

The tracks look good but reworking them with a light mud color using a randomized brush will help. you might want to muddy up the edges of the gravel areas to soften up the razor-sharp edges as well.
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T (wanna take a look)
Post by: cogeo on January 03, 2010, 08:12:37 AM
@thingfishs: your textures are right-sized (resolution-wise). They are a little stretched (but very little) so this doesn't matter. But the texture quality (taken out from a pic) isn't really good. Ie the blurring isn't caused by high resolution, they are the textures themselves who are blurry. So using another texture would improve the tranks' looks. And the texture doesn't necessarily need to be "dirty", or "leaking-like" or what, it can be dirty, leaking, rusty, shinny-new, galvanized, weathered etc, so pick the ones that would look the best in your BAT, it's you who decides how your BAT should look like.

@jmyers2043: thanks for your tutorial! Can you explain a little, what the "slice" is needed for, I mean what exactly you have to slice here?
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T (wanna take a look)
Post by: thingfishs on January 04, 2010, 04:33:32 PM
Thanks Jim, gottago & cogeo. :thumbsup:

I've had a play with most of the suggestions and, excepting the tanks, I think it's looking pretty good. Thanks gottago for pointing out the green tint of the texture, I think colour wise it's a lot more accurate now. I made a bigger version of the texture but it can be seen repeating a little bit. I've added a low hedge and sign out the front and have done more with the ground texture than is apparent. I haven't used a random brush in PS before, I had a go but it was turning out worse because I don't know how to use it yet. I've also surrounded the winery with the vineyards I am slowly creating (using couchpotato's de-textured props, these will be growable farms that will trigger the reward of the winery.

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FR5bpD.jpg&hash=0e81d8bed9b208f527c0f3edbc1796cf5a19f0f3)  (https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FCkOfL.png&hash=f086a740f407877ed4589dca46097657ba10c1fc)

The biggest problem continues to be the tanks. Thanks for the tute there Jim :thumbsup: Although the tanks you have created are a little different from mine but maybe boolean grooves will help with the three grooves on the side. For my and cogeo's benefit could you explain the bolt/slice section a little further. Fortunately the opening to each tank faces inward so that the central path down each row has access to the tanks on either side. Which means I can ignore them completely. :)
I've got a couple of photos to show the tanks a little better. My new texture has proven problematic but I will keep trying.

Quote from: cogeo on January 03, 2010, 08:12:37 AM
it's you who decides how your BAT should look like.

I appreciate you saying so cogeo, it's probably healthy to be reminded.
What I want the tanks to look like is the tanks at the winery. The big photo below was taken on my phone about a month ago so these are the tanks in their weathered state, still pretty new looking. The older aerial shot shows them from a near SC angle.

Any thoughts on how to make the top of the tanks like they are in the picture? (with a gentle curve covering the entire top and leveling out at the opening.)


(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2F1OPg7.jpg&hash=7392ca04d518a15312264be9c1ef449ffb61430f)  (https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FXdEvc.jpg&hash=d63412abb2d9a2f9af717f405dadaebfda9283b8)
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T (wanna take a look)
Post by: cogeo on January 05, 2010, 12:57:51 PM
The tanks again... The new texture looks rather stretched horizontally (or shrunk vertically). If your tanks are 7.5m by 1.7m (I guess this is the radius, not diameter), I would suggest using a texture 107 px wide (2*p*1.7=10.7) by 75 px tall, that is some 10 px per (BAT) meter. But values between 64x45 and 160x112 would work quite well, I think (with the former looking more "crisp" and the latter somewhat "softened"). Take a look at this thread (http://sc4devotion.com/forums/index.php?topic=3757.0), for some more details.

Also make sure the texture is mapped correctly (the wide side wrapps around the cylinder, the U and V parameters are set to 1.0 in both the material and the UVW modifier, and you see the cylinder in the UVW modifier is wrapped around thetank exactly - also check the Caps check-box). Also, in the material set Blur to 0 (this will set it to 0.01 I think). To check how the texture is applied I use test textures like the ones attached at the end of this post (I guess you can make some better ones, lol  :P).

Another thing you may have missed, is play with the light effects a little. In the material try setting Speculars to a nonzero value, and experiment with the Glossiness parameter too. And there is a "Metal" option as well (in addition to the default "Blinn"), but I don't know how this one works exactly, maybe ask a more experienced BATter about this. As for the texture (provided that you want to make metallic-looking tanks), I would say that you pick a "brushed metal", or "stainless steel" one, but preferably without the light/reflection effects imprinted on the texture (these should be generated by utilizing the speculars feature). Also you may have to darken them a little, as the speculars thing lights them up quite a bit.
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T (wanna take a look)
Post by: jmyers2043 on January 05, 2010, 06:46:23 PM
QuoteAny thoughts on how to make the top of the tanks like they are in the picture? (with a gentle curve covering the entire top and leveling out at the opening.)

Tank with a smooth top you say? The real ones look like they taper off to the side as well. 
I start with a cylinder and convert it to an editable poly
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.fileden.com%2Ffiles%2F2007%2F7%2F4%2F1237795%2Ftank_01.jpg&hash=4ff4ea9b81c4d0aecebc0ae6f9964bdb7e3b8dd9)

Collect the vertex of the top two segments and use the scale function to make the diameter smaller.
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.fileden.com%2Ffiles%2F2007%2F7%2F4%2F1237795%2Ftank_02.jpg&hash=cf0c1d8533b0ff0ba79f37b62b63451e15878a5e)

Move the vertex to the side and/or up or down until you think the top is the right shape. Remember you may have to move them up more due to the 'top down' view of the game
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.fileden.com%2Ffiles%2F2007%2F7%2F4%2F1237795%2Ftank_03.jpg&hash=566dbb3e6bf4b51590af664cf5e490267394a190)

Create 3 tubes and Boolean some groves into the sides.
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.fileden.com%2Ffiles%2F2007%2F7%2F4%2F1237795%2Ftank_04.jpg&hash=c685b4b80dcadaa87f2c557d193d8f601d8b5786)

There is a question about the slice function. I'll use the slice to put legs at the bottom of the tank instead simulating bolt patterns in my previous illustration.  

Make a tube – turn on the 'slice' and I'll set the slice start and end points to only create a 10 degree portion of the tube. This is my first foot.
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.fileden.com%2Ffiles%2F2007%2F7%2F4%2F1237795%2Ftank_05.jpg&hash=bc7445c0d5e837cbfee856f05e2d95016d46c638)

Clone the foot and rotate 180 degrees. Clone again and rotate 90 degrees, clone again and rotate 45 degrees. You now have 8 evenly spaced feet holding the tank off the ground.
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.fileden.com%2Ffiles%2F2007%2F7%2F4%2F1237795%2Ftank_06.jpg&hash=7afd7e491396e9d093eca3ed6fb2288ed07706b1)

This will be my clean metal texture. I hope the blue tint will give the tank a stainless steel look.
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.fileden.com%2Ffiles%2F2007%2F7%2F4%2F1237795%2Ftank_07.jpg&hash=94597c627654e96bd0791ae40056449ebc2a99eb)

I think I need to tinker with the top a bit more. But that's how I'd start the process. In reality? I'd try a couple of other textures just to see if by chance I can improve the look. I may add a gradient so that it's a smidgen darker at the bottom. Plus the tank needs more details like a clean out valve, possibly a lid or cap with a handle on the top spout thing. Some pipes going to or from ... things like that. There is nothing wrong with embellishing a bit to add interest.
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.fileden.com%2Ffiles%2F2007%2F7%2F4%2F1237795%2Ftank_08.jpg&hash=f21e342b52c10cde63f334d02248727fcb23bbee)



Good Luck.


Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T (wanna take a look)
Post by: thingfishs on January 06, 2010, 12:35:19 PM
Thank you very much cogeo & Jim :thumbsup: for some very useful info.

Particular thanks to Jim for going above and beyond here and creating a custom tutorial for me :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

I have turfed the old tanks and started again following your tute and already they are looking much more true to life.

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2F5YI2P.png&hash=5241e29dc43fdfa8b0f7a248e2f72b37bb84433d)

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FOT8xe.png&hash=502eef7927b066704eb5d6a6818c2272a540cba2)

However they continue to be plagued by blur. This time I am using 5 variations of jim's texture. (side note: it seems when you make variations of textures your changes either barely show up at all or are horribly blatant, finding that sweet spot in the middle is a real art)

This texture is 455 wide by 431 high which I figure to be plenty. I will reread your suggestions on all this cogeo and see if I can figure it out. Also how do those test textures you posted work?

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FVbKjU.png&hash=016f2c97354056c684d4be321a6767cd87d7dc9b)

Also this group of trees shows fine diagonal lines. In the LE I lifted some of them by 10cm until they all looked good, but in game the lines are showing again, what do I do?


Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T (wanna take a look)
Post by: cogeo on January 06, 2010, 12:56:28 PM
Quote from: thingfishs on January 06, 2010, 12:35:19 PM
Also how do those test textures you posted work?

These textures can help you determine how your materials and mappings work. All you have to do is (temporarily) change the texture (in your material) to this one and see how it is applied on your objects. For exmaple, you can easily see if it is tiled or cropped (and how much). The numbered ones are for testing multi-materials.

My suggestions about the texture size (resolution) were made assuming that the texture will be applied once (not cropped or tiled). So if you apply this texture you must see it wrapped once around the tank, with the yellow stripe at the top and the green at the bottom. After you're done testing, change the texture (Diffuse Color) with yours.

Quote from: thingfishs on January 06, 2010, 12:35:19 PM
Also this group of trees shows fine diagonal lines. In the LE I lifted some of them by 10cm until they all looked good, but in game the lines are showing again, what do I do?

This happens when shadow is cast on another model (textures have no problem). Also if the models' LODs overlap.
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T (wanna take a look)
Post by: thingfishs on January 07, 2010, 11:19:17 AM
Thanks cogeo,

I said I thought that the resolution of the texture would be plenty, then remembered you saying about high resolution causing blurriness too. So I changed the resolution of the image to 107 by 75 and then tried 160 by 112. I then tried an alternate texture, also reduced to 160 by 112. In all cases the images were set to 1.0 in both the material thing and the UVW map panel. In all blur was reduced from 1.0 to 0.01 (the lowest it seems to go)

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FKNAQI.png&hash=de31f96e7a6e81d29a410afc7c0e1152fd347c48)

107 by 75, with specular at 10.

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FGzFit.png&hash=b5fe5520feec5413b55cea1a818f86de83cb5b6b)

160 by 112 (I forget what the specular level was here)

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FE5vrw.png&hash=6a5bf4410b95d99b43b0b2ce0bcd2b76c429b766)

New texture, specular at 20.

I prefer the new texture, but there still seems to be some blurriness. It seems worst to my eyes around the bend at the top of the tanks, is there something that can be done to improve the situation. I also had a play around with glossiness & metal without too much effect yet.



(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FuK7Kp.jpg&hash=23a63e7b99e5dad94fa8277f8762f064dbef8b25)

So this is the winery now, with my preferred texture thus far for the tanks. I have added the small garden strip by the front door but because of the proximity to the building am unable to place but the smallest plants in LE, not the camellia bushes that are there in RL. Have continued to play around with the ground and building textures as well. While this is my favourite version of the window thus far, any advice to make it better would be great.

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FrCBVK.png&hash=111aa74d03862166d54e5d39ca74055a940fa750)

Also I'll repeat my night lighting question from earlier. Is it possible to illuminate the courtyard from a light which is on the small building, keeping in mind that they are separate props. I don't understand much about nightlighting yet. I've had a go but am unable to see anything in render. (they are prefixed correctly)
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T (wanna take a look)
Post by: cogeo on January 07, 2010, 02:47:25 PM
Maybe the texture(s) you are using are blurry in the first place. Try a different texture. Also I did you take a (big) texture and shrunk it? Resizing (shrinking) causes blurring too! Better crop an area from the texture (provided that the "details" shown don't look unrealistically big.

If you can send me a part of your BAT (a tank), along with the texture(s) it uses. I could take a look - but I don't promise anything. There are two ways to do this:
- Select a tank and then select File->Save Selection.
- In a new (empty) scene select File->Merge, and in the list displayed highlight one of the tanks and click OK.
My e-mail is public.

As for nightlighting, you can place a nitelite anywhere you want. It doesn't need to be contained inside the LODs. For lighting the courtyard, you can try Omni(s) or Spot(s). I think Omnis would work the best (also set the Attenuation and/or Decay parameters, to achieve a realistic effect).
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T (wanna take a look)
Post by: thingfishs on January 07, 2010, 04:00:15 PM
thanks again cogeo, :thumbsup:

I did shrink rather than crop the texture & it was huge, so cropping it did reveal too much detail. So I chose a new gentler version, have cropped it and still they are blurry. ()what()

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FYPv6I.png&hash=60823ef22e3f81a59f5d5cdb074ad3ad0eebbc46)
(Just the foreground section of tanks have been changed)

Why haven't I had this problem anywhere else in the project, just these tanks?!? Originally on simple cylinders and now on the editable poly versions, the common link seems to be roundness. Do round things have to be dealt with differently? Each of these tanks have a UVW map, with cylinder & cap selected, is there anything else to do?
Though I'd rather not trouble you I may end up taking you up on your offer there cogeo.

(I think this new version may be less blurry, I can't tell anymore, my eyes are going blurry themselves from staring at these things. How do these look to other people?)
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T (wanna take a look)
Post by: thingfishs on January 09, 2010, 10:30:41 PM
Whilst I bide my time trying to figure out the blurry tank & night light situation I thought I'd show you another of the ideas I've dabbled with since I discovered BATting wasn't beyond me.

This is Hungry Jacks, originally the Australian arm of the Burger King corporation. The name was changed because a small take away shop in my home town was already called Burger King. Hungy Jacks or HJ's is the second most prominent take away food business in Australia after Mcdonalds and though the Burger Kings available for SC appeased me when I couldn't BAT, now I have to have an actual HJ's.

Clearly this has a way to go, this is not laid out, I have just created the props and put them all together on a LOT to see them in game. I realise everything's too big but it is in proportion so it will be easy to rescale. This BAT has a grey roof plane but I hid it during the modeling process and forgot to unhide it, which is also why the different coloured strips on the roof stand out so much (both in height and colour). When I re-opened the gmax file it was corrupted so I'm going to have to add everything to the roof again. &sly

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2F4EOz6.jpg&hash=e4f10eea2d6a76df95a6af752a30791544bb8fc7)    (https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FXk9b6.jpg&hash=2d73f06dfda8565cea67189700e7eaa3254309d0)

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FyNxCC.png&hash=0f4e8ecb84568d1158cc65c2d22b99b500eec96b)  (https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FE5E1F.png&hash=bf8abb2353ac035bee8416e1c0558050486105e3)  (https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FPeDcE.png&hash=9c594796d6f4266b7a6a45f74faa87edeae180a3)

The angled part of the roof seems almost white despite it's texture which I'm guessing is because of the angle relative to the light source. Any advice on dealing with this?
Any other thoughts on anything else to do with this or the winery...?

Also I've changed some setting in gmax and now when I try to move an object the coloured axis pointers don't appear which means my movement isn't restricted to an axis. How do I reverse this?

Thanks.

(I started another thread a while back which turned into dealing specifically with the vineyard farms that will trigger the winery reward. In case anyone hasn't seen it the thread is here: http://sc4devotion.com/forums/index.php?topic=9668.20)
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T (wanna take a look)
Post by: joelyboy911 on January 10, 2010, 12:31:27 AM
It looks superb. We have Burger King in New Zealand, but I would still use this in my city, for sure. I'm thinking of doing something like this too, featuring a handful of McDonald's all based on ones in Palmerston North. There are 3 which I have in mind: One is a traditional style thing with red-roof and yellow details etc, however, it has a more modern McCafe attached at one end, another is in an older wall-to-wall building, and the last was only completed last year, and was built in a very modern style.

I think the only way to help the white roof situation would be to darken the texture, or to adjust the specular levels of your material.

I think tapping the X key helps the thing with the axis pointers. As for the winery, I think there's a lot of empty space at the rear of the section, or is that grass placed alongside?
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T (wanna take a look)
Post by: kwakelaar on January 10, 2010, 12:44:27 AM
This is looking very good, both with the new textures and with the parts that you have remodelled.
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T (wanna take a look)
Post by: dobdriver on January 11, 2010, 05:07:39 AM
the old google snoop cam..
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T (wanna take a look)
Post by: thingfishs on January 12, 2010, 09:39:24 AM
Thanks very much Joel, Kwakelaar & Dobs :thumbsup:

I was torn while doing the HJ's between the old style & the new one but yeah you're right Joel, why not do both. I've lotted the HJ's & with some modifications have turned it into a Red Rooster, Australia's biggest (I think) non-imported fast food franchise. They have nice red buildings and I am already liking how this is looking in my test city. The parking spaces are too small so I will fix that. Can anyone recommend a/some good all purpose car prop packs. What's the best way to get some realistic timed prop cars in the carpark?
I am also going to make a 2 by 2 version as well.

This is the first time I've actually placed one of my buildings in amongst others and it's pretty exciting. What can I improve with these?

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FzRsVK.png&hash=6e5dc33b34481bff819c44af2b5d87d18c4edb66)  (https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2F6qxog.png&hash=355572f95a862c02e8ef71d60f752bc8070a25de)

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FtDw6u.png&hash=0e3da6ae0fe862eba14b0911c0188a7c5291cc4f)  (https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FZCv3v.png&hash=81e01621447095c9ceca0aad19ceac4538a75b82)
(also the tree props on the red rooster lot are going into the building next door, they will soon be moved as they already have been on the Hungry Jacks one).

Thanks for your thoughts on the winery Kwakelaar. It's been a long journey that hopefully is nearly over...

Joel I eagerly await your Mcdonalds set. If you want I can easily just change the sign to a Burger King one and make two versions, I might do that anyway. Tapping the x key hasn't helped, does anyone else know how to get the coloured axis pointers back in gmax? As for the green strip at the back of the winery, that's not actually part of the lot and I'm of the understanding that the 5 by 5 section that I want will be able to be transferred to a new right sized lot (maybe via reader?)


Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T (wanna take a look)
Post by: cogeo on January 12, 2010, 10:14:23 AM
Hi again,

I did take a look at the tanks BAT and the first thing I noticed is that the texture isn't well applied on the upper part of the tank (the curved one), although the "Caps" option is checked. The reason is that this part originates from the side of the tank, not the actual "cap" (top). Therefore the "Caps" only applies to the little flat (circular) faces at the top. Test this feature on a simple cylinder to see how this works. My solution to this (there may exist some better ones too) is to divide the tank into two objects. First of all make a backup of your BAT, or extract a copy of the original tanks objects. Delete the UVW modifier and convert the object to a simple mesh, then select the upper faces and in the Edit Geometry panel click the "Detach" button (give the new object a meaningful name). Or you can add an Edit Mesh modifier, instead of collapsing to mesh. Then the two parts can be applied different UVW modifiers. The lower part will have a cylindrical UVW modifier (as before). The upper part is harder to map correctly, actually there isn't a UVW modifier type that works perfectly - other BATters pls correct me if I'm wrong. The planar map type is fairly good for texturing this part (to my opinion).

To further see how the texture is applied use the test textures I posted. I'm attaching a newer version; these have subdivision (tenths) marks too, so they make things easier.

Then, there's again... the texture. Your cylinder is about 8m tall and 3.134m in diameter, ie its periphery is 3.14159*3.134=9.846m. So, the texture should be some 98x80 px large. Now there are two options about the material:
- Make one material (for use in both objects). As the two mappings have different sizes, better leave the U and V parameters to 1.0 in the material, and modify them in the UVW modifiers as needed. Also, for simplicity reasons (easier calculations) crop or resize (carefully, it blurrs details) the texture to 100 x 100 px size.
- Make two materials (using the same texture). This has the advantage that you can specify different specualr parameters in each part, as they may have different lighting requirements. Also you can
I prefer the 2nd option.

I tried the "Metal" option in the material's parameters, and found out tbat this one actually makes the texture darker, so you will need a light texture here (like the one you have chosen).

Now "all" you need is to choose a proper texture for your BAT. You can choose a (larger), select a 100x100 area, and create a seamless texture out of the selection (I use Paintshop Pro, but I guess this is available in Photoshop too). This way you can get rid of the seam (around the cylinder). But this causes some blurrness where the seam would be (this is how the seamless pattern is generated, PSP extends details of the one side into the opposite one). But this is preferable I think. And as you are interested in making the seamless only at the left and right sides (around the cylinder) and you don't care about the top and bottom, you can use a simple trick: make the selection larger, eg 140x100 and create a seamless image for this; then crop the image to 100x100, so that you can get rid of the slightly blurred top and bottom areas.

I have chosen a different texture, which I have modified a lot, and I think it's quite acceptable. You may want to find and/or manuipulate a better one.

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg130.imageshack.us%2Fimg130%2F9653%2Fchloejan19461263319334.th.jpg&hash=2698627fcf0202c2e860c6dfa079f50e5f8a0fe1) (http://img130.imageshack.us/i/chloejan19461263319334.jpg/)

And some tips:
- To import the modified tank into your BAT, delete the (old tanks), in the menu select File->Merge and open tankC.gmax (then select the two objects), and use the array or clone and rotate tools to make copies.
- In order to provide some differentiation (for each tank) you can go to the UVW modifier and rotate the Gizmo for the cylindrical map, and move the plane around (XY restricted) for the planar map (you don't need additional textures). But in order to do so your objects must be copied clones of the original (not instances or references). So it is advised to do so after all modelling and texturing work with the tanks is done.
- You don't need to change all materials for testing new textures, just change the image file and name it TankMetal.png (then reload your BAT).
- The reason why the lighting effect on the grooves is not strong enough, is because they are flat, straight-cut notches. An alternative could be to re-create the cylinders, subtracting two torus-shaped objects, instead of tubes, this time. Curved surfaces reflect more light than flat ones. No offence jmyers (the idea is yours anyway), but I think this would work better.
- In order to get rid of the "materials getting lost" problem you mentioned in your previous post, check this thread (http://sc4devotion.com/forums/index.php?topic=9795.msg299374#msg299374). Moving the BAT into a new scene, will also delete all these BAT-generated materials and clean the list - along with eliminating many gmax/BAT bugs. I always do so before exporting a large BAT, as it takes 1 minute, while re-exporting the BAT would take much more. So I would recommend doing so for the winery BAT too.
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T (wanna take a look)
Post by: dobdriver on January 12, 2010, 05:10:27 PM


They look great things,

the old red rottler, that was the first of those franchise type joints we got when they started popping up.
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T (wanna take a look)
Post by: thingfishs on January 12, 2010, 09:47:07 PM
Thanks Dobs & enormous thanks to cogeo :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

While I'm not quite out of the woods yet (there's been some unexpected rendering/texture problems), cogeo's remodeled version of my version of jmyer's version of the tank is looking great. ;) Texture mapping can only achieve so much is the message I am getting from you and Jim. Now I struggle to see the previous problem as purely "bluriness", and now that it's nearly fixed I can't quite work out what's been fixed. (I know what's actually changed but visually I can't work out exactly what was bothering me, but certainly having clear definition of the join/seam has helped)
Although as far as I'm aware all the tanks now share the same texture (although at different rotations etc.), the two rows in the front are clearly different from the two at the back. The front ones to me look pretty bad while the back rows are looking great, I might just make them a fraction darker and if I can, shinier. Also the edges of the ones in the foreground are uneven. I can see this when I'm arranging the props and depending on tiny changes in placement the edges might be straight or they might be warped.
Huh?


Quote from: cogeo on January 12, 2010, 10:14:23 AM
- You don't need to change all materials for testing new textures, just change the image file and name it TankMetal.png (then reload your BAT).

Nice one, nothing like good lateral thinking.

Quote from: cogeo on January 12, 2010, 10:14:23 AM
- The reason why the lighting effect on the grooves is not strong enough, is because they are flat, straight-cut notches. An alternative could be to re-create the cylinders, subtracting two torus-shaped objects, instead of tubes, this time. Curved surfaces reflect more light than flat ones. No offence jmyers (the idea is yours anyway), but I think this would work better.

I don't want the grooves any more pronounced than they already are but I hear what you're saying and it's something I'll keep in mind for future projects. Thanks for all your detailed info & advice cogeo, it really is much appreciated.

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FMkzFA.jpg&hash=c71de63e15b82205d03c4c532ebf564183994822)

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FCMCwu.jpg&hash=72cf3455efd4ba970a6a2f8fb4faf78ce3aad73f)

Also here are updated versions of Red Rooster & Hungry Jack's. They now have close to right sized car spaces and HJ's textures continue to be a challenge.
As always, feedback is most welcome.
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T (wanna take a look)
Post by: gottago on January 13, 2010, 01:21:01 AM
hi thingfishs,

The tanks seem to have taken on a life of their own, and look much better--you're in excellent hands here, but they still don't have a true polished metallic look to them and some further tweaking of specularity/glossiness might help them. What you need is some fill light in the shadows (represented by the reflected light in the shadowed area of a glossy "material ball" in your ME), which right now just grade to black. Basically it would be good to get a strip of lighter grey to appear after the darkest shadow on the far right as the cylinders round themselves out. If you can't get it by tweaking, then burn a thin-ish, light/white vertical strip into your cylinder texture and rotate it so that it falls into the shadow and mimics the back light.

The fastfoods are fun and well lotted but can use some work. So...

Hungry Jacks: you've got to set your props (sign, etc.)  to cast shadows. The taupe wall texture should be lightened up, right now it looks drab and the first version was more successful. The texture of the flat roof to the left looks out of place--it's the same color as the walls; a dirtied-up asphalt color would be better. The roof junk should be different colors/textures than the roof itself and the whitish coping could be thinner and I'd give it a metallic flashing on top with a noticeable repeat. The window textures should be changed from the gradient you have now; grab a screenshot of some actual windows and tweak it a bit, and make a greyscale/alpha from it and load it in the opacity channel of your ME. Also, inset them into the frames deeper to give some shadow play.

Red Rooster: as above re: windows & roofjunk. The burnt orange wall texture is too saturated and again I wouldn't use it for the roof of the drive-thru; use an asphalt-like texture there, and dirty up the edges. Again, the white coping is too thick and could use flashing, and you need to have something going on on the whitish flat roof to the right--ribs or joints and/or a low-relief coping--right now it looks too schematic.

Also, you have a scale problem with this one; if you look at the ingame pics, the building is both too small and too large--it's about 1/4 to 1/3 overscaled in comparison with its smaller neighbors, and it doesn't look like there's enough building there to serve its functions. Make it bigger and smaller  ::)
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T (wanna take a look)
Post by: thingfishs on January 13, 2010, 10:10:42 PM
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FOFOp8.jpg&hash=b552ff263e971796ad06594760749230bacf22f5)

Thanks gottago for a raft of ideas. :thumbsup:
Okay, I am feeling good about the winery, it's looking just about done to me. I love the new tanks, although they still don't look like shiny metal (after much experimenting with glossiness and specular levels). I've added a vine fence which I think I like, played around with the roof textures, changed the window and a few other small adjustments. I am feeling quite proud of what I've been able to achieve with this.

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2F6kGY8.jpg&hash=49d751b77593bd96d29633114a5556f982f87b94)  (https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FqgD6v.jpg&hash=8bf1e7b274f5a1cddefe000623913e7ea5b035d6)

As for the fast food joints I have followed most of your advice there gottago, and they're looking much better. :thumbsup: I forgot to change the "coping" (learning lots of new terms here, oh & what's flashing?) on the drive through bit in the red rooster, but elsewhere both buildings are looker better for the reduction. Changing the proportions, particularly of the Red Rooster, helped hugely. As did moving the windows back into their frames more. The windows actually are photos of windows but do look like simple gradients. When you say make an alpha map of a window, what area of the window is black/white? I'm a bit lost with that bit.
I also couldn't work out how to make a prop cast shadows I had a look but couldn't work out which command was for that (I take it it's not called shadows)

How can you tell which car props are timed and which aren't? The ones I've used in the winery come and go but the ones here are static.

(edit: When adding nightlights, which part of the winery LOT do I add them to?)

Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T (wanna take a look)
Post by: gottago on January 14, 2010, 01:02:31 AM
Those tanks! $%Grinno$% I think your problem is your texture--gmax doesn't have much capability to render something like glossy metal properly--basically you have to do it for it and just paint or accentuate shadows, highlights, reflections, etc onto your textures to get the effects you want.

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi209.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fbb173%2Fzegadams%2FBrushedAluminum.jpg&hash=372e0b80582b67a3f347dbe57b99d888a49880cf)

Try this texture on the tank sides with a fair amount of spec and gloss, and rotate it so that it's natural highlight falls to where the light strikes the tanks in your pic below (SSE, or 270 degrees)--that's the view that counts, the other rotations you don't really see the tank sides that much.

If you want horizontal grooves, just paint them on with PS.

I'll post back re: the fastfoods a bit later...
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T (wanna take a look)
Post by: kwakelaar on January 14, 2010, 02:08:11 AM
If you are working with the Maxis plugin-manager you need to put "Is ground model" to true to get the shadows.
The winery is looking excellent, you can go on tweaking endlessly but at some point make the decision to move on to the next project.
I would like Gottago suggest sinking your window frames deeper into the walls. Now it is looking like the windows are glued to the wall.
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T (wanna take a look)
Post by: thingfishs on January 14, 2010, 03:35:03 AM
Kwakelaar: Thanks for your thoughts, "is ground model", cheers. Believe me, nobody want the winery finished more than me. It's taken a lot longer than I originally envisaged, and with university looming I really want to get on with other things but the tanks have really been holding things back. imo they were a too weak link in the project. But now with help from all quarters I think the tanks are finally looking like the real thing. Which leads me to...

gottago: thank you :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

That's just the right texture. When I first applied it things were screwy, but I threw away all the UVW maps and voila!

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FK1gV4.jpg&hash=bc4a5d2874e57175ebfbaefeb0eab95d9db25ce0)

Do these need any subtle manipulation to make them fit in better with the rest of the colour scheme? (maybe they're a bit dark because the winery looks a bit light by comparison)
Where do I put the night lights?


(edit) an update following gottago's advice below... :thumbsup: (btw gottago, by luminosity do you mean brightness?)

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FVKzbN.jpg&hash=17568efe26dff436288dd55beaf00f8e7ed1cf4d)
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T (wanna take a look)
Post by: gottago on January 14, 2010, 04:46:32 AM
The texture looks better, especially on the tops of the tanks, but you're right it's still reading too dark and brown. I just played with it here in PS and try this: desaturate by 50%, push up luminosity by 30% and contrast by 15% and see what you get.

Re: nitlites, you only have that one window so put an omni inside above and behind it (you'll need a light-colored floor slab inside to give it something to reflect off of and might have to enclose it in a "room" to prevent light leaks), and why not a target spot or omni beneath both the open roofs to the right of the tanks to give some interest elsewhere on the lot.

About the fastfoods, coping is the wider, flat piece on top of a parapet, or low wall surrounding the roof of the building, which keeps out moisture. Its usually sheathed in sheets of zinc or some other metal. In RL those white tops would be capped with a metal coping. Flashing is a metal strip put between a roof and a wall, or above a window or door, to prevent moisture leaks (I actually misused the term in my last post).

Also, watch out with those parapets--on the RR, one end is jutting out to the left at back, and on HJ they don't all look to have the same width.

The windows on the RR still look like gradients but I assume they are supposed to have shades--if that's what's going on, I'd darken the upper part of the glass below the white shades to kill the gradient look and make it more readable.

And the roofjunk still looks too much like the asphalt roofing; try a few dirty metal textures on them to make them pop more and give them some variety.

PS. Also on HJ the windows are too big and too high--in comparison to the cars they look way overscaled and the frames too big. Maybe make them thinner and double them up
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having an Aussie B.A.T (wanna take a look)
Post by: manchou on January 16, 2010, 03:51:44 AM
Hi thingfish !
I like your creations ! It's wonderful ! But be carful tour BATs and props haven't got any shade ;) ! I don't now if it is normal !

A+

manchou
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having an Aussie B.A.T (wanna take a look)
Post by: puresim on January 17, 2010, 05:33:48 AM
Hi thingfish,

Just wanted to say that I think your winery is looking great! I've only just found this so quickly skimmed through the pages, but it's obvious that you're dedicated into making this perfect. Seeing your photos of the real building and then the screenshots of your SC4 building is very interesting. I think it looks very realistic :thumbsup:

Looking forward to this being released!
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having an Aussie B.A.T (wanna take a look)
Post by: thingfishs on January 18, 2010, 07:21:51 AM
Thank you very much puresim & manchou :thumbsup: (and thanks once again gottago, cogeo & jmyers for your significant contributions during the battle of the tanks... we won! ;) ;D)


Well it's been quite the journey but I think it's just about done, though I've still got some night light issues to resolve. There's still some timed prop work to be done also but visually, in daytime at least, I am happy with it. It might not be apparent but I've spent quite a bit of time fine tuning many small details since the last update. I've also added my late dog Elle, flat out asleep on the lawn where she spent so much time back in the day. She will be a timed prop as well.

manchou: I've finally learnt how to make the props cast shadows so it should be looking OK now. As for shade being normal, I had to go and check but yeah, it's at the winery too.

puresim: I appreciate you taking the time (even if it was a quick skim), to evaluate my recreation and I'm glad you think it's living up to the original.

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FaLTwl.jpg&hash=edd3754c1d3dc1fc11ce98f18e6720125d4eda72)

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FiYMJE.jpg&hash=2fe94cf4d3edf3c025fbcca98d91f17a13b89201)

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FvVQei.jpg&hash=097d40b1bcf040a1a706788c3431e79f2ce2dd8c)



(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FExEiA.png&hash=09700d7ab38f1355b2ebc446b0b8fcf161d985d3)


There's still problems though. I have finally got night lights to show up in my render, previously I was attaching it to the small building where it is in RL shining over the courtyard but it wouldn't show up. Then it occurred to me to put it in the ground prop itself and I was moving again. However they aren't showing up in game. I've always been a daytime only player of SC4 so I never bothered about the night light update. Now I have, I have updated the game and CC buildings that were previously dark now had light. But not the winery. ()what()

Any ideas of likely causes?


Title: Re: Thingfishs is having an Aussie B.A.T (wanna take a look)
Post by: manchou on January 18, 2010, 09:36:10 AM
Thanks to your anwers ! :) I really like your LOT ! I'm impatient to see your LOT finish !  &apls  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having an Aussie B.A.T (wanna take a look)
Post by: cogeo on January 18, 2010, 12:30:57 PM
Quote from: thingfishs on January 18, 2010, 07:21:51 AM
Now I have, I have updated the game and CC buildings that were previously dark now had light. But not the winery. ()what()

Any ideas of likely causes?

Maybe set the Light property in the prop exemplar to 1 (=True) ?.
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having an Aussie B.A.T (wanna take a look)
Post by: thingfishs on January 19, 2010, 01:38:38 AM
The lights are on!! &idea

Thank you cogeo :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having an Aussie B.A.T (wanna take a look)
Post by: thingfishs on January 20, 2010, 11:00:59 PM
Thanks manchou, I'm glad you like it, and it's nearly finished.

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FUgEAm.jpg&hash=ef5b14e5ebe41d97657a82901693a2d19480be3b)

I have finished with the day mode but still have the timed props to deal with (the picnic on the lawn, workers in the winery, my dog, cars, tractor etc) Unfortunately my guy that's helping me with the timed props is currently unwell so I may have to learn to do that stuff as well, I'm a bit intimidated by number work. I've slowly been figuring out how to do nightlighting but it's been frustrating. I've mostly been having trouble with the cellar door window (the small building), trying to have a good looking low light. I'm not too fussed about the night lights as I'm pretty much a daytime player, but I'd still like to get them a bit better if I can. Another thing I struggled with was how to make a small red (for eg) light that might be on the side of some machinery or something. I know how to make it red, just not to make a convincing very small light. Any thoughts on any of this?

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FdJaXf.jpg&hash=7b255ff1335944e17e5d5e30765537e941f29454)  (https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FMvphV.jpg&hash=64224880d04aa80e16c8da89568f5bec0c8e4564)  (https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FODhMo.jpg&hash=11fce00cb7a1c9a82915dbdea9dba78ac73c9c32)

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FUQx0V.jpg&hash=83a4d460573ac7e0cc76c1ac2eed792078b2862d)

Title: Re: Thingfishs is having an Aussie B.A.T (wanna take a look)
Post by: gottago on January 21, 2010, 02:24:09 AM
Hi thingfishs,

Re: the nitelites, in general they need to be brighter--right now they're too subtle to really stand out and be read properly, but the colors of the lights themselves look spot on. The small window in particular is way too subtle to notice if you're not looking for it.

For the red lights--do you mean something like a bare bulb? I've never tried something like that but you might want to treat it like neon: make the bulb and set the red texture to be self-illuminating, then point a target spot at it with a red light, and tweak the light cone and falloff to make it glow properly.
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: Diggis on January 21, 2010, 04:23:29 AM
The light on the ground also needs to light the building some what.   At the moment you have a large pool on the ground with no light on the building.
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: thingfishs on January 21, 2010, 07:52:06 AM
Thanks for your thoughts there gottago & Diggis.

Diggis: The light on the ground comes from a sensor light which is on the corner of the cellar door (small building) This is where I have a target spot. I'm not clear on what you're suggesting, are you saying I need to position the current light differently so that it catches some of the building or that I should have additional lights shining on the building?

gottago: I'm talking about the small kind of lights you have on machinery that tell you that it's on (for eg.). On second thought they're probably too small to be seen from distance anyway. As for the cellar window being too dim, I struggled a lot with the omni inside when it was brighter, it just seemed to produce a blanket wash of light that looked really poor. Then I tried to add some objects inside to break it up a bit but that just resulted in odd shadows. Light is a curious thing to play with, I'm still getting my head around the fact that it's not the light but what the light hits that makes the effect.

Also now that the winery is just about complete I thought I should show the vines here that will trigger the winery reward. Although they are still being worked on I am almost happy with them.

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2F1krAy.jpg&hash=c9fd753df3bfb1b2c5662b72d4520eef6fcdfb4b)  (https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FGooer.jpg&hash=8c472a0b036675e017950535f9857554b938a139)
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: gottago on January 21, 2010, 08:45:44 AM
To liven up night windows you can either use a photo from RL with stuff going on inside and set transparency a bit lower or use a plain grey-blue texture and raise transparency and put a "busy" texture on the floor. Some people use old posters or even pics of old master paintings, and Prepo made a good set of textures to use like this that represent schematic furniture that IIRC is on the stex, or maybe posted here somewhere.

Re: what Diggis pointed out: what you need is another target spot to add a light wash across the wall below the light source; right now the pool of light looks disembodied and you don't know its source.

The vines look good but the green is bright and will get pretty aggressive when you lay out a big field of them. Try mixing in some darker, muddier greens and even darkish grey/ochre in your leaf textures. Also, you've got tiling going on in the rows, so flip some of your models.
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: cogeo on January 21, 2010, 09:05:17 AM
Or use the good old ( :P) Maxis windows. I think they would be very acceptable (and much easier to implement).
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: gottago on January 21, 2010, 11:37:28 AM
Quote from: cogeo on January 21, 2010, 09:05:17 AM
Or use the good old ( :P) Maxis windows. I think they would be very acceptable (and much easier to implement).

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi209.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fbb173%2Fzegadams%2FBlueWindowTexture-z3.jpg&hash=9c97113de452c38c5b45f73942e4d260191f3a8b) (https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi209.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fbb173%2Fzegadams%2FGreenWindowTexture-z3.jpg&hash=2d3ab98f68adefc4c3924dea72c3700197a86350) (https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi209.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fbb173%2Fzegadams%2FBeigeWindowTexture-z3.jpg&hash=4d0d0da270ebb01977d7dd82a84eee9aabe35674) (https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi209.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fbb173%2Fzegadams%2FNeonRedWindowTexture-z3.jpg&hash=51c46afa851fa3b2fa957ac9f7cc819ae4ed3f21)

Here are all the Maxis night windows--which would you recommend?
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: cogeo on January 21, 2010, 01:01:07 PM
I didn't make any suggestion about the texture selection (btw I think both the beige and the blue ones would look OK - there are extra sets available on the STEX too). By "Maxis windows" I just meant the method (of using those "nitewindow.." objects. Some BATters regard this method as too simplistic or outdated. They suggest using a semi-transparent texture instead. But this requires adding something inside the building too (to look through the semi-transparent glass). I think this method is useful only for large glass buildings. If the windows are small, the player will hardly see anything inside the building though.

So I didn't want to suggest a texture here, just wanted to let thingfishs be aware of the option.
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: thingfishs on January 24, 2010, 09:52:37 AM
Okay, well a couple of days battling with nightlighting later this is what I've come up with. Thank you gottago & cogeo for your responses. (btw with those four maxis textures what's the thinking with that last red one?)

I wasn't happy with the maxis mode on the cellar door but it worked great for the smaller windows along the top of the main building's roof (I used blue). I have played around with a lot of lights and got myself quite tangled up at times. When things got too bright around the tanks (which it might still be) it took a while to find the culprit sources. Most of the year the winery is pretty dark at night but in vintage it is, in my brother's words, lit up like a christmas tree. More so than it is in my version. I just found that when levels were increased beyond this point that pure white was the result.

Does anyone have any advice on achieving a more consistent evenly lit effect over a complicated area like the tanks whilst maintaining some detail? Any other thoughts with any of this?

Also something odd has happened to the roof texture of the entrance building (the tiny one joining the small and big buildings) This occurred when I "booleaned" out a cavity in it.
The other thing that stands out to me is the colour of the light, it seems too white. Many of these lights are actually a very light yellow but it's not coming through, should I just increase it? Is there a more appropriate colour to use?


(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FTBxm4.jpg&hash=4c345ad5943dbd1b39f6668edd8423def8f33916)     (https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FDUhQt.jpg&hash=1c2c8c34ae1eb983044d38c3cf64c59978d42928)


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Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: puresim on January 24, 2010, 11:36:33 AM
I think that looks really beautiful. Maybe the white is a bit strong on the tanks and on the main building where it's facing the tanks, but the overall effect works for me.
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: gottago on January 24, 2010, 12:16:33 PM
Boolean subtraction will occasionally ruin a piece of geometry and make it unusable like that. Either recreate the piece and try it again or build the roof and the hole out of 2 rectangular splines, attach multi and then extrude (preferable, but more time-consuming).

As for the lights around the tanks, the intensity is too high and the highlights are burning out white, this is why the yellow tint isn't showing up. Drop it down and play with falloff. Also, there's a checkbox for inverse square which mimics the inverse square rule for the intensity of light from its source point which you should use--this is why you are getting undiminished pure white light all the way to the bottom of the slim shed  linking the 2 main buildings.
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: cogeo on January 24, 2010, 12:44:15 PM
Well, it's quite common to say "good for a first try", however this one is not good enough, I'm afraid:

- First of all, as other members said, the lighting in general is too bright. Only commercial properties and industrial installations (in places) are lit like this. You have to reduce intensity, and I mean a lot.
- Another thing I don't like is the transition between lit and unlit is too steep. Maybe increase the difference between hotspot and falloff.
- Apparently you have used spot lights, and this looks quite strange, as your BAT lacks light sources, so the light appears to come from nowhere (esp on the tanks). I made a set of warehouses in the past, and I had to BAT a special "floodlight" prop for this (to achieve a more realistic-looking result). But spotlights may not be the most appropriate choice in this case. Try omnilights, and of course set attenuation and/or decay to the proper values.
- Omnilights are better for "general" and "ambient" lighting; I use these the most. Here are some examples (http://sc4devotion.com/forums/index.php?topic=4574.msg145024#msg145024) (I wouldn't call this a "tutorial"). However yor winery is supposed to be out in the fields, so there wouldn't be "ambient" lighting there. But you can limit this to smaller parts of your BAT (from lights supposed to be inside the lot).
- The small windows on the roof barely look lit. Have you reduced the Intensity in the BAT tab? Otherwise this may be due to colour (the metal is somehow "bluish" too, so there's no enough contrast). Maybe try the beige texture (or another one, dl-ed from the STEX).
- Check the "Cast Shadows" check-box for all of your lights (default:off!), if you haven't already.

I'll recur to the... tanks thing again. There's something that doesn't look very good, the cap looks much brighter (like made of a different material). If this was not intentional, it may be caused by the way the "speculars" work. It's curved, and thus reflects more light. If you have applied the same meterial to both the cap and the periphery, try making a copy of the material, and apply the copy to the cap, then modify the copy (reduce speculars if it's Blinn, increase if Metal) so that you get a more balanced look. I have also attached a modified version of gottago's texture (reduced size, sharpened, increased brightness a little). Try it once more please.

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg693.imageshack.us%2Fimg693%2F3787%2Fbrushedaluminum100.jpg&hash=edae935cb09bc3cacfe5151cd76686e3bf7c757f)
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: dobdriver on January 24, 2010, 07:29:55 PM

Hey cogeo he's got full cutoffs on his non existent spotlights, so it's 95% down and only 5% wasted up, instead of the usual 65% down and 35% wasted up not including reflection. Which means one can use 40% less wattage for the same amount of downlight, though I might add things forgot to change the 500w mercurys for 250w. This also means you pay less to the electricity company and you help to preserve the night sky for your children. Have you been to Hong Kong? Why one struggles to even see Venus and that's -4.4 magnitude and nothing else but an orange glow.

Nice going things.

take it easy
dobdriver
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: thingfishs on January 24, 2010, 10:31:39 PM
Thanks puresim, gottago, cogeo & Dobs :thumbsup:

A few things: There are light sources in the BAT, I have circled them in the photo below. This is as they are in RL, up on 4 metre high poles above the tanks. As for being too light this is still much darker than the winery actually is in vintage time (which is the time of year I've decided to recreate) As I said the onset of pure white made me tone things down but I'm still aiming for more light, but just not so intense. However I do not have them aimed properly, hopefully this photo will explain things.

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FDVTvo.png&hash=3f562d578b62e0eec7f45b3716b8225de6d17e4a)
(EDIT: just to clarify, these arrows show the setup in RL not as I have them in game. In game I setup the target spots facing downwards but a phone call today to my brother taught me the correct layout. With that in mind are spots or omnis what I want here? I gather if it's omnis I would have to create some kind of shield to make them directional but as these lights are up in the sky there doesn't seem to be anywhere to hide such a shield...?)

Here the lights above the tanks are circled with arrows denoting their direction. The pole circled in green has two high watt regular lights facing towards and away from the winery. The poles circled in red have one high watt halogen lamp each facing down the gangway. Trust me when these are all on in Feb-April the overall effect is far more lit up then I have here.

cogeo:
Quote from: cogeo on January 24, 2010, 12:44:15 PM
of course set attenuation and/or decay to the proper values.]
Huh? There is no of course for me, I've never done any of this before and haven't yet used attenuation or decay settings. Thanks for the modified texture, I will give it a go. In all photos I have of the tanks the cap is much brighter than the sides (due to reflection) so the current effect works for me. In regards to the maxis lit windows yeah I reduced the intensity but too far. These windows are only lit by lights below in the building and certainly aren't as bright as a regular lit window but are brighter than I have them.
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: gottago on January 25, 2010, 02:23:21 AM
Hi thingfishs,

It would help a lot to know what kind of lights you're using around the tanks. I agree with cogeo that omnis would probably be best here.

(If you're using spots, you'll also have to set the shapes and angles of the lightcones, and falloff and hotspot variables.)

You have three important parameters to deal with (as cogeo noted, always check "cast shadows"; "exclude" doesn't work in gmax). First is the multiplier, which is intensity, the most basic variable. The second is obviously the rgb values which color the light.

The third is actually two different variables, found in the "attenuation parameters" rollout, where you can fine-tune how far the light reaches and how intense it is over distance. "Near and far attenuation" are pretty self-explanatory: they allow you to control the intensity of light over a set number of meters--the defaults are set extremely high--no near attenuation (aka "falloff') will occur until 40 meters (!) Far attenuation won't begin until 80m, and the light won't fully dissipate until 200m.

The other major variable there is 'Decay." It allows you to mimic the real physics of light, giving you a falloff that drops using the inverse square law of light, or a simple linear falloff (inverse). The "start" variable there just sets the distance away from the light when decay begins.

As I understand the relationship between near/far attenuation and decay, you can't use both--but surely someone here will correct me if I'm wrong. If you're using n/f attenuation then click the "use' check boxes beneath them. To use decay, you choose which you want in the drop-down menu and leave the "use" boxes unchecked. If you use both, apparently weird things happen.

Essentially "Decay" is a kind of autopilot that sets the light to act as it would in RL; using "near and far attenuation" allows you to customize lighting effects that may be more what you want but that are not "natural." You can make things really intensely lit for a certain distance, then rapidly falloff, for example.

Thing is, there really aren't any hard and fast rules or formulas for choosing to use near/far attenuation or decay, or what values to use with them, and how high/low to set intensity. It's all trial and error, tweaking and previewing. Obviously, though, you can start with deciding how far the light should reach. I'll mention again the white strip of light at the bottom of the slim transitional shed linking the 2 main buildings. This area should be faintly lit at best, not burned out white as it is now. It indicates that your far attenuation (if you're using that method) or your decay start values/distances are set far too high. Find out what distance it is from your nearest light source and set the end of your far attenuation to be a few meters beyond it, and reign in near attenuation accordingly. That way, it will be subtly lit, but not blasted with light. (if you're using decay, there's no way to figure this out other than by trial and error).

The other basic variable to begin with is intensity--set it to cast bright light near its source but not burn out detail. Then you can tweak near and far attenuation to get the effects you want (handy if you want bright illumination over some distance), or go with decay and let falloff be "natural."

Also, there's no reason not to "cheat" and add disembodied fill lights to get the effects you're after, if things aren't working as you want them just by using lights in their correct positions.
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: thingfishs on January 26, 2010, 05:22:53 AM
Thanks a lot gottago for a detailed overview of attenuation & decay. :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

I anticipate a similar response this time but I really need all the advice I can get. It seems to be brighter in game than in gmax as well. I am slowly figuring out how they work but I still don't get the result I'm expecting in preview renders more often than I do. If it will be helpful I can post shots of my gmax setup, I could also post the main building so someone can have a look at my setup and see what could be improved. cogeo I have applied the new texture to the sides and tops of the tanks in the front two rows while leaving the back two. I also tried the beige texture which looks a lot better, as well as turning it up.

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FvOyfp.jpg&hash=4d13855b1cfa0474f5e76d71382d61a253749c46)  (https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FJsqAA.jpg&hash=478decb897a63a7a514f16c3f5d7b06f28b91a55)  (https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FgEhDI.jpg&hash=d32b28e390cb21e6a27dd263cc9fbc6057c96141)  (https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FCsBSQ.jpg&hash=d7f03fa3f7ad282e5302ac93a2b25006af39c44e)


(EDIT: and a daytime shot to show the tanks comparison, there's not too much in it, the new texture is slightly darker.)

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FFkAu1.jpg&hash=bee98721c29a7e003f6cdf523408a63e664af933)
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: gottago on January 26, 2010, 07:55:10 AM
Well first thing it looks like the intensity multiplier of the lights around the tanks is still set way too high, though the front row less so than behind. Did you check them all and see if any are seriously out of whack re: basic parameters, or decay and attenuaton both on? How many are there around the tanks in total? It may be that part of the reason you're still getting that burn-to-white is from having too many concentrated in a small area.

Also, you never clarified what lights you're using--are they all omnis, or a mix, and if so, which are where? This is important to know.

The wash of light on the far end of the large shed opposite the tanks looks very convincing. That is really the effect you should aim for around the tanks.

Also the omni inside the slim transition shed is too bright, the glass there is very big and doesn't have detail and right now the bright light calls too much attention to that. You'd probably be better off swapping out the plain beige Maxis night window texture and trying something like the more busy/abstracted Maxis "glass" texture found in gampacks/BAT/textures. Set the transparency to +/- 40% and see what that does.

As for the tweaked tank texture, I can't say it's an improvement, it just darkened them a bit. If you feel like trying yet another round there, I'd try pushing up contrast and luminosity of the texture by about 15% each, and cropping off about 15-20% from the left side, so that the highlight becomes proportionally bigger (only for the texture on the cylindrical part of the tanks). Hopefully then you might get some interesting highlights to show up.
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: thingfishs on January 26, 2010, 08:56:25 AM
As requested here is an overview of my setup. Blue are omnis, red are target spots and the green ones are target spots with short ranges designed to try and illuminate the "light sources". Hopefully their direction and z placement can be ascertained from the pictures.

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FHG3DK.png&hash=15ee523d556444ac18735804670121794d82c810)  (https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2F7LFhj.png&hash=fc5d00ab9d406ed921ff93fcb7df7192a4508b54)
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: gottago on January 26, 2010, 10:46:51 AM
Well that's quite a knot of light! I don't know how you built it, but the first thing that comes to mind is that you might want to try rebuilding it with a layered approach: remove the spots and start first with the omnis, so you can get the base lighting down first, then add a spot at a time so you can see what it's doing in isolation, tweak it til it looks good, then add the next. Also, you can hide lights and run renders to try and isolate what's causing problems.

The first thing is that the 4 omnis beneath and around the open sheds look all right, from what I can make out; in fact the 2 at 1.0 might go up a bit. But they're being overpowered by the glaring spots. (The three lights on the floor are curious--are they omnis, and what are they there for?)

The main culprits look to be the target spots, but remove the green ones first to see what the red ones are really doing. The ones at 1.4 & 1.5 look harmless enough, but something's got to be off with the settings of the one at .5, which looks to be the only one pointing at the big wall, unless the other one at 1.0 at top right is also pointing there--it's hard to tell what's going on there. In any event, check that the attenuation parameters make sense for all the spots pointing in that direction (this holds true of all the red spots), and also open up the spotlight parameters rollout and check the box "show cone." This will give you a graphic representation of the light cone and the reach of the hotspot, and using that, you can better tweak the hotspot and falloff values in that rollout. The wall should be within the falloff arc, but not in the hotspot. Do the same for all the red spots, adjusting them as necessary to light up only what you want brightly lit in hotspot, and changing falloff so the light tapers off well. Then you can get a better handle on what base multiplier to set without burnout.


In general, it looks like the over-exposure is being caused by your target spots--not tweaking the above parameters correctly.  As you can see, they can be very harsh when they're so near foreground objects and you want them to cast light to distant ones. Good luck with it; figuring out lighting and getting good results the first time out is not easy by any means.
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: thingfishs on January 27, 2010, 08:26:36 AM
Okay here's phase three. I am slowly getting a feel for the lights but it's taking a while. I went through turning each light off one at a time and back on again when it wasn't the one, until I had been through them all and still hadn't found it. :bomb: Finally I realised it was the combination of the two spots facing the building and an omni right at the back that was causing the white out.  ;D
I am still going for an overall lit effect but one in which you can still see detail. I'm certainly getting closer... The front two rows of tanks are too lit up on the sides but they are a lot easier to fix then the main area.

(EDIT: the tanks are also sporting their new textures, + 15 brightness/contrast and cropped as suggested by gottago, (as well as +30 specular) and I think (with maybe a bit of rotating) that the desired effect has been achieved. Also the small joining building is using maxis nite windows not an omni))

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2F9NLWi.jpg&hash=3511c8f1cab150e23389b519709371c74e0e92d5)  (https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FshhXD.jpg&hash=49a6ad4be13f3287a4a2bae52eb5e61e5a6f6eac)

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FTLkwI.jpg&hash=25cefb8a741d5fe8fee4e825597ca26cccc4fb15)  (https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2F2Gjfv.jpg&hash=77668cabb7716ee7a4a311a7205651162ca0fc6e)

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2Fmn2Wi.jpg&hash=89eef85b11c9944e99e989d28d4cf1a32db8e462)

I have also added red grapes and blades to the crusher pit. When I took this shot I realised my worker prop, who from the front view is standing on the gangway in front of the vinematics (the horizontal "tanks"), from this view is floating in mid air. How come and is there a way around it?

(2 more days and I have broadband again, hooray!, you don't want to know how long it took to post this /wrrd%&)
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: WC_EEND on January 27, 2010, 09:20:42 AM
beleive when I tell you when I can imagine how long i took.

I like the new tank lighting. It looks much better now.
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: jmyers2043 on January 27, 2010, 06:14:01 PM
I like the lighting.

Regarding the worker. Is this your prop or someone else? Is it perfectly centered along the X and Y? You may have to import or merge a worker into the tank model to keep him/her where you want.

Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: thingfishs on January 28, 2010, 12:12:44 AM
Thanks WC_EEND & jmyers :thumbsup:, it's a relief to finally be winning the light battle.

I just thought I'd add, in response to jmyers, that it's not my prop, it's from a JES prop pack if I remember correctly. So I gather I have to import that prop somehow into gmax, how is this done? Can you not have props raised above the ground (within reason) without such occurring? I still don't get what's happening.
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: gottago on January 28, 2010, 01:28:18 AM
Looking way better--both lights and tanks.  :thumbsup:

Only two things still need your attention--light leaks. (These are nearly as much fun to hunt down and correct as over-exposure  ::) )

The pair of tanks that come off the right edge of the front row are too strongly lit, and there's a sliver of pure white on their bases. On the elevation pic of your gmax setup, you had three lights set on the floor plane--are these in that area? If they are, they are probably causing this.

Also, the gravel is glowing immediately behind the back wall, which is not stopping the light. Simplest way to stop this is to check that the bottom of the wall is set partly inside the ground slab. If the ground slab is a plane, go to max zoom and make sure they're touching each other. If this doesn't stop the leak, convert the plane to a very thin box that has enough thickness so that you can set the bottom of the wall inside it. Sometimes that won't work either, and if it's still happening, add a simple box inside the wall and set its base inside the ground slab/box as well.

Re: the flying prop man, it could be he wasn't fully centered when the prop was exported, so he may shift placement slightly when rotating viewpoints. But it looks more like you set him too high on the z axis in the LE and didn't check his placement in all rotations. Most likely though, when you place him at the correct height, he'll partly vanish into your LODs. You can't merge a prop into a model so you can either find or make a worker, or forgo him there and put some other worker props on the ground outside your model.
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: thingfishs on January 29, 2010, 12:55:59 PM
Okay well we're nearly home. Thanks for your suggestions there gottago, I tried with mixed success but I've got to say my energy for this is starting to run out. I spent quite a while hunting for the source of that sliver of light, eventually concluding again that it was a combination of several lights (maybe I'm generally using too many lights...). I have reduced it and will just have to assume (in game) that there's a small gap there letting a shaft of light through. As for the gravel I extended the wall below ground and I think it may have helped a little ()what() I guess I'll have one more go at that one. The sign out front lights up now too.

Thanks to jmyers I now have a real man up on the gangway. :thumbsup:

I have also decided as a last touch to open up the doors of the winery itself, it's hard to make much out with the trees and angle but there's some pallets of Shottesbrooke in there. I have also toned down the lighting on the front two tanks in general, as well as raising the light in the cellar door a bit. Just to be clear with that one the cellar door is the hub of activity during the day but is closed and shut down of an evening. So the effect I wanted to achieve there was of the lights being off but the light from the small joining building filtering through. I've sort of achieved it and it's good enough for now.

Short of any minor revisions that may be suggested I think I'm about done (excepting the timed prop and reward stuff). But if you see anything that needs correcting please let me know. (I haven't come this far not to iron out what I can)

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FjeTDD.jpg&hash=557fe958360047a31b10088924b1df63e6f58555)  (https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FoPnmx.jpg&hash=148fd6c09b4eb8a4740178f2646b7ad040715cca) 

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2F1vuHY.jpg&hash=2fca943613428c6a098b3e99cf9cbb3f129008c3)  (https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FvLPIX.jpg&hash=d24b23a5bf18bb60fd57b53d23e462cc8bb57fb3)

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Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: dobdriver on January 29, 2010, 01:34:11 PM

Bloody terrific! things,

You've done a marvellous job overall, and all through this thread is a great lot of info to help out other budding batters.  Well done mate and i can not wait to see it up for sale.

Cheers and take it easy
dobs
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: cogeo on January 29, 2010, 01:52:25 PM
What are all those people walking in front of the winery? Have you included the Landmark Ogle occupant group?

Also is this growable or ploppable? Proper modding is necessary to get a well behaving lot, ie one that neither grows like weeds nor grows rarely. The number of occupants (workers) should depend on the lot size and growth stage. Other stats like garbage production, pollution, electricity consumption, building value etc should be set carefully too.
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: thingfishs on January 30, 2010, 07:00:23 AM
Thanks a lot Dobs :thumbsup:, yeah my entire progress is laid out here, it would be great if others could benefit from it as well. Don't you worry, it'll be on the market soon - at a reasonable price.

cogeo: Yeah it's on a landmark LOT. I started building on there before I knew what I was doing, and by then I'd spent so much time arranging the garden that I couldn't bear starting again if it was avoidable, and I've been told that via reader it is (transferring my current layout to the PIMX). I want this to be as accurately balanced for the game (and CAM) as possible.

In a farming BAT help thread I've had going concurrently with this one: http://sc4devotion.com/forums/index.php?topic=9668.0 (but which with this post is hereby closed) Barby offered to help with the appropriate lotting and reward stuff. This was some weeks back though so hopefully that's still doable. Also I had someone that was/is going to assist with turning some of the (primarily CP) seasonal trees, I'm using into year round versions, at the moment they are only there for one quarter of the year. Unfortunately due to unavoidable circumstance he is currently unable to do so and I still don't have the faintest clue about all that stuff.

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FDxvZy.jpg&hash=aa75321800dda69ab56eaaab673a2aa358671d37)  (https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FTCNNf.jpg&hash=6efcaf87c689f2bd71c69487c61204da4981ac37)

So with the winery nearing completion I will stop posting the vineyards I have been creating in the other thread and do it here. As I've said previously the winery will be a reward lot that will be activated when a certain number of these vineyards grow (and maybe when a certain stage is reached?) The original vine models are by couchpotato and I've spent quite a while trying to texture them appropriately. The summer version is looking just about ready to me, maybe just a little dull. The last version was too bright but I have a feeling I've slightly over corrected.

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FnOnHD.jpg&hash=7247a516e01dd93162a4b1db83bf3fead80e06cf)  (https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FAObcp.jpg&hash=2fc70400086e1b404ca5c0d7b1e48d0bffd5e80b)

I want these to be slope conforming as well as looking like continuous rows. I've noticed on slopes the gaps between each 1×1 tile is more obvious, I assume I'll just have to live with that? That doesn't bother me, I've still been able to avoid the pronounced "box effect" that many farms/fields suffer from. I also will put an eyecandy version in for MD/CJ folk.
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: Couchpotato on January 30, 2010, 07:11:57 AM
I like the slope version and the gap doesn't really matter.   It's always bothered me that you couldn't place a winery on the side of a hill. 

The whole package looks really good.    :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: gottago on January 30, 2010, 09:06:42 AM
The finished lighting and lot look great, and the new vines look ready to go as well. And they look great on the slopes too. They don't look blah to me at all--have you looked at a big field of them from zooms 2&3? This is where you're going to see if the overall color and saturation work or not--it's hard to judge at max zoom.
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: thingfishs on February 03, 2010, 12:18:44 PM
Well after a frustrating few days trying to figure out how to make my grapevines seasonal voila! Primary thanks in all this goes to cogeo, who realised my sequence wasn't working because SC4PIM was wiping the properties I had set in reader. Now ugly as my sequence may be, at least it's working (but if you can tell me how to cut a step or two out that would be great).

I'm exporting the vines from gmax, then I'm making it into a prop in the PIM, converting into RKT4 in PIMX, adjusting the exemplar (I hope I'm using that term correctly) settings (flammability/ground model etc) in reader (as well as the simulator settings) and finally loading it onto a LOT in the LE. Now I know PIMX is supposed to replace the PIM & LE, but there's things I haven't figured out with it yet.

At any rate I now have seasonal vineyards ;D Hooray!!!

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FBt0C2.jpg&hash=bcd830b3c22fcac5716f368b269c5656e1804496)

The photo shows all three states at zooms 4-1 as well as zooms 5 & 6 for the winter version. In the lower left is another patch where something unexpected occurred. See how some of the base texture is a different colour? Is this related to "dampness" or terrain change of some kind? Is this what makes some residential blocks different colours?
This version has had the vine rows reduced by one vine because previously it was extending beyond the 16m boundary. The winter version shows gaps because of the missing foliage, I guess I'll just spread the vines out a little in that one...
As for the vine models this version was just a test, I intend to make a couple of each state to limit the tiling. Or do as cogeo suggested as a possibility for perfectionists (which I am by the way), which was create a prop family of vines.

I've now been told by two different very experienced SC folk that I should:

1. have the vines as 4 props (in my case 12?) to increase their ability to conform to slopes (which I want them to be able to do)
2. have the vines as 1 prop (in my case 3?) because the slope conforming advantage is outweighed by the extra processor load.

Does anyone have any further thoughts on any of this?
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: mightygoose on February 03, 2010, 01:10:54 PM
maybe each vine row as 2 props compromising on the issue, anyway these look superb...
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: jmyers2043 on February 03, 2010, 01:31:00 PM
What are your assumptions?

Is your vineyard going to grow in huge mass numbers overtaking the countryside? Then it may be a bit much.

Will the typical player find themselves with 3 or 4 vineyards growing in their rural city? I don't see a problem.

How big is the typical farm for the typical SC4 player? 10X10 square? 15X15? 20X20? Look at some MD's. Fields sizes range from tiny to huge. Obviously, the larger fields will have more props in play whereas smaller fields fewer props.

Then again - what's going to replace the vine props if there is no field? A densely forested scene? Where is the prop savings in that case?

Let's say I want to make a park. In that park is a row of flowers and bushes. That's like telling me that I have to lot a park with 'all in one' props and cannot use individual Maxis flowers and shrubs. Bah!

It's good to be concerned but I think it's better for you to be happy with the end result of your work.

<edit>

BTW - I do like the way your vines look.

Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: cogeo on February 04, 2010, 10:21:37 AM
In a private message to Ryan I just raised a concern about the number of timed props in these farm-fields. Timed props are not like normal props, the game stores and calculates additional information for these, at least the "state" and "days elapsed since activation". The members who have analyzed the prop-pox problem can provide more detailed information about this. And these are re-calculated all the time.

There are four rows of vines in each tile, and as you can see in the pics there are three models to display, so each farm-field will contain 4 x 3 = 12 timed props! Therefore I proposed considering making "big" props (with four rows of vines) instead. And these can be slope-conforming too. In theory the four single-row (as it is now) may look somewhat better, on slopes, but only on tiles with really steep and uneven slopes (with all four tile's vertices at a substantially different height). However I think the "big" prop will be acceptable as well.

Ryan, this is easy to test, modify your test-lot so that it doesn't flatten the terrain, having it simply "sitting" on the sloped ground; I think you just need to set the LotConfigPropertyMaxSlopeAllowed and LotConfigPropertyMaxSlopeBeforeLotFoundation properties (in the lot exemplar) to a high value, eg 90. Then plop it on highly slopped terrain to see how it looks.
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: thingfishs on February 05, 2010, 09:05:02 AM
Thanks mightygoose, jmyers & cogeo :thumbsup:

As for the 4 prop (or 2 prop) versus 1 thing it's clearly beyond my understanding but the deciding factor on which way I would go isn't. I found on less smooth terrain (not necessarily steep) that with 4 props they would stick out in different directions to one another whereas as a 4 prop, even if they were a bit wonky, at least the rows remained parallel to each other. Also it quarters the workload. :thumbsup:

So with that in mind I finally decided to add the most important season of all, wine season. So now the vines have four states including a summer fruiting state. I have extended the vines slightly past the 16m boundary to assist with continuity, but have set their occupant size to 14m.

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FvCWqN.jpg&hash=1b0af36176f63fc15f7cf9279d15d64188ceb30e)

Spring

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2F3n5wB.jpg&hash=42c480ff3b9f756610df62b87cf512c6a1959136)

Summer (the same but with red grapes, lets say they're Merlot)

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FDdWvz.jpg&hash=f165f5b41fef73825c726fec000842ded90430e8)

Winter (I have added a whole bunch of canes to the vine models, vines in winter, post-harvest are pretty ratty looking)

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FrsbdG.jpg&hash=4a8910513aecfe9956e84dbf6f58691d666e992d)

Autumn (Fall) (I have de-saturated these a tad, and added a few red leaves)

I'm thinking these might be good enough. (although the green ones are a tad bright in zoom 3, I just don't want them to be too dull in 4 & 5.)
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: puresim on February 05, 2010, 01:19:31 PM
Wow those look really good to me. It's not immediately obvious in the screenshots that the summer season is fruiting, it looks very similar to spring, but in the real it wouldn't be too obvious either. I don't know, is it?

I can't wait for you to release this, and hopefully more vineyards in the future. I have a farming community keen to taste some fine local wines ;)
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: dobdriver on February 05, 2010, 02:40:53 PM


G'day Things, the vines are looking good there. These will certainly add some flavour to the farm communities, not to mention a few drunken sims.

puresim, local? these are Barossa Valley wines. You'll have to import it  :D. I'm sure things will make a corner bottlo if we ask ;)

take it easy
dobdriver
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: thingfishs on February 05, 2010, 08:01:12 PM
Dobs, watch what you say...

these are NOT Ford, they're Holden... sorry, let me rephrase that. Shottesbrooke is NOT the Barossa Valley, it's Mclaren Vale.
The Barossa is roughly 40km north of Adelaide, Mclaren Vale is roughly 40km South. BIG difference... ;)

As for the corner bottlo, I intend to add to the Shottes reward chain at some point with something like that. Actually now I think about it, it will probably be a local pub with a bottle shop or drive thru (local to me that is, you're going to have to import that too I guess. I can't imagine what the shipping on that would be...). Another idea I just had was the annual Bushing Festival. Hmmm, how that would be created. I wonder if it's possible to temporarily block off a section of road from visual automata.

Thanks for your thoughts there puresim & Dobs :thumbsup:, we'll be filling their glasses before long.
I agree the fruit could stand out more. I'll add some more and make them a bit more purple, they look a bit like extra shadows now but it's probably not too far from what they would actually look like. I'll adjust the green of the leaves in the Summer version as well to make it more different from Spring, and hopefully to make the fruit stand out.

And here's a look at my new region thanks to dobdriver/drunkapple. It's his wellington map in 200 years, when the water level has risen, taking with it flat boring land suitable for SC4 metropolises (nature can be so selfish ;)) So now it's different from anyone else's and has more islands and channels. It's going to be an interesting challenge.
Thanks for my world bloke. :thumbsup:

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2Fi8itk.png&hash=555ab0e1a86e2acc5aefaf5366756e424cd2c9c4)
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: mrdazza_460 on February 05, 2010, 09:38:34 PM
those vineyards look grate  :thumbsup:, every vineyard has a seller door and high priced restaurants, could you make some to go with it maybe....   
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: dobdriver on February 06, 2010, 12:04:50 AM


Oops :-[
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: puresim on February 06, 2010, 04:46:42 AM
G'day mate. dobdriver got the country right, that's what matters :D

You can never have too many local pubs. I think you're on to a winner here thingfishs :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: dobdriver on February 06, 2010, 05:37:50 AM

Right country... It's only 50 miles apart but may as well be the next universe. I remember we used to drive 50km to the next town to fight the kids there. :D
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: thingfishs on February 07, 2010, 02:20:17 PM
Quote from: dobdriver on February 06, 2010, 05:37:50 AM
I remember we used to drive 50km to the next town to fight the kids there. :D
:D

Yeah, there's some friendly rivalry between the Barossa & us. Haven't had a punch up for a while though. ;)

Thanks mrdazza and puresim for your thoughts. :thumbsup:

mrdazza: There is a cellar door, it's the smaller building. As for a restaurant, maybe. Certainly where there are vines there are restaurants filled with pretentious city folk who think they know about wine. However at this point I'm pretty sold on the pub idea. The Mclaren Vale pub has a traditional front bar as well as a posher restaurant area and a drive through bottle shop, it's an all in one package.

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FhDY4T.jpg&hash=1d9f651437a3eef65524cbe68be712acaa01df24)
(Hotel McLaren)

puresim: Yep, never enough pubs. Rather than base it on the Hotel McLaren, which is a beautiful building, I think I'll base it on this one from Uki in northern NSW (but with stone walls - although looking at that photo of our local is making me have second thoughts...):

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2F33lG7.jpg&hash=2611e83f9264eabbfa9d1094dd8c52813c1aefa3)
(Mount Warning Hotel)

Here are the vines. I tried making the fruit more purple but it started to look cartoony, much too purple. In RL red grapes are quite dark from a distance so I'm not too concerned. I did alter the leaf texture as well though which helps make the seasons all feel different. It's seem they will always tile a bit. I like the idea of making prop families to avoid this but I've learnt enough for my first project, maybe I'll update it one day.

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FnvihL.jpg&hash=450b667e84f03374a5a14e730b0f659f8d96dee7)    (https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FFdpIU.jpg&hash=cc337e9f327041b8b7a7da77bdf876f867cffced)
Spring/Winter

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2Flacti.jpg&hash=b135067821774217fed80e983151d0cbb2d364cc)    (https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FElQRR.jpg&hash=8711c6678ea2fc4123ce07230f7ea9c40178686f)
Summer/Autumn

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2Fsj9vA.jpg&hash=2a1a89ffe64e25af094f8fdb24fdfd4ab1743952)

This is zoom 2 for the seasons that stand out the most, I think it's bearable.

I have had a new problem arise though. For some reason the base texture I've applied to the LOT isn't showing. After many version and much annoyance it's still MIA. The texture itself is just a regular maxis one that comes from simcity_2.dat (which is installed as it always is). Instead the base texture is the regular green of a maxis grass LOT (which they are built on). Does anyone know what might be going on. And am I done with this whole Shottesbrooke thing? (bar the base texture)




Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: mrdazza_460 on February 08, 2010, 02:24:48 AM

yah, I'm liking that Hotel McLaren, I could see myself sinking 1 or 2 ummmm or 10  frothy's there.....

the Mount Warning Hotel, it a nice pub, but I made a building like that sometime ago,  the problem is there just to much roof for the game because of the camera angle,  that's all you see is one big roof.....


As for the vineyards I wouldn't over load them with any more detail, you could have a bigger gap between the vines, because they look a little bit cluttered, but it looks good, I also  I think you do need to get darken those bright leafs on the top in autumn view, they stand out a bit to much when zone out,  other then that I love the winter view, I also like the base dark green grass texture, it makes the brown stand out more plus I hate maxis grass textures so I would keep it, 

kepp it up. &apls   



 
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: Girafe on February 08, 2010, 02:32:39 AM
the vines plants are so beautiful, and very usefull. Very nice work. It is HD ? because I tried HD wheet and the game doesn t support big fields so I stopped there my research in this subject.

but for sure vines are superb  &apls &apls &apls   
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: thingfishs on February 08, 2010, 11:54:28 AM
Thanks for the kind words mrdazza & Girafe :thumbsup:

In reply to you Girafe, no they are not in HD but I'll take it as a compliment that you even asked. ;)

and mrdazza, did you release your pub? I'd like to see it. I hear what you're saying about too much roof, maybe the McLaren is the way to go.

As for the vines the gaps between rows look smaller because of the angle I think, have a look at one of the shots from the other orientation above. I have also removed those bright yellow leaves and replaced them with red leaves.

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FiKx08.jpg&hash=30ae2e78e9e1de4a409050c20601b014032ab51f)  (https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FHCSvS.jpg&hash=833639c2688753b2c735795fe7def5ae49e433e9)
(Autumn zooms 5 & 2)

Also I remembered why I had that extra strip on the back of my winery LOT. It was because I hadn't centered the building model in gmax. So I centered and re-exported it and then selected all in the LE and moved them to the back of the LOT and then removed the front row. So far so good, except it won't let me save it. Even after moving every prop I could within the lines of the tile it was still saying this.

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2Fcgrxd.jpg&hash=2de7b0c77945416a72bc931ea14673a0c6729026)

I've had various trees slightly overhanging th LOT up until now without any problem, what's the deal?

Thanks.
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: puresim on February 08, 2010, 01:16:07 PM
None of your props look like they're outside &mmm

Assuming you have a backup, what happens if you delete all your props and then try to save?
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: jmyers2043 on February 08, 2010, 01:40:58 PM
The building looks like it is riding the line. Try moving it one or two clicks to the left.

Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: mrdazza_460 on February 08, 2010, 02:01:43 PM
the only thing i can think of is the building model or the gray box are slightly over hanging the lot, you probably wont be able to see it with a naked eye, I think that the only reason why you would get the in lot editor....
The autumn looks better now on those vineyards  

As for the Pub I never render it to the game and I just....... and can't find what I did with it,  but regardless, it's that large veranda that give you that distinctive aussie look. If you cut down the size of it, it end up looking Europe or American      
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: thingfishs on February 09, 2010, 11:01:59 AM
thanks mrdazza, jmyers and puresim. :thumbsup:

It was the building hanging over by a fraction, the props as it turns out can hang over without any issue. :)
Another issue that I've avoided for too long is that I've used some seasonal trees by cp that only appear for the individual season that I've placed. The most important ones are the seasonal cherries in summer, I don't want to place the other versions over the top because they are representing evergreen trees. So I've gone into reader, found the seasonal cherry exemplar, erased the simulator settings and saved it (though I could only save it as a differently named version of the prop pack which contains it - cp seasonal trees 2009a)

Unfortunately I planted quite a few different CP seasonal trees before I knew what I was doing and now I am trying to replace some of them as well. Is there an easier way to any of this?
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: gottago on February 09, 2010, 12:11:58 PM
Hi things,

Sounds strange your problem with the CP seasonal trees--when you lot them, there are 4 models of every tree variety, corresponding to each of the 4 seasons. One tree won't do it when lotting--you must place a prop of the tree at each season at the same rotation at the same place to have a single "seasonal" tree.

Edit: Ah, okay; if it involves Reader, I'll pass.  ::)
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: thingfishs on February 09, 2010, 12:41:26 PM
Thanks gottago, though you misunderstand. What I am trying to do is edit the cherry summer file so that it remains all year round, I'm under the impression this can be done. I certainly don't want them losing their leaves.

Also I posted this in my "international" thread but thought I might post it here (keen to see what others think). This is a custom SC4 logo done in graffiti style by my talented housemate. I am also slowly making a graffiti prop pack for use in the LE which this will feature in. I think it's cool as, but others may not be so enthused. ;)

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FWlkM3.png&hash=f9fe6d74ec09ab4a87506237227ab5bb6732500d)

<EDIT> ALso a local footy ground I've had a play with. Don't worry, it's not finished.

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FSCLVG.png&hash=8b87db5713782619e544515866145850dfe06298)
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: Chatters on February 09, 2010, 02:24:52 PM
Nice Oval. My recommendation would be to change the pitch to a more brown-y colour. The red goalposts are interesting, I haven't seen any in my area; are they common where you are?
A few poorly drawn chalk lines would finish it. I love the shape and texture of the ground though. Even without lines it's still obviously a football oval, and that's enough to make me excited!  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: thingfishs on February 16, 2010, 06:40:10 PM
Thanks Chatters :thumbsup:

I didn't mention in my last post that this idea stemmed directly from a request of Chatter's for a more realistic local Aussie rules footy ground. As for the red posts, yeah we have them here in SA but admittedly it's more of a primary school thing; I just put them in for colour/interest. The texture on the pitch wasn't showing in that last shot, that was just the default "no texture" grey. What do you think now?

I will add some chalk lines, how would I best go about this?

So these are the in-game shots of my progress. I'm pretty happy with it and think it's close to finished. Any thoughts anyone?

(oh and ignore that fine line that goes through the oval, it's not in the BAT but the game, does anyone know how to prevent this? My other installation of SC4 doesn't suffer from this issue)

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FOEJRe.jpg&hash=271e23c4917422cdea7b082a39468ab7b9f486dd)

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2F16MMo.jpg&hash=992ac4ad4d3187accf9906e336807b2b7b853134)    (https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2Fo9kXP.jpg&hash=9868066a55be67bc040c1d6417a6e455ceddcdf1)
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: Diggis on February 17, 2010, 02:18:18 AM
A couple of things Mate, Good start on the oval.  I would think the line might be due to graphics settings, but no idea what ones.  The grass seems a little saturated to me, I would darken it slightly and maybe make it less yellow by a little.  I'm not a follower of AFL but is the brown strip in the middle part of the game, or because it doubles as a cricket wicket? 

The railings seem a little bulky and large, but that may be because I'm not sure of their purpose.  Looking at the posts and the building they seem too high to be standard railings.

On the seasonal props issue, I take it this is the one we dealt with in another thread?

and finally, when placing buildings on a lot it's advisable to ensure they aren't close to the boundary of the lot as this can cause the immortal lot syndrome.
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: puresim on February 17, 2010, 02:36:50 PM
Hey that's looking a lot better. I like your lotting on this new version, overall it looks very nice!

I do agree with Diggis' feedback on the grass and oversized barrier. The grass saturation may be a little high, the base texture grass beside it is much less saturated and you shouldn't see such a difference. The barrier does seem big - perhaps if the field was 2/3 the size the barrier would be spot on.

My main comment would be that the grass still looks too large. It's shrunk a lot since your previous version, but if you look very closely you can see individual stands of grass which you shouldn't be able to see. Ignore this comment if nobody else sees it though ;)
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: mrdazza_460 on February 17, 2010, 11:46:25 PM
for the ground itself try this one and see how it looks,

I keep looking around for some more as I need the same texture as well   

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm3.static.flickr.com%2F2749%2F4366756001_a3ffa72b9c_o.jpg&hash=e03049a327f20759980734ef1ebc311861e33bb0)
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: Girafe on February 25, 2010, 01:49:50 PM
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fnsa13.casimages.com%2Fimg%2F2010%2F02%2F25%2F100225103958381002.jpg&hash=25c1ab6ead84d1baae416463d22d07ad80324923) (http://www.casimages.com)

You asked me this, it s for you

if you want some corrections or adjustements tell me

props attached to the comment

the little Girafe
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: manchou on February 28, 2010, 03:24:15 AM
Your vine looks great  :thumbsup: but it's a shame that is not in HD  &mmm !

Manchou
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: thingfishs on March 25, 2010, 09:40:09 AM
HI... (clears throat)

Hi, you may remember me... or maybe not.

The saga of Shottesbrooke Winery continues. Uni has taken over my life a bit (but probably not as much as it should be  ;)) Also, because I learnt everything doing Shottes, I made many mistakes that later had to be rectified. One of these was doing my lotting with a packed plugin folder, by the time I was done I had 13 or something dependencies! And because most of these props were overlapping each other in the garden, it was virtually impossible to "weed" out the desired items.

So... the decision was made to start again (https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Femoticons2.yolasite.com%2Fresources%2Fcryingsmiley.gif&hash=88c7b12b74573815e84afb8724b5b83f7dae3171)

Barby made a new LOT for me, as well as renaming and centering my props. Thanks again :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

(although I suspect I might've made a bit of a mess of things already...)
What I have re-lotted on here is the PLOP version... will this be OK? Also the groundprop had also acquired a distinct diagonal line across it, so I've replaced it.

This new version also has tanks that all look right, at freaking last. Woo hoo!! (see the previous shots and you'll see that the front row was still looking wrong) As well as, as mentioned, a new ground texture which has slightly desaturated lawns (thanks to T Wrecks for the suggestion) As far as the lotting goes I tried to stay as faithful to the original, mostly because it's easier. But with many less plants to choose from it was harder, and it's not quite finished yet. I just wanted to show this new version, and see what thoughts people might have before I finally put this sucker to bed. (https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sunhairsimscreations.com%2Fforum%2Fimages%2Fsmilies%2Ffingerscrossed-fingers-crossed-goodluck-smiley-emoticon-000674-medium.gif&hash=d3487a3d7ce4c1f159ff3422e1d7028daf0a60dd)

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FZpYZ8.jpg&hash=98b28b279b32f6fb07ee7a6578201819cd1e1b02)   
(the eagle's taking a look)

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2F8Qcto.jpg&hash=67cdd392f4ec9dac4fb1f5d9bf9ca6032faa0481)

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2F8xAVk.jpg&hash=3e9e764f694f368ad260063995ff760b2c2a379a)   

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FfulfL.jpg&hash=1c65a1b5d2d99516731a6015a0160f56feb4c80e)


Girafe: thanks again for that awesome tractor :thumbsup: You would see it in shot but (it's a timed prop) and unfortunately was out in the vineyard when the photos were taken.
Now that I've had a proper chance to check it out in game, I would request that you send me a new version with the red of the tractor desaturated a bit, I think it stands out a little too much, but is otherwise great.

dazza: thanks heaps for the oval, once Shottesbrooke is finally done then I can get everything else out that I've done. But as my first BAT I'm adamant that it will be my first release.

puresim & diggis: thanks for your thoughts guys, sorry it's taken so long to reply. How's your stuff coming along puresim?

manchou: thanks, I will release a separate plop version of the vines in HD just for you ;)



PS Now it's been explained to me, but I still don't get it. (also my head has been filled with a lot of stuff lately -spanish, english & music) When I want to make a seasonal tree stay all year round I believe I have to make a new exemplar for it...? I thought I had previously done this, I made the exemplar and that version stayed all year round. But it was external to the dependency source. How do I make a new version of a prop and still have it linking to the original dependency pack?
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: dobdriver on March 25, 2010, 10:38:22 AM


Looks like it will be bottom's up for this baby awful soon big fella. &apls &apls

Ah 13 dependencies, who cares. Everyone's probably got 'em all anyhow :thumbsup: or should have  ;)

I see you've got an eagle in the nest as well.

Great, well done
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: manchou on March 27, 2010, 08:56:19 AM
The LOT is nice  &apls

And A big thanks to realese a plop vines in HD "just for me"  $%Grinno$%
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: CasperVg on March 27, 2010, 09:09:45 AM
This really is an awesome-looking creation, thingsfish. The lot looks awesome and all the greenery makes it picture-perfect. I'm looking forward to plopping (growing?) it  :)
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: Girafe on March 27, 2010, 10:31:36 AM
So nice thingfishs !!

The lot is very suprising !! you paid attention to lot of details and the result is very beautiful  :thumbsup:

Thanks for your mail, of course I can do everything for the tractor, the best would be that you send me the exactly color you want  :P

Girafe
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: thingfishs on May 30, 2010, 01:57:35 PM
Hello hello,

I've been doing other things for a while; some half finished, some aspiring to be half finished. This one is an Australian company called Makin Mattresses, they um... well I'm not sure what they do... I think they're involved in aquaculture.
This store is around the corner from me and I've been meaning to BAT it for a while. I have done the RL + 33% method but I feel it's clearly too big now. This is a 6x5 LOT. Even in RL scale it was 5x4 which was still pretty big. It's a CS$$ stage 4 growable that hasn't yet grown (the 5x4 one grew without too much difficulty.

Ignore the big line through the second shot. It's a tessellation line that I can't work out how to fix after previously fixing it (I had to set something in the NVIDIA controls with "clamp" in it's name to openGL; however, after a reinstall of Windows 7 this setting has vanished?)

Any thoughts on any of this? Can anyone recommend a good prop pack for car park overlays? See the jagged edge in the upper left of the building in the second pic...., what's that?

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FUeNGz.jpg&hash=266aa224ceb82ec9deeca4e3271047ee45e63d63)      (https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FLYImg.jpg&hash=823d29d9b4ffb8e839bb3151627251088b1edeb0)


thanks to dobs, manchou, casper & Girafe for your comments on the winery.  :thumbsup: There are issue with the number of props on the LOT (900 odd), but I am happy (and exhausted) with it and will release it on the STEX (with an appropriate warning).
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: Girafe on May 30, 2010, 03:28:24 PM
900 props  :shocked2:  you added lot of flora items but 900 it's huge anyway it is a good first lot  ;)

For the new BAT, roof is little weird, maybe rework the roof texture

For dimensions, cut the high (/2 or /1.5).

for the lot I am not so good so I prefer to let another members to help you  ;)

Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: thingfishs on May 31, 2010, 10:29:50 AM
Thanks Girafe,

I modeled the roof on the real building but the strip down the middle was bothering me. I removed that and played around with the roof texture a bit... better?

Also I have reduced the overall scale of the building by 25% and the vertical scale by a further 30%... better?

There are still some issues with that upper left corner, any ideas?

Also what's the best way to deal with signs like I have on the building? At the moment they are png's with alpha maps used as textures on thin rectangles. However in the RL the main sign actually extends over the top of the roof (see picture), but when I do this there is a shadow given off from the whole rectangle, not just the visible letters. Does that makes sense? Is there anyway to avoid it?

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.makinmattresses.com.au%2Fimages%2Fadelaide_store.jpg&hash=7238259c5fe0c974d0c844dda15d0ac15af23408)

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FnTzCS.jpg&hash=007d111ee77a841645ee00a768e44e082452274b)     (https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FR8nVD.jpg&hash=90d46a0d12a032af4e6d64238168909be0076e50)



Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: BarbyW on June 01, 2010, 02:12:59 AM
The amount of props on a lot is not purely a resource problem but is part of the Maxis limitation on lot properties. There is an absolute limit of 1280 properties in a lot - this includes all base and overlay textures. After this limit is reached items may disappear at random so one time it may be a base texture, another it may be a major prop. All lot makers need to be aware of this and normally it is not a problem until you get to very large lots. Petrona's Towers, available exclusively on the DVD, is a 17x17 lot yet has less properties than the winery. The limitation is something that cannot be changed as it is built in to the game.
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: thingfishs on June 01, 2010, 03:53:10 AM
Quote from: BarbyW on June 01, 2010, 02:12:59 AM
The amount of props on a lot is not purely a resource problem but is part of the Maxis limitation on lot properties. There is an absolute limit of 1280 properties in a lot - this includes all base and overlay textures. After this limit is reached items may disappear at random so one time it may be a base texture, another it may be a major prop. All lot makers need to be aware of this and normally it is not a problem until you get to very large lots. Petrona's Towers, available exclusively on the DVD, is a 17x17 lot yet has less properties than the winery. The limitation is something that cannot be changed as it is built in to the game.

Understood, and I appreciate that the winery is pushing things. But for me it's a special piece and though it may seem as though there are lots of essentially invisible props in the garden: I didn't place them without due care. Every one was positioned for some reason from some angle and zoom. I know that I need to take it easier on the props but Shottesbrooke was my first and I think I'm done with it. Also as I've said before each city would have a maximum of 1 winery so hopefully it wouldn't cause too many problems. (in approaching the limit for props is the concern over prop pox or just in pushing the game harder than it needs to be, or something else?)
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: BarbyW on June 01, 2010, 03:57:18 AM
The problem is that pushing the limit on a 5x5 lot leaves very little manoeuvrability if you make a similarly propped larger lot. It has nothing to do with prop pox but can result in disappearing props if you go over the limit of 1280.
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: thingfishs on June 01, 2010, 04:02:16 AM
I still don't understand... given that the winery hasn't gone over the limit I take it disappearing props aren't an issue.

Quote from: BarbyW on June 01, 2010, 03:57:18 AM
The problem is that pushing the limit on a 5x5 lot leaves very little manoeuvrability if you make a similarly propped larger lot.

I don't follow this. How so?
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: BarbyW on June 01, 2010, 04:06:57 AM
If you are propping a lot of this size with so many props, many of which are not visible as they are stacked on top of each other, then you may well go over the limit if dealing with a larger lot and prop in the same way.
Disappearing props won't be an issue with the winery as it is under the limit.
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: Diggis on June 01, 2010, 04:11:18 AM
Quote from: thingfishs on June 01, 2010, 04:02:16 AM
I still don't understand... given that the winery hasn't gone over the limit I take it disappearing props aren't an issue.

I don't follow this. How so?

She's saying don't make a habit of this heavy propping, cos next time you might get too many. 
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: thingfishs on June 01, 2010, 04:18:43 AM
ah, well that's OK then... the lesson has been learnt ;) thanks Barby & Diggis :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: thingfishs on June 02, 2010, 08:34:29 PM
here's where it's up to...


(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2Fvz5Q5.jpg&hash=6c60f93733d72db8e61b327528b4bb6fbc4e660e)


(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FOHXkD.jpg&hash=8c24e8a088c4297f0e2522e888ea1dc1dbd34bc9)
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: joelyboy911 on June 02, 2010, 09:20:13 PM
Did you try re-rendering to get rid of the line across it? maybe with a new LOD? Not sure if that would help or not.  :-\
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: thingfishs on June 02, 2010, 09:56:52 PM
nah,  the line hasn't got anything to do with the BAT, it's just in the way unfortunately. It's a NVIDIA issue that I've fixed once and will again, eventually. But at this point I'm not too concerned about it, cheers.
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: dobdriver on June 03, 2010, 09:17:38 AM

Forgot to take my camera to town today to get that wow joint, but I've got to again tomorrow so I'll get them then.
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: cogeo on June 03, 2010, 01:07:35 PM
The "divider" or "gap" line is not specific to this BAT, or to any system configuration. It concerns all BATs larger than a certain size. It's easier to see it in ploppables: if you plop the lot several times, some of lots will have the problem and some others not!

I think it is caused by the partitioning ("slicing") of the model, and the not very much perfect alignment of the model's "segments". Jasoncw from ST knows how to fix this (I think by performing some small changes to the model's vertices). I would suggest that he is consulted.

And if the procedure can be described (specified) exactly, it could a good candidate to consider implementing in the Model Tweaker.
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: thingfishs on June 03, 2010, 08:43:15 PM
cogeo, are you talking about the prominent black line running right through the model? I was told they were called tessellation lines and I followed a tutorial from here to that effect which solved the problem. It's just been in reinstalling Windows 7 that the steps in that tutorial can't work as I'm now missing an entry in my NVIDIA settings. I can only assume it now has something to do with my drivers, I will look into it. But for now I'm not too worried as I know they're not part of the models themselves.

Thanks dobs.

Here is another thing I've had a play around with. This is a (currently) 356m jetty as I am used to them here in Australia. I intend to do a few versions, one without the cover, one just straight for eg.


(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FBeGL2.jpg&hash=3e8273adbe235d478a1a8f4aa2eeca376e9ad2b4) (https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FxlkYa.jpg&hash=1d04b3c91d754392b67cc2888cbd7b422aa079b2)
Any ideas why my shadows stop part way down the jetty?

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FjWXXK.jpg&hash=07737044b475f8f7b0384597a05dd38eda829bac)

Also how do I make it so the poles don't look so odd when they go into the water (if possible)?





Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: joelyboy911 on June 04, 2010, 03:55:41 AM
I  think the shadows get mucked up when you make a model that's over a certain size, and part of it ends up outside the range of the lighting rig - but I'm not entirely sure.  :-\

It looks great anyhow things, sorry I don't know what you can do about the piles in the water.

Good work. A+ (or as we call it in New Zealand 'Achieved with Excellence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Certificate_of_Educational_Achievement#Achievement_levels)').
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: ShultzCity on June 22, 2010, 07:14:22 PM
America is more accustomed to the letter gradings (A+, F-, etc.). In Aus I'm pretty sure our educational system doesn't like wasting ink on student's reports....  $%Grinno$%
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: thingfishs on June 22, 2010, 10:28:39 PM
Thanks guys, and you were right about the shadow issue Joel. :thumbsup:

Quote from: ShultzCity on June 22, 2010, 07:14:22 PM
America is more accustomed to the letter gradings (A+, F-, etc.).

I feel sorry for the student whose teacher added insult to injury by giving them a F-...  ;)
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: callagrafx on June 23, 2010, 01:24:07 AM
Quote from: thingfishs on June 03, 2010, 08:43:15 PM
Also how do I make it so the poles don't look so odd when they go into the water (if possible)?

You need to make the LODs skin tight up against the model... Best way to do that is clone the legs and walkway, attach them together, clone twice and call them LOD3,LOD4 and LOD5
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: thingfishs on September 28, 2010, 01:45:07 PM
G'day to all,

I've been out of action for quite a while. Varying RL issues have kept me away, but I have spent a couple of evenings making something that every Australian town needs, a TAB. For international readers, the TAB is where you go to bet on horses, dogs etc. I have modelled this on my local one (in making this I've also come to realise that not all Australian TAB's have the same logo - if any inter-staters want their version, I can just swap the logos over...)
There's still a little bit to be done. Ignore the green strip - it's a placeholder for the gutter.

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FaM97R.jpg&hash=1d63d79cf9f3dba7f60defde3403d98ae55a1155)


Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: jmyers2043 on September 29, 2010, 02:34:27 PM
Nice small shop. I like the wall texture and the dish on the roof.
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: adroman on September 29, 2010, 10:02:25 PM
Very nice, things.  :thumbsup:
The textures look very nice...

Could I request the Queensland TAB logo? It's a shooting star-esque deal.  ;D

Adrian.
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: thingfishs on October 03, 2010, 05:56:46 PM

thanks guys :thumbsup:



Here is where it's up to now:

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FHq3t7.jpg&hash=740f7b63d3ce151e1470dbc8eaa08fc751c5dde1)

Plus I have "made" NSW, QLD & VIC ones by swapping the logos. The blue of the verandah compliments the blue of the SA logo and I can easily change the colour for the interstate ones if something else will suit better...

(these shots were taken before I played around with the roof junk a bit more, to make it more true to life, they will all end up the same)

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FWIote.jpg&hash=d239b60ac120e13395624f707621e45075b8fa11)
NSW                         

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2F0Bx44.jpg&hash=13f467c2570bec4790802b99ff582c49de9f8f44)
OLD

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FO4GzF.jpg&hash=7d848278dc8e3d15ef5d7b37bdbf2e31df54169e)
VIC
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: deadwoods on October 04, 2010, 12:09:59 AM
There are some great BATs and lots here. Good to see someone producing more Aussie lots.

For the mattress shop you might want to consider the corrugated aluminum roofing used on many aussie buildings these days. Have a look at my Aussie Retail Series lots on the LEX and how I've done the roofs. Plus there are some examples of carpark textures that work with the standard maxis car props.
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: jdenm8 on October 04, 2010, 03:10:19 AM
Wow nice. I've just read through this whole thread and I'm in awe. Not that I can actually BAT myself :P

The TAB here in QLD seems to have a green thing going on. I recommend changing the colour of the verandah to green if it's not too much trouble. I can't provide an analogue cause, believe it or not, there isn't a single pic of a QLD TAB that I or Google can find.

Once again, great work!  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: thingfishs on October 04, 2010, 10:41:44 AM
Deadwoods: Holy Crap!!! (https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FLSY34.gif&hash=aad61ae0b0dcc251b74a4fe3398ff1a0815866de)

I'm shocked by your presence (I always wondered what happened to you), and honoured by your compliments.  ;D I will have a look at your roofs, something's not right about mine, it looks too much like a painting somehow... However I won't need to access the LEX; your Aussie Retail Series are a mainstay for me and many other Australian (and otherwise I'm sure) players. I still remember the first time I saw a JB Hi-Fi sprout up and getting pretty excited. As always I am wanting to make my cities more and more familiar, and with all the Australian stuff combined now, it's getting easier.

jdenm8: Cheers mate :thumbsup: You should give it a go sometime if you're at all inclined; it's a fun journey. I have changed the verandah on the Queensland one to green, and the NSW to yellow; thanks for the suggestion. It also helps them look a bit different if they happen to all end up in the plugin folder.


In these shots there are two versions (SA & QLD), on opposite corners. They are W2W corner lots (CS$) with parking out the back (just as in RL). There are also occasional male tantrums & whoops on the sidewalk & in the car park, depending on their luck. ;)

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2F9sFhJ.jpg&hash=7ce38460c4f93637e1a916891e884781387bf025)


(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FmT16P.jpg&hash=e0226d4f0ee041e1355b6e090da0e61706baf337)
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: thingfishs on October 05, 2010, 01:02:45 PM
another common one in Australia, SuperCheap Auto:

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FKHqCE.jpg&hash=f8fc3dc3369ae3865ad6197902d497a7892c942d)
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: jmyers2043 on October 05, 2010, 06:11:44 PM
I like the corrugated awning and also the metal box has a nice texture too. I like that the sign is casting a shadow against the wall. The orange foundation is a good idea in that it is not distracting and adds visual interest. The wall itself has a very subtle gradient? At least I think it does. Sometimes less is more but I'm not sure in this case. The cream walls are almost too much for me. But obviously it's your bat. What paint program do you have. Can it do layers? I assume your shooting for a wall with a stucco finish?

The image on the left is an opactiy overlay that JenP did a while back. I use it on surfaces to create a highlight or where I want give variation of light and dark on an otherwise flat color. I used my color picker to find the color of Super Cheap. Created a image flooding it with the Super Cheap color. I then overlayed opacity map using the 'dodge' function to sneak some variation to surface. I acutally don't know how it would look on a building. But this is where I'd start if it were my bat. It may be ok ... may not ... I may chuck the opacity map and try something different ... or I may decide it has promise and play with it a bit more. But right now I'm thinking that this might look like a stucco wall. I admit I've not experiemented so it may also look like s**t for all I know.  ::) 

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi148.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fs26%2Fjmyers2043%2FCream.jpg&hash=6381150b7a2201598a85819007e90d71ac8fd1f5)


Good Luck

- Jim


Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: jdenm8 on October 05, 2010, 07:29:35 PM
hahaha!
A SuperDear had to come eventually :D

Yeah... the finish on RL buildings tends to vary, but I've noticed most of the stores are just painted concrete, albeit a very thick paint, much like Repco  ???

Also, that logo is a little out-of-date. Supercheap subtly changes changed it only within the last few years I think.

Quick Google Images search turned this one up:
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.6thgear.mchaustralia.com%2FOther%2520Images%2FSupercheap%2520Icon.jpg&hash=4ff27be2a2bdc9fd8406f2789c586e55378c735a)
(That's the Red letters on white, the signs are usually white letters on red like in the image below, IDK why all the individual logos are different from the store ones)

And this store:
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ferret.com.au%2Fodin%2Fimages%2F210251%2FGamma-Solutions-provides-mobile-computers-to-Supercheap-Autos-210251.jpg&hash=84641a6ea9a774652385c3f8fe8d738d1693d0cd)

But that's only the new colour scheme. I'm sure there are still plenty of stores out there that still use the old one (Supercheap doesn't usually update unless it really needs to for the benefit of the non-Aussies amongst us).

This is one Google found for me, Apparently it's the Darwin store which must still use the original style:
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcache.virtualtourist.com%2F1911720-Supercheap_Auto-Darwin.jpg&hash=670dddea086e77f503337a3e29f16a60f9c0c576)

I don't really know what to make of that cream though...
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: deadwoods on October 05, 2010, 07:33:20 PM
Looks like another Aussie retail series on the go. Once you've got the basic box and entry working you can easily create a set with different graphics (take a drive on the weekend, you'll be amazed at the number of chains you see that you take for granted). Then you can create a couple of growable lots and let the game randomly put one of the buildings on (I wish I remember how to do things like this). Looking good.

Here's an idea, a drive through bottle shop. There are heaps of chains, like Dan Mrurphy's and Thirsty Camel, you could splash on the same generic model.
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: thingfishs on October 07, 2010, 01:40:38 PM
Thanks for your replies guys :thumbsup:

jmyers: The sign should be casting even more of a shadow than that, but I temporarily moved them in a bit to avoid being able to see the logo texture repeating on the other side of the box. Yes your keen eye did perceive a gradient, I have made it a bit more pronounced this time (btw I am using photoshop CS4 and am comfortable with using layers.) As for the walls, I'm not sure how best to handle it. In colour they are basically pure white, with little texture (it may be stucco, I don't know enough about such things). I know how harsh straight white is in game so what I had there was just an attempt to darken it to a suitable degree...
The "orange" (actually red) "foundation" is just the paint scheme.

I tried a little further:

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2F900XL.jpg&hash=818fef0a5548bcf96fb557e3306724ee21a4e878)

jdenm8: Yeah I came across those new ones when I googled for logos for this project. However this look is unfamiliar and the building I am basing this on still has the old scheme:

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FDOsmX.jpg&hash=a10051caa57c3b08209f4318e0cbd8b2370a8416)

The cream/white is a tricky one...

deadwoods: You're right about the number of chains out there, I think I will make Supercheap Auto into The Good Guys next. As for the bottle shop idea, I'd be lying if I said they weren't on the list, but a little encouragement goes a long way. There are quite a few different designs of bottle-o's (how exactly do you spell that?) out there but this is what I have gone with:



(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FkF1Q2.jpg&hash=26d13c1bae450b22c67cdddd6ceb9b2ed8bdb244)      (https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FbdUhP.jpg&hash=9c33699ff591725818c63ac73ba1865434110cb9)
Thirsty Camel


(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2Fyy3eB.jpg&hash=c4c69bda3bd48dbcdab0e512aa65a5cd87ce03c0)
BWS




There will be more brands...

Any requests? (please provide pictures)

Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: dobdriver on October 07, 2010, 05:14:57 PM

Wow Things,


These are looking great and to have that familiar around the corner feel is just a bonus!
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: thingfishs on October 07, 2010, 06:14:08 PM
cheers Dobs, :thumbsup:

although that around the corner feel isn't so much a bonus as the prime objective. ;)

Here are another couple of brands, possibly just South Australian, I'm not sure. The greatly named "Booze Brothers" and Sip 'n Save, both gradually declining in presence as Thirsty Camel, BWS & Dan Murphy's slowly take over. Now I'm thinking these are looking too big, but 1x2 just seems too small...
They also need signs.

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2F7s2Ji.jpg&hash=abc2da5b0cf40c7566ea00a254ee62d32e099b9a)
Sip 'n Save

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2F5omz8.jpg&hash=7af39760e73347f2bacbb154db14009adf245d92)
Booze Brothers
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: dobdriver on October 07, 2010, 08:57:36 PM


Yeah Things I know what you mean about that size issue, Some are like a garden shed on a big lot and others are pretty big like those you have.

And we all know why... They gotta carry a lot of piss to slake the thirsty horde


Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: deadwoods on October 07, 2010, 10:32:03 PM
The scale looks fine. The car drive through section seems to match up nicely with the cars on the next lot. As mentioned these things come in all sizes, and yours looks about midrange. They look like a low capacity cs$ building.

I like the different colour combinations, and the signs on the side are great, but the brickwork on the side doesn't work for me (just my impression). Have you thought about a rendered side ( like it was built from beser block) and splashing a larger logo on the sides? I can picture that camel or the booze brothers.
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: thingfishs on October 21, 2010, 02:36:17 AM
Well I've had a good play around with the bottle-o's. The named brands are still coming but the first through the blocks is a new business, The Drunk Apple; named in honour of it's most frequent patron, drunkapple/dobdriver. ;)

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FM06zq.jpg&hash=071e5171a22dd96e8928e4a24466bd49c7ef152c)

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FN1IIA.jpg&hash=c0fdb4597afd67e6746ccd69087dff7dc45bb903)

deadwoods: thanks for your thoughts. I am now using a mixture of walls for the set - plain render with signs, brick with signs and the painted characters where appropriate. These are CS$.

I have tried to illuminate the signs along the edge of the roof (as a RKT4 using NightTimeChange property - with the value set to x01), but they're not showing up. Also is there an easy way to position the effect green diamonds in the LE?
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: jmyers2043 on October 21, 2010, 04:34:20 AM
Hey Thingfish

The new version is looking good! I am hoping that you'll use some HD props for your next building. Here is a shot of a sign that I did for a motel. The sign, being small, is not a large file and is the perfect use of that technology. I don't often zoom in close like this during game play but I am usually hoping to see something in greater detail when I do.

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi148.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fs26%2Fjmyers2043%2FWade_03.jpg&hash=800acf12c54998ec480d14820f062e1ad4def884)



- Jim
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: jdenm8 on October 21, 2010, 05:53:11 AM
Looks good! There's a couple around here that were prominent for a while... 'Bottle-O' (literally), 'Liquor Legends' and 'Cellarbrations' are three that spring to mind.
'The Fridge' is one I always remember for their ads though :P

EDIT: Hm... The Fridge doesn't seem to exist... Oh wait, thanks to the wonders of Out-Of-Date Google StreetView pictures, there's still a pic of one near me:
http://maps.google.com/maps?t=h&hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=-27.612449,152.80066&spn=0.001048,0.002642&z=19
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: thingfishs on October 21, 2010, 10:25:17 AM
Thanks guys :thumbsup:

jdenm8: Thanks for the requests, cellarbrations & Bottle-O are on the list (although a second pack is looking likely for a little down the track; I am getting a little sick of these &mmm). I had a look at the Fridge, and got some photos (thanks). However it looks like it's more of an alcohol supermarket, a opposed to a drive-thru. At some point I may do a full scale Dan Murphy's and could then easily re-skin it with the fridge.

jmyers: Thanks for your thoughts. I agree with you, and will try to make as much of the signage HD, as possible.

Here's 3 more real bottle-o brands: BWS (Beer Wine Spirits), Thirsty Camel & Sip 'n Save. I am slowly getting how to make the signs on the edge of the roof look like they are internally lit.

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FDsSaY.jpg&hash=78ed6edb99d6dd515cfe00b65900ed931da2030c)

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FUkOD8.png&hash=dc19b601683384da693b03bab8fe69cb86587d5a)
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: dobdriver on October 21, 2010, 01:54:01 PM

I don't believe it, I'm immortalised in SC4!!!

That's a great looking logo Things old mate, I luv it, and the cops look like they luv it too. Thanks old mate. (https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2Fk0JPG.gif&hash=8f9b2898b4d1583a1e58117255c3943e79245e79)


(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Femoticons2.yolasite.com%2Fresources%2Fwinnersmiley.gif&hash=f0a794e1bcca259770ae2709a66810033be07404) Chin Chin, the drinks are on the house!!  (https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Femoticons2.yolasite.com%2Fresources%2Fbeer.gif&hash=efcad285295468fed6dcb3a404aa277bc960bc5b)(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Femoticons2.yolasite.com%2Fresources%2Fbeer.gif&hash=efcad285295468fed6dcb3a404aa277bc960bc5b)(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Femoticons2.yolasite.com%2Fresources%2Fbeer.gif&hash=efcad285295468fed6dcb3a404aa277bc960bc5b)(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Femoticons2.yolasite.com%2Fresources%2Fbeer.gif&hash=efcad285295468fed6dcb3a404aa277bc960bc5b)
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: jdenm8 on October 21, 2010, 03:50:17 PM
Well, I can't speak of other The Fridge stores (That was the only one I knew of) but that one did* have a Drive-Thru, it just wasn't really visible from the road. You can just see the awning slightly further west down the road.

*did in the fact that that building no longer exists.
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: thingfishs on October 22, 2010, 02:13:53 AM
You're most welcome drunky :thumbsup: As much as I mainly love having real world businesses in game, it's been fun creating a new one. It can also be fun resurrecting them, as is the case with "The Fridge Barn". Thanks for the suggestion jdenm8; although little like the actual building, at least the logo and colours are there.

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FrxR5H.png&hash=f8e4f60eddc93b6d0e429b42370142528cf7cb04)
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: jdenm8 on October 22, 2010, 04:01:39 AM
Believe me, it's my pleasure. :thumbsup:
Those Dan Murphy's/Harry Brown's/So-On Liquor Supermarkets are too common for my tastes.

You've done an excellent job on all the buildings here.
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: thingfishs on October 22, 2010, 02:49:06 PM
Thanks a lot jden mate :), although there will be a Dan Murphys as well (there's no escape... ;))


Here's another one you requested, and almost the first actually finished one, Cellarbrations.

It has, as jmyers suggested (thanks, and great sign btw), all HD signage, some of which is "internally lit" at night. The problem is this black line running through one of the HD renders on the side of the building. Does anyone know what this is? At first I thought it might be a tessellation line but it's in the model.

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FHdXU4.jpg&hash=5e6ed610d35a5f8b5c5d57591d09cbd4e8b38323)  (https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FW8qr5.jpg&hash=dbe24e3b25ce575507751031442df34b0e5b65c3)  (https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FQ63YN.jpg&hash=95e0e04d9677ea272b7f18fc4fe7282616629557)



(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2F09H4Y.jpg&hash=77ce1b1a593e4e2636db771a5b395b28f48e40ab)  (https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FVHeJO.jpg&hash=a196da30efe082b529d09870b43d74da85b8a98a)

Zoom 6/HD - The black line can be seen in the day shot, diagonal across the three ads.
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: thingfishs on October 23, 2010, 10:00:28 AM
well maybe the black line was just a glitch as it didn't re-occur. Here is another brand, becoming ubiquitous in parts of Australia, Dan Murphys:

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FX6Q3x.jpg&hash=4dfbec8bbf4e9e65dcf877715d10ab7714c68a2f)  (https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FqaAXo.jpg&hash=f42c14d8b050aa254976d2a5dbe4b403cd908d6b)


(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2F34acE.jpg&hash=4a2977b4d2776151a1ac7beff4626fc0c8f721f3)
Z6/HD
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: Earth quake on October 24, 2010, 08:31:49 AM
Really great gas station.  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: Aldini10 on October 24, 2010, 09:34:58 AM
Wow! I say these are exquisite buildings you are creating here. I cannot wait until they are released! &apls
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: jmyers2043 on October 25, 2010, 07:08:11 PM
Hey Thingfish .. How about a couple of sign making ideas!? Hope you don't mind.

A cement foundation at the base. I also made a flange and simulated some bolts using cylinders. Basic shapes. Nothing fancy. At the top I used a box to simulate a square flange then made some cross members. The horizontal members are boxes with 10 length segments. The diagonals are lines with the mesh function turned on. The diameter of the mesh is .1, the number of sides is 4 and I used a 45 degree rotation. Remember the 10 lenght segments? I used those as vertex points when making the line. And quick as a wink my line looks like several diagonal boxes but the time gmax'ing was only a fraction of a minute.   

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi148.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fs26%2Fjmyers2043%2Fsign1.jpg&hash=23bbf97d1e7e31606a5b9647301135ae3066ddb2)

I used a pair of boxes for each sign. The back of the sign has a sheet metal texture but wood would also work. The second square is slightly smaller and presto ... a border or frame around the sign surface.

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi148.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fs26%2Fjmyers2043%2Fsign2.jpg&hash=f33c60a3a003a874ba5eea6d05f4f467ad1ca7bf)

Additional details could be some spot lights. A utility or junction box at the base where the workers make electrical connections.

Good Luck.


- Jim




Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: thingfishs on November 22, 2010, 10:41:11 AM
Quote from: Earth quake on October 24, 2010, 08:31:49 AM
Really great gas station.  :thumbsup:

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Femoticons2.yolasite.com%2Fresources%2Fbiglol.gif&hash=10225ee8a3675ef857466058c62cbebc9107b6ab) As someone rightly pointed out over at ST, only as fuel for humans.  ;) Those are drive through alcohol shops, something that prior to making them, I assumed were common everywhere. As it turns out Australians are a bunch of lazy pissheads, who would've thought. ;)


Thanks aldini :thumbsup: and thanks heaps for that jmyers &apls, you can make custom tutorials for me anytime.
Agreed, my signs there are a bit basic (a box and a pole). I've been adamant for a long time that Shottesbrooke, my first BAT, would be my first release.
Now that said release is upon us I can get around to finishing off the pile of other things I have that are nearly done (including those poles).



Well the big day has finally arrived, I can't quite believe it.

A short chronology of the project:

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FCofLy.jpg&hash=6f02f55cdc950f6403da963da67bcd8922467325)
late oct. 09: Perhaps the most exciting moment I have ever experienced in SC4 creation, the first time I got my first BAT to appear in game.

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FZEDUv.jpg&hash=3144c604e707e01def208e4867d6d8aefe5058f7)
12/11/09: The state of the winery a week or so later when I first posted for help here at SC4D

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2F3Fjw7.jpg&hash=dd6c9266006c095f7dbd1f99ab54aaa22ace2f53)
23/11/10: The finished product

A huge thanks to Dobs (dobdriver/drunkapple) (LEGEND) who has performed miracles in getting this thing ready for release; dude, you've got to come and visit shottesbrooke one day for some serious drinking. (https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2F5211p.jpg&hash=9ed0d7f375b75cbd5e77b5747aea39224c289447)

Plus here is a copy of the other thanks from the readme, I owe all you guys and girls a drink :thumbsup: (come and visit Shottesbrooke anytime!)

Where do I begin... In the first place enormous thanks goes to those that helped me through the painful process of learning to BAT. Absolute numero uno in this was gottago. (LEGEND) Special thanks also to jmyers, couchpotato, cogeo and kwakelaar for their mountains of help and advice. :thumbsup:

Thanks to Barby for advice and some mod work, such as the naming and organising of the props.
 
On top of that thanks to joelyboy911, Adroman, hooha47, mattb325, T Wrecks, Xxdita, tag_one, jasoncw, Diggis, Choco, Orange_o, Ripplejet, Puresim and mrdazza for help in my threads (and elsewhere). :thumbsup:
 
Thanks to Girafe from team TSC for his excellent red tractor model (with night lights).

And lastly thanks to anyone I've forgotten.


On the STEX shortly...
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: deadwoods on November 22, 2010, 02:21:22 PM
Those bottle shops look great!  &apls &apls &apls

Love the roof texture; much better than the one's I used. The colours and logos turned out well, esp. the CellarBrations, Dan Murphy's and the blue one (we don't have that brand around here). Are they growable in a building family (means you can't use a separate prop sign, but that's no biggie)?
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: Girafe on November 22, 2010, 02:38:21 PM
What a pleasure to see this vinery finally ready to get uploaded
special thanks to you  &apls &apls &apls

ps: one day I will make HD vines, it will be extra with the vinery  ::)
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: jdenm8 on November 22, 2010, 09:09:12 PM
Quote from: deadwoods on November 22, 2010, 02:21:22 PMand the blue one (we don't have that brand around here)

Ha ha, yeah. The Fridge was gobbled up by the larger mobs years ago. I get the feeling that that one I pointed out was the last one.
They had that ad where people would bring in all kinds of meals and the guy behind the counter would give them drinks to match. That was until the old woman with the Chihuahua :P

That particular one was demolished and there's a Dan Murphy's Liquor Supermarket there now.
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: thingfishs on November 23, 2010, 09:32:46 AM
thanks guys :thumbsup:

I've spent the last 24 hours trying in vain to get the winery uploaded to the STEX.  :'( I've tried three different internet connections, various ways of reformatting and repackaging it - but the uploading please wait dialog just never goes away. ()what() ()what() (all this after successfully uploading the TD essentials pack)

Girafe: It sure will be, when it finally happens. ??? I did promise HD vines to manchou at one point as well..

deadwoods: Thanks, I'm glad you like them (they are, after all, our offspring ;)) The bottle shops haven't quite been finished off and at this point are all separate. I think I'm inclined to keep it like this though so people can pick and choose what brands they want (especially if the bottle shops in general are growing like weeds). Plus I'll be able to have separate signs.

Has anyone had similar symptoms when trying to upload to the STEX? Any help will be repaid in ways best not mentioned publicly.  ;)
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: mrbisonm on November 23, 2010, 05:51:48 PM
Good Grief....I don't believe it. You've done it!
Wow, that was faster than mine.....lol. I know, a little sarcastic but still, I'm not better at all. I have BATs out there in my computer since 5 years, waiting for me to find the time and will to finish them......omg :(.

Great, glad that you made it. :thumbsup: I have been keeping an eye on this project, although I have never commented, I came regularily to see what you're up to. You can be proud, having started from nothing (not even knowing BATting) to finishing a great BAT that you can now upload. Congrats, and don't stop now, I'll keep watching.... ;)

Fred


EDIT: Downloaded....looks great, it will be in my MD soon! Thanks.
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: thingfishs on November 24, 2010, 08:25:05 AM
Quote from: mrbisonm on November 23, 2010, 05:51:48 PM
Good Grief....I don't believe it. You've done it!


Yes.. I.. did...


(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.clipartof.com%2Fsmall%2F62387-Royalty-Free-RF-Clipart-Illustration-Of-A-Flexing-Bodybuilder-Guy-Over-A-Red-And-Yellow-Circle.jpg&hash=757bd5c09a9228038d5e7e519ff6bdc9bdfdd982)


um, actually I didn't. Dobs logged in as me and got it to upload, but that's neither here or there now...

Shottes is on the STEX (https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.myemoticons.com%2Fimages%2Femotions%2Fpositive%2Fwoohoo-.gif&hash=dd73b3b6932a6b02bbbd77b3dc1a3877476ed171) (https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.elflady.com%2Forlandolove%2Fimages%2Fsmilies%2Fwoohoo.gif&hash=452ac43314ee9f24f4f9224067a6a317a266990a)

Thanks Mr. Bison, I don't believe it either. Cheers for the support.  :thumbsup:

And please let me know when the winery appears in your MD, that would be cool to see.
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: dobdriver on November 29, 2010, 03:24:59 AM

QuoteYes.. I.. did...

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.clipartof.com%2Fsmall%2F62387-Royalty-Free-RF-Clipart-Illustration-Of-A-Flexing-Bodybuilder-Guy-Over-A-Red-And-Yellow-Circle.jpg&hash=757bd5c09a9228038d5e7e519ff6bdc9bdfdd982)



Yes you did, and congratualations too. What a fine achievement and a great addition to my game, Thankyou old mate. I did at times wonder if it would make it and I am really glad that all the hard yards you put into it did not go to waste.

Well done Things. Here's to many more. We will have to get on the piss one day!!

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Femoticons2.yolasite.com%2Fresources%2Fbeer.gif&hash=efcad285295468fed6dcb3a404aa277bc960bc5b)(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Femoticons2.yolasite.com%2Fresources%2Fbeer.gif&hash=efcad285295468fed6dcb3a404aa277bc960bc5b)(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Femoticons2.yolasite.com%2Fresources%2Fbeer.gif&hash=efcad285295468fed6dcb3a404aa277bc960bc5b)(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Femoticons2.yolasite.com%2Fresources%2Fbeer.gif&hash=efcad285295468fed6dcb3a404aa277bc960bc5b)
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: mightygoose on November 29, 2010, 04:23:33 AM
good work, and about bloody time.
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: thingfishs on December 20, 2010, 11:10:54 AM
Quote from: mightygoose on November 29, 2010, 04:23:33 AM
good work, and about bloody time.

I'll say.

Here are some simple shops I've made, not quite done yet, but most of the way. They are slightly oversized still, some will get some roof junk, and some colours will be desaturated. Also my verandahs are too wide and the occasional street lamp pokes through them. As always, constructive advice is much appreciated.

These are all RL businesses from around Adelaide (Australia). The actual business I modelled is Absolute Value Clothing - the rest are reskins of that. There is so much variety in commercial areas and these will just add a little more to the mix (these are all 1x1 and I will probably make versions of each for 1x3 which is even rarer).

I do intend to do at least a few more for the pack and will happily consider any requests for LW-MW aussie stores that might fit this format.

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FgkIVj.jpg&hash=686bc7fbb0d036e4992f7705a74d5bc1131a78a5)

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FfC39i.jpg&hash=1c51221421cf4083918a74e1825274f78ff79378)

From L-R

CIBO (Cafe) 

Wog in a Box (italian fast food)

Absolute Value Clothing (recycled clothing)

Pumps and Systems (they sell pumps, and possibly systems)

Mac Alert (mac computer sales)

Oh and these shops are all painted single bright colours; that's what caught my eye and made me take a picture of them (as I was driving past...)
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: deadwoods on December 20, 2010, 01:53:20 PM
Nice! &apls
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: thingfishs on January 02, 2011, 02:48:19 PM
Thanks deadwoods - with all our work combined the streets are really starting to look fair dinkum.

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FkC3hV.jpg&hash=1c81aca8622a8e9f025b0d3f0eb3e210ac3e0810)

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FZI8Mw.jpg&hash=29e996a1085ace709fe6f670c26ed7a98be857c0)

This project has grown to the point I now have 20 businesses to bring to the game. These are all RL businesses - some are one off, local stores; some are national chains and one at least (fujifilm) is international. I have discovered many of these taking photos as I drive around the city - not a practice I necessarily recommend, but very fruitful. ;)

There are still some finishing touches to be done but these are basically how they will appear. Some extra roof junk will be added to a few buildings, a couple of the windows desaturated...

What I am most curious to hear people's opinions on is whether any of these should be lotted as other than LW. In the case of CIBO coffee for eg., it is certainly not LW in RL - but the buildings will probably fit in better in game using LW. What do people think?

I intend to turn these into 1x1, 1x2, 1x3 and possibly 1x4 lots (it might be unlikely in RL but there's just not enough options for this kind of zoning in game (at the LW end of the spectrum that is).

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FhRSDB.jpg&hash=88aa3e3afbcd3557b70befaa27fdc57de9fff5de)

1. Amcal Chemist  2. Absolute Value Clothing  3. Cheap as Chips (discount variety store/$2 shop) 4. Cheques Cashed 5. CIBO Cafe

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FBLcJB.jpg&hash=ad3a33beb93f8aedf08facaf1dd96728d97422de)

6. Flinders Bakery  7. Con & Poppy's Snack Bar  8. Smokemart (cigarettes)  9. Jack's Fish & Chips  10. EB Games (video games)

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FQt0bU.jpg&hash=0a438cc29a9b41265eb1ff7a7bb85557f5e7bad7)

11. Wog in a Box (italian fast food)  12. Video Ezy (video rental)  13. Got One (fishing supplies)  14. Pumps & Systems (plumbing supplies) 15. Newsagent

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FsUgBk.jpg&hash=e4632e4175d2f9e5d970bbfad8670eb9d848a458)

16. MacAlert (macintosh products)  17. Fujifilm (photo processing & printing)  18. Dick Smith Electronics  19. Crazy Johns (mobile phones)  20. Copyfax (printing)


and here's a shot of a row of them in a city:

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FW5udN.jpg&hash=b822cdd0ef8678cee00d3415ad0b06845c3bf302)

Any feedback welcomed :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: jdenm8 on January 02, 2011, 05:33:56 PM
I like how you used the old Dick Smith logo. The chain doesn't deserve that name now.

All I could say is to change the dimensions of some of the signs so they look less squished or stretched, the Video Ezy, Crazy John's and Dick Smith's ones for example.
The stretch/squish is only small though.
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: killerclone on January 02, 2011, 10:13:43 PM
Wow! These all look great. Love the rusty corrugated iron on some of the roofs, and just about everything else about them. I could see some people possibly having a problem with the name of that Italian joint, but since it is based on a real place, maybe they should take their complaints up with Nick Giannopoulis ;)

Looking back through this thread, loving everything in it so far. And really looking forward to the day my Sims can order an Aussie Whopper and a Rooster Roll.
Damn I've wanted a Hungry Jacks in my cities for sooo long now.

Good stuff mate :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: serebii666 on January 06, 2011, 02:58:31 PM
Those look great but a little too clean... Try dirting up the textures and adding a bit more rood junk But otherwise great job!  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: sam_kan on February 07, 2011, 02:01:52 PM
WoW they all looks great, hey may I ask where do I download them? I want such bats in my city, thanx, and keep up the great work
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: thingfishs on February 08, 2011, 04:12:25 AM
Hi Sam,

thanks for the compliment :thumbsup: (I must say, they've already added a lot to my districts)

These aren't yet available - for some reason the light rig in my Max setup isn't working and I got frustrated and moved onto other things (using gmax). I had considered releasing these as is but I don't think I can (too much of a perfectionist). All I can say is hang in there, once I get back to Max those shops and the bottle-o's are top of the list for completion.

Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: cammo2003 on February 10, 2011, 07:51:39 PM
They do look great.

Any chance of versions with deeper buildings on a 1x2 lot? I usually zone my commercial strips as 1x2 lots, is all. You could probably just tack on cheap looking extensions on the back (the back side of these sorts of shops never looks particularly pretty, in fact they're almost without variation bordering on filthy, even in upscale neighbourhoods.
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: thingfishs on May 04, 2017, 12:53:19 PM
Hi to everyone, it's been seven years or so but such is life. After some encouragement from raz444 over at ST I have decided to release some of the projects I worked on years ago. First I am releasing a set of 20 small low/medium wealth Australian shops in 1x1 and newly lotted 1x2 versions. Here's an example:

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FaXuEt0P.jpg&hash=1b9e618aa519ade30c8ade24b9356cd262410db5)

These don't have nightlights, but I'm not going back and redoing them now.
One problem that was noticed was a lack of shadows in game from the buildings...

If anyone was particularly interested in anything else from back in the day. let me know. (I think I'll get around to doing the drive through bottle shops as well).

It was interesting having a look at the start of this thread - ah the memories... (hopefully there's still some familiar faces around these parts).
Cheers  :thumbsup:

*EDIT: I've forgotten how to display the photos full size but there are two options to see it... ()what())
**EDIT: vester sorted me out
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: Kitsune on May 04, 2017, 03:31:03 PM
Those look awesome... remind me of the shops I saw in Manly when I was visiting Sydney last year. Love on how you Aussies call Pharmacies "Chemists" :)
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: metarvo on May 04, 2017, 05:58:03 PM
Good to see you back around!  :)  You're doing a nice job on these shops — there's even one of those payday loan shark businesses like we have in almost every large shopping center around here.
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: thingfishs on May 05, 2017, 06:22:49 AM

kitsune: Cheers  :) Hmm, is Chemist an Aussie word? Do you use Chemist to mean something else? Pharmacy has crept into our vernacular a bit but chemist is still the standard.

metarvo: thanks mate  :) Those places are borderline evil, but as you say, there's plenty of them out there and we strive for reality (grim though it may be...)
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: c.p. on May 05, 2017, 11:43:28 AM
Those are great little commercial BATs.  I'm glad you came back to release them. :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: vester on May 05, 2017, 01:51:45 PM
Quote from: thingfishs on May 04, 2017, 12:53:19 PM
*EDIT: I've forgotten how to display the photos full size but there are two options to see it... ()what())

Click on the sesond icon (https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsc4devotion.com%2Fforums%2FThemes%2FWindows7_20RC4%2Fimages%2Fbbc%2Fimg.gif&hash=87470dd1e543650847fe7bdf712774f4d9cce148) in the second row above in the post reply.

Then you get a set of img tags. Inside them you paste the picture link (you can copy it form Imgur on the right side after uploading the image).

That would look like this:
[img]http://i.imgur.com/aXuEt0P.jpg[/img]

Nice shops. Not sure they will fit in any of my cities.
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: praiodan on May 06, 2017, 04:33:56 AM
A wonderfully compiled set. Hooray for more variety.  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: thingfishs on May 06, 2017, 07:15:53 AM
Cheers everyone :thumbsup:

c.p.: Thanks, it looks like they will be useful for some people  :) - if I can sort out the current issues that is...
And while I have you, I'm not sure if I've ever thanked your personally but your terrain controllers and the 2009 tree pack were (literally) game changers for me back in the day, (as a nature oriented person they had a huge impact on my willingness to suspend disbelief and embrace creating "SimCountry", so to speak, so: cheers :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:)

vester: Thanks for your help with the image - it worked, but I'm still missing something. I had already tried doing exactly as you describe - however, the link from the right hand side of the page in imgur didn't work (no i. in front of the address, no .jpg after it and a different number from the actual image...??)
(Ignore this, I can do it now, I was just wondering why it wasn't as straight forward as expected).

praiodan: Cheers mate - hopefully I can get them out sooner rather than later.




At the eleventh hour there have been some unexpected issues. I have finished lotting all 20 businesses in their 1x2 versions (the 1x1 versions are purely a building without any props).

I figured I was basically done, but now I realise that when I do the "cntrl X/buildingplop" thing that a handful of the 1X1 lots aren't showing up. I couldn't figure it out and tried ultimately creating a new desc file from the model file of one - turned it into a new 1X1 CS$ lot, and it STILL didn't show up. ()what()

Now I expect that I've done something wrong (maybe some conflicting numbers somewhere) but am unsure to best approach to identify/rectify the situation...? (I'd really prefer to not have to relot the 1X2 lots if I can but the 1X1's are easily done).

Thanks you if you can point me in the right direction.

*Edit: After another look I am a bit closer to figuring this one out. I now can see that the 1X1 and lots of some of them are being cancelled out by their 1X2 equivalent - when I removed the 1X2 lots the 1X1 lots appeared, but when I put them back they vanished again.
Clearly I've stuffed up with the numbers somewhere....
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: thingfishs on May 18, 2017, 06:18:02 AM
Well, I didn't figure the issue out. Some things are happening again that I don't understand and before I get too annoyed, or put it in the too hard basket, I thought I'd run it past you folk (and at ST). Once again, some of my buildings aren't showing up in game (via cntrl X/buildingplop) and I can't understand why. My approach to lot creation might be to blame, but I thought it was a valid method. What I've done is:

1: create a growable lot in SC4PIM (having adjusted the filling degree) in order to get what I gather are the generally preferred stats*

2: open the lot in the Maxis LE (I find using it more convenient/intuitive), do the lot work, and save it.

3: open up one of these previously created lots, replace the building, adjust the props, and save as a new file.

Is this an okay approach? Should all my files be showing up? If more specific info is needed let me know. I would also be happy to pass on the relevant files if someone more knowledgeable about such things could take a look and tell me what's going on...

(also regarding the stats, I know I read about some of this stuff ten years ago but I'd like to get my head around quite why the stats in the SC4PIM are the way they are - the difference to the Maxis approach in the numbers is stark. I've done some searching but haven't found the page where this is spelt out - presumably by ripplejet).
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: twalsh102 on May 18, 2017, 08:55:38 AM
After reading (and re-reading) your last two posts, a couple of things stand out:

1.  In your May 6 post (in the edit section), you mention removing some lots which causes some of the missing lots to reappear.  This would be indicative of multiple lots having the same TGI.  During game load, any object that has the same TGI of an earlier object will overwrite that earlier object, essentially causing it to no longer exist as far as the game is concerned.

2.  In your May 18 post, where you discuss your methodology, Step three appears to be the root of the problem.  Even though you may be saving with a new file name, if you are not changing at least the new lot's IID, then you are essentially creating multiple lots with the same TGI, which will cause overwrites.

As far as the reasons why the stats applied by PIM-X are different than similar buildings created by Maxis, there are two primary reasons (if I remember correctly):

1.  Maxis occupancy stats (and those applied by the Maxis LE) are based solely on the LOD of the model (and possibly some hard-coded default fill level), whereas PIM-X (by allowing you to modify the fill level) allows for a more reasonable LOD taking into account the shape and size of the actual building envelope.  A couple of extreme examples:
   An 100m tall office tower with a 50m antenna on its roof generates an LOD height of 150 meters.  Occupancy stats would be generated based on a 150m tall building vs. one that is only 100m tall as far as usable floor space.
   Another building has a exterior ground footprint measuring 50m x 50m , but also includes and awning in front extending 20m over an entrance driveway.  Since the awning is part of the model, the LOD generated would be based on a footprint of 50 m x 70,m causing possibly inflated occupancy stats.
   Another 100-story office tower has the first three stories with a ground footprint of 100m x 100m, while the remaining 97 stories only have a footprint of 50m x 50m.  The LOD generated would be based on 100m x 100m x 100 stories, vs. 100m x 100m x 3 stories + 50m x 50m x 97 stories.

2.  If Maxis did have a hard-coded fill level, this could cause occupancy of many buildings to be understated.  Again, being able to change the fill level to more closely match the building design allows for more "accurate" occupancy stats.  I find it interesting that the default fill level applied by PIM-X is 0.5.  Could this be what Maxis was using?

3.  PIM-X stats are also generated to be more compatible with CAM and the increased number of development stages it provides.

Tim
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: thingfishs on May 18, 2017, 11:08:00 AM
Thanks for taking the time twalsh102 :),

Quote from: twalsh102 on May 18, 2017, 08:55:38 AM
if you are not changing at least the new lot's IID, then you are essentially creating multiple lots with the same TGI, which will cause overwrites.

Look I figured it was something like this but I still don't understand why, when I made a complete set of 40 lots all via the same method, that most of them DID still show up (but not all)...???
Also I'm sure I have seen experienced people endorse the "save as/Maxis LE" approach - but maybe just in specific situations. I use Reader but have never altered these values and the user guide doesn't make me feel overly confident...:

File Info: this can be and is often a very important function to use at times (warning: for advanced users though). This button relates to the address of a file (which is also shown in the Readers Main Window itself in the left panel, under the Type/Group/Instance columns). This address is in the form of "Type" "Group" "Instance" IDs (or TGI for short). Each of these TGI values is specific to the game in one way or another, with the Type & Group generally representing the type of file it is. The Instance ID of each file though generally holds a more specific purpose. No two files that are different will nor should have the same TGI (as a whole). There is an Edit function within this file button itself and allows you to change the TGI of the file. Though it is strongly recommended that you do not change this at all unless you know what you're doing and/or feel comfortable doing so.

Can anyone help me fit into either of the categories in the previous sentence?


As for the SC4PIM/filling degree data, thanks. It's been years since I've been around all this stuff and I'd gotten things back to front in my head (I thought as a general rule that SC4PIM increased the amount of capacity satisfied).

As a test I created 3 new desc & lots using the same building:

1: Maxis PIM = 54 jobs
2: SC4PIM (default) = 28 jobs
3: SC4PIM (adjusted filling degree to .08) = 43 jobs

Coming from a real world POV, it's hard to accept that Con & Poppy's Snack Bar for example, a small store run by, well, Con & Poppy (i.e two members of staff total), has 40 odd employees.
But if this is how the engine works, then so be it. (It would be nice if the sums added up a bit better though...).

Cheers :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: twalsh102 on May 18, 2017, 07:45:55 PM
As for the first "why", i.e. "...most of them DID still show up (but not all)...", I could have no answer to that without sitting down with you as you are creating lots and watching what you are doing.  But it does come down to what is said in the file info section of your post:  "The Instance ID of each file though generally holds a more specific purpose. No two files that are different will nor should have the same TGI (as a whole). "  In general it is sufficient to change the Instance part of the TGI (also known as the IID).

Although the warning "Though it is strongly recommended that you do not change this at all unless you know what you're doing and/or feel comfortable doing so." could cause one trepidation while still learning the process, you really should use the "Generate New Instance" function rather than the "Edit" function.  The edit function requires that you already know (or are copying from elsewhere) what you are going to edit

Reader actually makes it relatively easy to change the IID of any exemplar (without using the edit function).  Once you have loaded a file containing exemplars (.SC4Lot, .SC4Desc, .dat), one needs only right-click the exemplar needing the new Instance ID, and click on "Generate New Instance" (make sure you have picked the correct exemplar as you get no warning of what is about to happen).  Make the same changes to any other exemplars that need changing.  Save the file.  That's all there is to it.

The key all comes down to making sure that multiple lots do not have the same IID.

The issue of occupancy often confuses people.  Although this game is a simulation, that does not equate to simulating real life.  I had the same conundrum you do (Real world vs. Maxis) the first time I checked the stats on what would be a 2-room residential shack in the real world, but it had an occupancy of 18 residents.  If you look at occupancy and jobs from a real-world POV, you will always be befuddled.  You just have to try and disconnect your brain from the real-world POV while playing, and especially while modding.  It all comes down to scale.  If most houses had real-world residency numbers (husband, wife, 2.3 kids, dog, parakeet), you would never be able to build enough houses to create a large worker population (don't forget that Maxis only counts @ 50% of the residential population as being available for jobs).  Likewise, if CS and CO buildings used job stats that reflected real-word situations, you would never be able to build up enough demand for more residents to move in.  The end result would make it impossible to build large cities, or ever get to the point where one started seeing skyscrapers..  So Maxis greatly inflated occupancy numbers.

SC4 can scale residential, CS, and CO areas relatively well.  However, when it comes to things like military bases, seaports, airports, and most major industrial areas, it just doesn't really work within the scale SC4 uses.  Some examples:
1.  The largest Maxis airport lot is 15 x 35 tiles (240m x 560m) for a Large International airport. In the real world, most major international airports would not fit within a large city square (4096m x 4096m).  The Hartsfield-Jackson Atlanta International Airport (arguably the busiest airport in the US) encompasses an area of almost 20 sq. km (including its surrounding service facilities).  A relatively empty Boeing 747 cannot take off from a runway shorter than about 1600m (or 100 tiles in length)
2.  The largest Maxis seaport is 6 x 11 tiles (96m x 176m).  The largest container ships currently in use have lengths up to 400m.  The largest oil tankers exceed 450m.  The part of the Port of Rotterdam built to serve such large vessels encompasses an area exceeding 50 sq. km.
3.  The Maxis army base is 12 x 12 tiles (192m x 192m).  At Fort Carson, Colorado (near where I live), most vehicle motor pools exceed this size, and there are more than 25 of them.  Fort Carson is currently home to more than 26,000 active duty soldiers.
4.  Maxis industrial lots can't hold a candle to real-world industrial areas.  The BMW USA factory near Greenville, South Carolina would almost fill a medium city square (at almost 3.74 sq. km).  This factory has a couple of buildings that would exceed 50 tiles in length if modeled accurately in SC4.

Tim
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: thingfishs on May 19, 2017, 03:53:52 AM
Thanks a lot for your comprehensive response there twalsh102 :thumbsup:

Your summation of the Maxis vs Real World situation puts everything in perspective, thanks.

As for the issue with the lots, I noticed when I tried to open them in Reader (the non working lots), and pressed the 'fill the list' button - that nothing came up. With the working ones they come up normally.
As I have lotted these alphabetically, and the non working ones start part way through the alphabet and continue until the end, it seems that some error created earlier on has been carried through the process...

Maybe the question I should have asked in the very first place was what would be the recommended approach to lotting 20 buildings in 1x1 & 1X2 variations? Is it to do as I've done and manually change the Instance ID afterwards or is there a better/more streamlined approach?

EDIT: Regardless, I have gone ahead and relotted each of the 20 1X1 lots individually via SC4PIM and have purely added a base texture in the Maxis LE and yes, they are all showing up. And I will go ahead and do the same with the 1X2's. The main reason I liked the save as approach was that, with the 1X2 lots, there were a lot of the same props that didn't have to be re-found - just re-positioned a bit. But the main thing is getting these done (properly though...)
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: twalsh102 on May 19, 2017, 08:19:11 AM
Streamlined is one of those relative terms.  Something that is streamlined to me may be very ponderous for you, and vice-versa.

A process could be deemed to be streamlined if it accomplishes a given task in the fewest possible steps.
A process could also be deemed to be streamlined if it takes more steps to accomplish a task, but the steps are less complicated and easier to remember, allowing the task to be accomplished in less time (i.e. not needing to read a set of instructions to accomplish each step).

I do have what I think would be a "streamlined" process in mind, but it involves using PIM-X only (I know, I read your comments).  But before I go into what I would hope is not a long-winded description of that process, I want to make sure it's crystalized in my mind what you're working with as a start point.  The following is what I think I've read in / intuited from your various posts:
1.  You've got separate .SC4Model files for each of 20 different buildings.
2.  Using PIM-X, you've created 20 separate .SC4Lot files (of whichever size you created first). 
3.  You would have then needed to create building exemplars for each lot in order to change the fill level of each building exemplar.  So you've now got 20 separate .SC4Desc files with appropriate fill levels.
4.  Your goal is to create 1x1 and 1x2 Lot versions for each building.

How far off the mark am I at this point?  What are the differences between versions other than lot size (more props, different props, placement of props)?  Were the non-working files created first or second for a particular building, or does it vary?  If a particular file is not showing anything when opened in Reader, it could be corrupted, and/or void of any contents.

FWIW, if the process you are using is what you are comfortable with (and it works consistently), as long as you manually change the IIDs for the Lot exemplars, you should be good to go.  If it isn't working consistently (and apparently it isn't), there's something wrong with the process someplace.

Also, if you don't mind me asking, what parts of using the PIM-X LE do you have the most problems with?  Also FWIW, I started with PIM-X LE without ever having used the Maxis LE.  I've tried to use the Maxis LE once or twice, and I found it very ponderous, non-user friendly / non-intuitive, and lacking in features.  A definite example of "To each, his own!", I guess.
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: thingfishs on May 21, 2017, 06:17:07 AM
Thanks again Tim,

I appreciate your thoughts on the subjectivity of the concept of a "streamlined" process, and you're absolutely right.
As it happens, I am comfortable now with the workflow that I've ended up with. More to the point, it turns out there were actually two simultaneous issues which made diagnosis much trickier. Yes, it does seem a lot file likely became corrupt and I kept reusing it, ending up with 15 odd corrupt files. So I'm glad that was discovered and with my new workflow such an issue, I think, would be an impossibility).


However
, and this may be my biggest blonde moment in the game yet (but there's been a few contenders ::)), it turns out that my first round of lots that I thought were being cancelled out BuildingPlop actually weren't. I haven't used BuildingPlop much as a player, (I'm very much a grower not a plopper), so this is probably a rookie mistake - but 9.5 times out of 10 when I checked on my buildings I could see both the 1x1 & 1X2 options. Every so often there would only seem to be a 1X2. But as I've eventually discovered, in those situations it's because it's hidden from view in the graphic - scroll up and voila!  &ops
While it might be tempting to keep this one to myself, it was really bugging me and caused many hours of unnecessary work - and if I can help someone else in the same situation...
Also, this version three will be a far superior product to that which could have been released so for that I am glad and I have a better workflow now so there should be less issues in the future - thanks a lot for your assistance.  :thumbsup:


Quote from: twalsh102 on May 19, 2017, 08:19:11 AM
The following is what I think I've read in / intuited from your various posts:
1.  You've got separate .SC4Model files for each of 20 different buildings.
2.  Using PIM-X, you've created 20 separate .SC4Lot files (of whichever size you created first). 
3.  You would have then needed to create building exemplars for each lot in order to change the fill level of each building exemplar.  So you've now got 20 separate .SC4Desc files with appropriate fill levels.
4.  Your goal is to create 1x1 and 1x2 Lot versions for each building.

How far off the mark am I at this point?

Yes, that's all spot on. I now have forty lots, all with adjusted filling degrees, all created individually - initially via PIM-X with the lot work done in the  LE. You're right again regarding another subjective term: intuitive. To be honest, I've never really given the PIM-X LE a proper go. I was already used to the  one so just the layout, separate work spaces, different hotkeys etc. with it were enough to put me off. I'm not actually aware of what makes it "a better LE" (grids/snapping rings a bell though)- but if it was worth the transition I'd probably give it a go.



I'm also now considering doing some of these (maybe five or ten of them) as a 1X3 lot with a dodgy little backyard. This is a quick mock-up using Maxis textures and flora:

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FVkB73YB.jpg&hash=9de98366dc3e48a0721bbbc5e9714d34a686a61e)
Does anyone have any thoughts on these? I figure the more variety in LW the better). I'm aware of fence mods - should I be adding a fence to the lots or letting it be done automatically? Also, should the default foundation threshold/elevation change settings be adjusted?

And before this turns into a novel, just some proof that I have been doing something. I was originally using about five deps. but with the prop making I've been doing I'll be able to get that down to two I reckon). Here's an example:

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FEAGiWhn.jpg&hash=b6b8e2c3e9111cef3ddfa82ded20828d291aef35)

P.S.: Actually there is one more thing. Something unexpected happened this evening while I was making props. After finishing a new model and bringing it into the LE it was a different prop that I had created days earlier. Then the next one I made was yet another prop I had made earlier.  ()what() I was able to work out that the instance number of the two models were the same and that it seemed BAT4MAX was naming them sequentially (e.g. 0x80000 - 0x90000) This could cause chaos - why are these numbers repeating?? Is it because I reinstalled BAT4MAX and it refreshed it's order? (EDIT: this problem was solved thanks to simmer2!)

Sorry for the long post, but there's a bit to get your head around in this game,
Cheers :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: thingfishs on June 07, 2017, 03:43:29 PM
Hi,

this is a new one, in tribute to my recently departed, and beloved, step-father Nick. It started out as his home but has mutated into an Australian pub (something I've long wanted in the game). Any thoughts on dimensions/scale etc (I've been staring for too long), or anything else?

Cheers,
Ryan.

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2Fdmjrlyp.jpg&hash=ae4c13dab0038b4876bcb096cbf1348e479e16c9)
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: vester on June 08, 2017, 02:16:12 AM
Maybe you could post a few picture of the RL building ?
Its hard to help you with dimensions without.

For height (from top floor to top floor, in general I use everything from 3.5 to 5 meters.
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: Krasner on June 08, 2017, 03:17:24 AM
@thingfishs That is very nice  :thumbsup: I tend to think that the balcony railings are a little bit too high compared to the doors and windows, but I agree with @vester, without a RL image it's hard to make a valid judgment.
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: mattb325 on June 08, 2017, 04:25:17 PM
You could post a real life pic as others have suggested, but when I take artistic license - as you are here - I usually just keep basic building codes in the back of my mind.

EG: Balcony railings are generally 1.2m from the ground (which is approx. 1.5m in SC4); for small buildings such as this I tend to keep the floor heights around 4.5-4.8m in game. But otherwise it's a good start, and pubs are definitely needed  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: thingfishs on June 08, 2017, 07:44:55 PM
Thanks for your thoughts everyone.  :thumbsup:

As far as a real life picture goes, that's a tricky one. Like Matt suggested, this is not a recreation exactly - I started out making Nick's place but have gone "off book", (to quote an excellent TV show: Community). So you'll have to judge this one without reference - I just hope that it looks proportionately (and otherwise) realistic/"SC4istic".

I will get my head around your respective thoughts (Vester & Matt) on numbers/measurements; I'm a very visual person: I'll work from a measurement for the initial wall or frame of reference, but from then on it's mostly done visually; but I'm not incapable of change... ;).

Krasner: You were absolutely right on the railing height (thanks) - hopefully I have got it right this time:

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FEJE63zu.jpg&hash=dff47269b5afd07d2c514e3970d4fce4137d6126)

Cheers,
Ryan.

Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: praiodan on June 10, 2017, 10:28:04 AM
Neat! Maybe the railing is still just a tad too high, but that might be just me. Still, a lot better than in the first picture already.  :)

When I model, I usually stick to RL dimensions as close as possible (although some smaller details need to be overdone for a good in game effect), but for a finish I use to scale x- and y- dimensions up for ~10% and along z-axis even up to 65% sometimes, since 5 modeled meters will turn out as 3 meters in height in the render.
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: c.p. on June 11, 2017, 09:10:35 AM
The new railing looks a lot better in my opinion. :thumbsup: I'd personally be tempted to stretch the first floor a bit so you could see a little more of the windows and doors and more quickly/easily tell its a 2 story building with a second floor balcony, but that's just me, and it depends on what kind of a look you want the building to have, etc
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: Simcoug on June 11, 2017, 11:52:56 AM
I agree with C.P. - it does look a bit squished, especially the first floor.  Otherwise, great work!  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: thingfishs on June 20, 2017, 10:50:58 AM
Thanks for your thoughts everyone  :thumbsup:

I've been tied up in RL, but have had a bit more of a go at it this evening. I have stretched it so as to see more of the ground floor (I think you were both right in it looking a bit squished - but now I think I may have taken it too far...?).

Also I have begun the texturing process, but there's a long way to go. I'm still not happy with most of them - especially my old "friend", the corrugated iron roof. But it's been years since I've done any proper texturing so I'll be patient with it until I've got what I'm after (some re-reading of the basics will clearly be required). I'll probably make two versions of it with another type of roof and wall texture:

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FPJwAMxh.jpg&hash=2a95cf56f5f8df5aa94807c30ba1cbe1d7e64aee)

Cheers,
Ryan
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: Krasner on June 20, 2017, 11:28:52 AM
Really nice ! Stretching is just-below-the-too-much, in other words it's good and measured (imo) :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: reddonquixote on June 21, 2017, 12:55:06 AM
Looks pretty good to me :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: thingfishs on June 21, 2017, 03:38:24 PM
Thanks Krasner and reddonquixote. :thumbsup:

After you've stared at these things for hours it can become hard to tell sometimes how proportions are looking.

(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2Fz5RvXJ1.jpg&hash=2e6b45b4e80a3c49d3da058470523e4f667ee484)


It's much closer to what I'm after (texture wise) - but now I need some other people's eyes and expertise...

Cheers  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: 911Diva on June 21, 2017, 06:55:26 PM
I'm still looking for your Winery!!??!!  Is it here anywhere?? :) :)
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: thingfishs on June 21, 2017, 11:48:01 PM
Thanks for the interest in the winery 911Diva; it was quite a labor of love going back some seven years...

It can be found here: http://community.simtropolis.com/files/file/25351-shottesbrooke-winery/ (http://community.simtropolis.com/files/file/25351-shottesbrooke-winery/)

(There may be a regular growable version on the way as well...)
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: Simcoug on June 22, 2017, 05:39:41 AM
Textures look great to me  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Thingfishs is having a B.A.T Downunder (wanna take a look)
Post by: dobdriver on October 23, 2017, 12:04:50 AM
Things old mate!


first time here for about 4 years and look who dropped in.