Hi NAM team,
I have created a small mod based on effect that allow me to place a lot that raises, then destroys itself. So no more need for the hole digger and raiser lots.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBq4dYppvdI&feature=youtu.be
Now my question. Can somebody tell me the height an on slope puzzle pieces needs. And what are the specs for the other pieces?
Thnks,
Alex
:o Very interesting! Groundbreaking!
The heights for Onslope puzzle pieces are 15 meters, usually. Rail-based network heights are 15.5 meters. Project 57 introduces the height levels 7.5m, 22.5m and 30m as well.
I am rather curious as to how the actual destruction works.
First things first: Brilliant discovery!
Second, we would like to have the following heights, both up and down (all from Shadow Assassin's hole digger & raiser lots):
- 7.5m
- 8m
- 10m
- 12m
- 14m
- 15m
- 24m
Good luck with this project ;)
Best,
Maarten
I was impressed enough with the hole digger and raiser lots which had already been created, but this would certainly make for a much simpler replacement. The little video showed raising, but you have obviously also come up with digger lots. Both sunken and embanked roads and railroads will become so much more staightforward.
This will be super useful in tight situations. Can't wait until you release it!
I love how even for such an old game, new and really useful things keem getting discovered. Keep up the good work!
Xander
Could you create 2x2, 4x4 puzzle pieces? It will be very useful!
This is amazing! &apls
Very nice.
Does it work under water?
You've really been breaking (and lowering and raising ()stsfd() ) ground lately. Good job!
&apls
This is great!
It will certainly make gameplay simpler again.
So, with the risk that this is becoming a request thread: is it possible to make lots that raise or lower to a fixed level above sea? It would be good to have a lot that raises or lowers the terrain to the perfect harbour level. Was it 4.0 m above sealevel? Wouanagaine made a special brush in his terraformer for making harbourlevels. I use it all the time when I make my harbours, because it's the only reliable way to get the correct level.
Frank, such a lot is already available: the CDK Leveler (http://community.simtropolis.com/files/file/4527-peg-cdk-leveler-v205/) by Pegasus.
Rivit made few more digger and raiser lots. That set included 5m lot and I have found it very helpfull. If you wish, that might be a good candidate for your set.
Quote from: memo on January 20, 2013, 02:23:50 AM
Frank, such a lot is already available: the CDK Leveler (http://community.simtropolis.com/files/file/4527-peg-cdk-leveler-v205/) by Pegasus.
Working with shorelines is easy and fast with those lots, so I have allways wondered why they are so often ignored by players. Perhaps they just got buried under the new stuff in STEX.
- Ilja
Quote from: Reform on January 20, 2013, 03:10:36 AM
Quote from: memo on January 20, 2013, 02:23:50 AM
Frank, such a lot is already available: the CDK Leveler (http://community.simtropolis.com/files/file/4527-peg-cdk-leveler-v205/) by Pegasus.
Working with shorelines is easy and fast with those lots, so I have allways wondered why they are so often ignored by players. Perhaps they just got buried under the new stuff in STEX.
- Ilja
I know about these Peagsus lots. I had very mixed results with them. Sometimes the seaport lots I placed on the CDK-levelled terrain disappeared under water. It migh have been that I did something wrong, but I gave up. When I need a securely leveled seaport area I fire up terraformer and use the "make harbour" tool.
By the way: this makes clear that is it quite some time ago, because as far as I know Terraformer does not even work on my Win7 x64 SP1 OS. But that is another matter.
Frank
Quote from: FrankU on January 20, 2013, 03:44:39 AM
Quote from: Reform on January 20, 2013, 03:10:36 AM
Quote from: memo on January 20, 2013, 02:23:50 AM
Frank, such a lot is already available: the CDK Leveler (http://community.simtropolis.com/files/file/4527-peg-cdk-leveler-v205/) by Pegasus.
Working with shorelines is easy and fast with those lots, so I have allways wondered why they are so often ignored by players. Perhaps they just got buried under the new stuff in STEX.
- Ilja
I know about these Peagsus lots. I had very mixed results with them. Sometimes the seaport lots I placed on the CDK-levelled terrain disappeared under water. It migh have been that I did something wrong, but I gave up. When I need a securely leveled seaport area I fire up terraformer and use the "make harbour" tool.
By the way: this makes clear that is it quite some time ago, because as far as I know Terraformer does not even work on my Win7 x64 SP1 OS. But that is another matter.
Frank
Same here with Peg's levelers. Sometimes they work great, then other times the lot goes lower then it does. They are great to use wen they work, but sometimes they don't
Quote from: FrankU on January 20, 2013, 03:44:39 AM
I know about these Peagsus lots. I had very mixed results with them. Sometimes the seaport lots I placed on the CDK-levelled terrain disappeared under water. It migh have been that I did something wrong, but I gave up. When I need a securely leveled seaport area I fire up terraformer and use the "make harbour" tool.
By the way: this makes clear that is it quite some time ago, because as far as I know Terraformer does not even work on my Win7 x64 SP1 OS. But that is another matter.
Frank
This has nothing to do with the leveler lot, but with how the game treats terrain level changes. The same thing happens when you do it manually with the terrain tools. What you need to do is exit the city and re-enter, and all should work well.
Cheers
Willy
Not to turn this in to a discussion about these lots, but I usually create a small straight edged area and just level that. Then I use the in-game leveling brush (god mode tool in terrain mode) to create the whole shore. Hills, shoreline rocks and other elevations are built after that.
We all have our own ways of creating our regions. If xannepan's work provides something that other players will consider usefull, then it is most warmly welcomed. :)
Quote from: Swordmaster on January 20, 2013, 03:57:38 AM
This has nothing to do with the leveler lot, but with how the game treats terrain level changes. The same thing happens when you do it manually with the terrain tools. What you need to do is exit the city and re-enter, and all should work well.
Cheers
Willy
Sometimes allready leveled area sinks a bit, after plopping some harbor lots to it. Usually I just re-level that area, place few road stubs as anchors and that fixes the problem for the whole area. Maybe I should try this exit and enter fix as well.
- Ilja
Great job with these. Now this is not a request, just an idea. Is there a slight possibility for this to become draggable? Because that would make it even more useful for creation of embankments for elevated heavy rail and stuff like that.
Fantastic work Alex! Thanks a lot!
Amazing discovery you have there &apls the auto-demolishing feature will definitely speed up making embankments tremendously - without needing to use the bulldozer tool every now and then.
I have an idea regards to the height increment of the lots. There are multiple heights that are available for the hole digging and raiser lots, and if one chooses to cater to all the heights requested, not only will there be a lot of work required on your behalf but also there is a probability of menu-overcrowding.
Therefore, I was wondering if it is possible to make them modular by height - i.e., by only using a selected few heights, which users can then mix and match themselves (by plopping different lots) to sum the heights up to their desired ones.
Of course, that means using prime numbers for height increments, as well as half-meter increments:
- 0.5m - for 15.5m elevated railway, when used in conjunction with 15m raiser
- 1m - not prime, but needed
- 2m
- 3m
- 5m
- 7.5m - for L1, L3 (used with 15m) networks
- 15m - for L2 and L4 (plopped twice) networks
Of course the 7.5m and 15m variants can be made from plopping a combination of the 0.5m, 2m, 3m and 5m variants, but for the ease of elevated networks we can include them.
The advantage of this is that there is no longer any need to create additional lots for different heights - if one needs to create a embankment that is 8m high for Buddybud's underpasses, for example, he can use 7.5m + 0.5m lot.
If one needs the 10m embankment to allow avenue tunnelling, simply plop the 5m piece twice ;)
This is just my two cents :)
that is one snazzy tool, thanks very much Alex :D
Quote from: teddyrised on January 20, 2013, 07:17:16 AM
The advantage of this is that there is no longer any need to create additional lots for different heights - if one needs to create a embankment that is 8m high for Buddybud's underpasses, for example, he can use 7.5m + 0.5m lot.
If one needs the 10m embankment to allow avenue tunnelling, simply plop the 5m piece twice
That's actually a disadvantage in itself, by the looks of it; It would be too much work to create an embankment this way and could be counterproductive.
This has been discussed amongst several NAM Team Members, and mentioned by Markus and Maarten up top, and the height levels needed are the following: 7.5, 8, 10, 12, 14, 15, 15.5, 22.5, 24, and 30. This is to match up with three things: The height levels of the Multi-Height System, the height levels needed to match the tunnel caps of the default networks, and the height level of the Elevated Rail and Viaduct Rail networks.
Creating the additional 10 lots (and I mean both up and down) is a one-time sacrifice for the modder, whereas just having 10 wonky height levels would make building an embankment two or three or even six times as long, and every user has to do that (and we're talking thousands of users).
MY two cents on the matter.
Quote from: GDO29Anagram on January 20, 2013, 08:00:42 AM
That's actually a disadvantage in itself, by the looks of it; It would be too much work to create an embankment this way and could be counterproductive.
I agree. I don't see any reason to use several diggin/raising lots for embankments. Doing large projects is already time (and wrist) consuming as it is.
However, these lots are used for general terraforming as well, and that is why I requested the 5m diggin/raising height. It is a good working height for both inner city networks and rural hills, when you are planning your tiles like topographic maps, as I do. Creating a 15m bridges and embankments are easy, when you only have to count 3 levels down or up to get the correct height.
Of course I can work with whatever heights are created, and Rivit's lots still exist to support my playing style. :)
Quote from: GDO29Anagram on January 20, 2013, 08:00:42 AM
Quote from: teddyrised on January 20, 2013, 07:17:16 AM
That's actually a disadvantage in itself, by the looks of it; It would be too much work to create an embankment this way and could be counterproductive.
This has been discussed amongst several NAM Team Members, and mentioned by Markus and Maarten up top, and the height levels needed are the following: 7.5, 8, 10, 12, 14, 15, 15.5, 22.5, 24, and 30. This is to match up with three things: The height levels of the Multi-Height System, the height levels needed to match the tunnel caps of the default networks, and the height level of the Elevated Rail and Viaduct Rail networks.
Creating the additional 10 lots (and I mean both up and down) is a one-time sacrifice for the modder, whereas just having 10 wonky height levels would make building an embankment two or three or even six times as long, and every user has to do that (and we're talking thousands of users).
MY two cents on the matter.
I kindly disagree with the choice of words for describing height levels - "wonky" isn't exactly what I have in mind.
I think the way I see it is that for creating long, wide or huge embankments, I typically use singly-plopped road tiles, so the raiser lots are just a one-time use in most cases (unless I accidentally level the embankment).
But your point does make sense, too. It really depends on people's way of creating embankments.
First of all, very nice discovery/work Alex! I agree with everyone that this will be an extremely useful mod for many aspects of the game!
Quote from: spot on January 19, 2013, 06:36:59 PM
Very nice.
Does it work under water?
I thought about this, and underwater compatibility would be a huge plus. It will help in the construction of ports and riverbeds.
Amazing discovery, this will definitely speed up construction time for interchanges. Your work continue to amaze! ;D
Does anybody know Shadow Assasin is still around? I'd like permission to re-use the lots/icons etc NHP created and upgrade the functionallity.
Quote from: xannepan on January 22, 2013, 09:31:36 AM
Does anybody know Shadow Assasin is still around? I'd like permission to re-use the lots/icons etc NHP created and upgrade the functionallity.
Of course he is, he checkes the forum often (surely every day) :)
This looks like a much-appreciated upgrade in functionality!
I just got SA's permission to use his icons and lots as basis for the new hole digger and raiser lots.
Since the BSC lex is down already for a few days I'm posting a link here were you can download for testing.
What I am particularly interested in is if the heights (lowering and raising) are appropriately calibrated and that there is no difference between PCs. Can you please post your feedback? (Installation instructions are included, but in fact very simple: just replace the Original hole digger lots with these lots... don't forget to make a backup of the originals).
By the way: all requested heights are included from 7.5 to 30m
https://www.wetransfer.com/downloads/7f6b77405ed0566e165bdbe5f925ce6120130123080454/9f7a717ffe40fc1f0e98c9f9d6194c1e20130123080454/c0bdb9
As I have mentioned in a PM to Shadow Assasin already: I'd be happy to 'transfer' these to the NAM team for release, if you think that would be beneficial in some way. If not then I'm equally happy to release these myself after I get some feedback :)
-Alex
First things first: If you are not careful, you will end up destroying everything within a 3x3 tile area from the lot. Additionally, if you aim correctly, you will be able to use these lots in the water.
The former should be emphasised, due to its potentially destructive nature.
Additionally, you cannot place them one at a time in a line; If you have to place a line of these, you have to space them out one tile apart. If not, you'll end up double-lifting the ground.
Since this will all be integrated into the NAM (yes, we also had to cut back on our zero-lot policy, simply because HDR/HDGL lots are too essential to have separate from the NAM), it'll be well-documented.
That is all I have to say, based on just 5 minutes of testing. They're only a bit more volatile than traditional HD/GL lots
EDIT: Another five minutes of testing shows that both the 7.5 and 15.5 lifters are pretty much dead-on, and I can imagine that it's the same with the traditional 15m lifter.
Good points. I can change the behavior fairly easy to enable placing them 1 tile apart. (In that case the first lot you plop won't raise a square area, but only a single edge of the square. Plopping the second lot directly next to it will then complete a squared raised area. That will enable placing them one at a time in a line without spacing them one tile apart. (will take me 2 minutes of work)
Careful also with rotating the lots, in fact don't rotate before plopping. If you do there is a tile difference between the position where you plop and where the terrain is raised/lowered. I am clueless as to what is causing that....
About the destructive nature. I think once you dragged roads though the current hole digger/raiser lots, you get the same level of destructiveness. Destructiveness is simply caused by lowering or raising the terrain (I have disabled the destructiveness in the effect dir). But fair enough: the destructiveness of my version is immediate :) so indeed appears more volatile :)
Something different now: I remember reading somewhere that puzzle pieces also need an effectdir part. I have no clue what that effect dir actually does for a puzzle piece. But it got me thinking: since my raiser/digger lots are also effect based, wouldn't it be possible to place them simply as a "puzzle piece" where the height level is selected with the TAB key? (Obviously it will not be a network puzzle piece, only the effect would be placed intead of a network piece)...
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FuInX0mF.jpg&hash=b890fe2a72a2ea2b86eaf4e7b5f8728331951522)
Further tests show that this is how far the "destruction range" is, for my end at least. (Doesn't help if I'm the first one testing, or the only one.)
Quote from: xannepan on January 23, 2013, 01:29:18 AM
Something different now: I remember reading somewhere that puzzle pieces also need an effectdir part. I have no clue what that effect dir actually does for a puzzle piece. But it got me thinking: since my raiser/digger lots are also effect based, wouldn't it be possible to place them simply as a "puzzle piece" where the height level is selected with the TAB key? (Obviously it will not be a network puzzle piece, only the effect would be placed intead of a network piece)...
The Effect Directories used for puzzle pieces are merely for displaying the preview models before placing a puzzle piece (blue normally and red if the puzzle piece cannot be placed). However, since the effect is simply attached via a LotConfigProperty, it can be attached to any NetworkTile via T21 Exemplars. I've attached such a file (-7.5m) for the GLR straight puzzle piece for testing purposes.
Using puzzle pieces for this has another two advantages: It is faster as no Lot has to be demolished and no demolishing cloud effects are displayed.
Quote from: xannepan on January 23, 2013, 01:29:18 AM
(I have disabled the destructiveness in the effect dir).
Do you mean by this that the destructive nature can be turned off? I think this could be helpful.
Quote from: GDO29Anagram on January 23, 2013, 02:08:22 AM
(https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FuInX0mF.jpg&hash=b890fe2a72a2ea2b86eaf4e7b5f8728331951522)
Further tests show that this is how far the "destruction range" is, for my end at least. (Doesn't help if I'm the first one testing, or the only one.)
??? ??? That is strange...... I was fairly sure I turned off the destructive nature of the effect.... let me check what's going on....
Turns out the problem is in the brush the effect dir refers to. Easy to solve, just need to recalibrate all height levels now.
Destruction will now be limited to a 3x3 tile area with the raised/lowered tile in the center. Desctruvtion is a consequence of raising the terrain, not of the lot itself. Same happens is you use any of the terrain brushes (god or mayor mode).
For now hold on with testing until I have got this solved...
Memo: I had a quick look at your puzzle piece approach. It works great. I am no expert in puzzle pieces at all... but I guess it would be possible to create a set of "dummy/blank" puzzle pieces which can be grouped together for cycling through with the TAB key with T21 references to the different effect exemplars. I can make 3d preview models for height indicators.
Could it be we could make this dragabble??
Thanks guys!
https://www.wetransfer.com/downloads/be8e2c1cbc318a43cece52dafd07978c20130123145541/12e9c5
Here is the link to the updated raiser and digger lots. 'Destructiveness' should now be limited to the 3x3 tile area that is raised or lowered.
Shadow Assasin told me he planned to include and updated version in the next NAM release. As mentioned before I'd be happy to transfer this to the NAM team.
Who makes the decision :) ?
I am available for suggestions on how to improve in the mean time.
Cheers,
-Alex
I can confirm the newer version works for me with destruction limited to the 3x3 tile area. Nice work :thumbsup:
Quote from: xannepan on January 23, 2013, 04:28:46 AM
[...]but I guess it would be possible to create a set of "dummy/blank" puzzle pieces which can be grouped together for cycling through with the TAB key with T21 references to the different effect exemplars.
Yes, that is definitely possible. And not much work at all.
Quote from: xannepan on January 23, 2013, 04:28:46 AM
Could it be we could make this dragabble??
I tried this too, but – apart from an amusing domino effect destroying all roads of a city – I could not achieve anything satisfactory in this respect.
Do you think, instead of referencing the terrain brushes, you could use the same effect that was used for the conventional digger/raiser TE-Lots?
Quote from: xannepan on January 23, 2013, 07:27:13 AM
Who makes the decision :) ?
You do. ;) Though, if you are aiming for the puzzle piece approach, it is inevitable to include them in the NAM, which would be most welcome.
All right...looks like we'll be going for the puzzle piece approach and inclusion in the NAM then!
I don't know how to make puzzle pieces myself though.. so I have to rely on you or other NAM team members to make it so...
As for the coventional differ/raiser lots, I have no clue how they work.. I will look into it a bit and if I do find out it may be possible I'll get back to it.
The domino must have been amusing indeed ;D
One thing I forgot to mention; the current lots also work under water... I have't come up with a purpose yet, but maybe someone will find that useful. Not sure if that can be done with puzzle pieces....
Do not worry about the puzzle pieces. I could do that without much effort, just as any other NAM modder who is around.
Regarding the conventional Lots, the relevant data is in the LotConfigProperty whose first entry is 0x7. This property is responsible for transit-enabling and one of its entries determines the height change.
Puzzle pieces do work underwater as well, by the way.
Quote from: xannepan on January 23, 2013, 10:34:10 AM
The domino must have been amusing indeed ;D
It was. It looks like I just had not found the right configuration. Now, I figured out how to make it much more predictable. You can try it yourself by changing the "NetworkPieceID" of the previously attached T21-Exemplar to 0x00000300 and by dragging normal roads then. Alternatively, you can change it to 0x51000100 and build a TLA-3 from the NWM, as such a feature would necessarily have to be an override network. However, it works smoothly in two of the cardinal directions only, which is because of the rotational issue, I think.
Quote from: xannepan on January 23, 2013, 10:34:10 AM
Not sure if that can be done with puzzle pieces....
AFAIK you can place any puzzle piece in the water, so if these are distributed as puzzle pieces, one can use the Water Pollution dataview for easy leveling of sub-sealevel terrain.
Is it possible for there to be a "level to height" piece? That is, you place one piece and placing the same piece next to it levels the terrain to the first piece's height?
Quote from: xannepan on January 23, 2013, 12:12:29 AM
I just got SA's permission to use his icons and lots as basis for the new hole digger and raiser lots.
Since the BSC lex is down already for a few days I'm posting a link here were you can download for testing.
What I am particularly interested in is if the heights (lowering and raising) are appropriately calibrated and that there is no difference between PCs. Can you please post your feedback? (Installation instructions are included, but in fact very simple: just replace the Original hole digger lots with these lots... don't forget to make a backup of the originals).
By the way: all requested heights are included from 7.5 to 30m
https://www.wetransfer.com/downloads/7f6b77405ed0566e165bdbe5f925ce6120130123080454/9f7a717ffe40fc1f0e98c9f9d6194c1e20130123080454/c0bdb9
As I have mentioned in a PM to Shadow Assasin already: I'd be happy to 'transfer' these to the NAM team for release, if you think that would be beneficial in some way. If not then I'm equally happy to release these myself after I get some feedback :)
-Alex
The website says it isnt avalible for download anymore
That's because it's now included in the main NAM distribution.
(Apologies for belated reply)