What causes Prop Pox (and how to avoid it)

[kodlovag]

I just find this thread (at the top of the page... I need new glasses) So I copy my post here too from 'The Prop Pox' topic.

I have several questions

I'm working on a realistic nightlight mod based on Light Replacement Mod v3 by mrtnrln. See thread http://sc4devotion.com/forums/index.php?topic=12101.0

During thinking on how to insert light poles and cones into stoplights I found it probably will cause prop pox. It would require changing the stoplight prop from ResKeyType1 to 4, which means different prop length. If I understand well, that can cause prop pox. Can somebody confirm it?

Furthermore. I read through this thread and what I understand about prop pox, any change in the prop length can cause prop pox. This means, that the LRM v3 already can cause prop pox, because it directly replaces maxis streetlights with new models, and the new props many time have different amount of data in ResKeyType4 line.
Am I right, that any replacement type mod is a potential source of prop pox? What should I do, if I know, that my mod will inherit prop pox from LRM v3?

[RippleJet]

During thinking on how to insert light poles and cones into stoplights I found it probably will cause prop pox. It would require changing the stoplight prop from ResKeyType1 to 4, which means different prop length. If I understand well, that can cause prop pox. Can somebody confirm it?

Changing it from RKT1 to RKT4 is not a risk. It becomes a risk only if you're adding or changing the type of timing for the props.

Furthermore. I read through this thread and what I understand about prop pox, any change in the prop length can cause prop pox. This means, that the LRM v3 already can cause prop pox, because it directly replaces maxis streetlights with new models, and the new props many time have different amount of data in ResKeyType4 line.
Am I right, that any replacement type mod is a potential source of prop pox? What should I do, if I know, that my mod will inherit prop pox from LRM v3?

The difference of length is not the length in the prop exemplar (that's a mistake I think bap also made in the beginning, and is probably still mentioned in his posts), it's the difference in length once it's saved in the savedgame (*.SC4) file. Only differently timed props lead to these differences in record lengths.

[bap]

The difference of length is not the length in the prop exemplar (that's a mistake I think bap also made in the beginning, and is probably still mentioned in his posts), it's the difference in length once it's saved in the savedgame (*.SC4) file. Only differently timed props lead to these differences in record lengths.

Thanks RippleJet for the quick reply. I must take some time of my vacations to reorganize this thread (maybe combining the 4 initial messages into one explanatory message that would show up at the top of every page). That would be a good time to remove some old ideas that we later learned are not correct (i.e., about the size of the prop exemplar being relevant for prop pox).

On the other hand, my last experience with poxed cities suggest that the problem may not be with the size of the prop registry at the savegame itself. I closely followed the development of an infected city until it was finally poxed. I though that one would have been cleared because (i) I recovered a backup copy of the city in which all records of the 4 offending props were of normal size and (ii) it was being developed after I corrected the BDK file that leads to prop pox. In that backed up copy of the city, all beach umbrella had 0x6C size records and all recliner, beach chair and patio chair had 0x58 size records. However, there were 41 records of recliner+beach+patio props left in the savegame file with the conditional appearance flag set to 'HourTimedProp', indicating these were remaining modded versions of the props. As their lots were progressively replaced in game, these modded props all became 'disabled props', dumped at the end of the prop subfile. When the prop subfile reached the 16Mby size, the city became prop poxed. At that point 38 of the 41 modded props were already disabled (with a normal 0x58 record size). That was enough to cause the problem. (I realized I had to go even farther in the past to find a really non-infected version of that city; I fortunately had a previous backup which is indeed free from the props which cause the pox  ; the city is doing fine now  )

Thus, just underscoring what RippleJet said above, if one wishes to avoid creating a cause of prop pox, please do not change the type of timing of an existing prop. Maxis code doesn't like that. And every time a lot containing one of these modded props is deleted (or a piece of a road is destroyed, if the modded prop is a T21 prop), the offending prop will become disabled and will be dumped at the end of the prop subfile, leading to prop pox when that file reaches the 16 Mb size.

[kodlovag]

Thanks for the info.

[TownMaster2005]

I have been hit by what I assume is the "pox" and following a very long read of this thread. My region is showing all the symptoms and it just breaks my heart knowing that I have lost a region that I have been working on for the last 6 months try to create a city metropolis; but then that is just the way it is.

Now before I go off and start something new could I please ask the knowledgeable folk here a few questions;
- Is it only limited to large cities - the poxed one was a 3x4 large city region
- Must the lots with the dodgy props be plopped or is it enough that they are just in the plugins folder - reason I ask is that the first city to be hit with the pox was land-locked and none of those props would have been in use and much the same with the second and third.

Thanks in advance.

[RippleJet]

- Is it only limited to large cities

Yes, you could say so.
The most common size of a prop record is 88 bytes, and the next common one (for timed props) is 108 bytes.
To get the prop subfile up to the size of 16 MB, would require some 190,000 props in a single city.

In a large city, 256×256 tiles = 65,536 tiles, 190,000 props would mean almost 3 props per tile. Fully achievable...
It's also worth noting that low-density growable lots usually have a lot more props per tile than large skyscrapers.

In a medium city, 128×128 tiles = 16,384 tiles, 190,000 props would mean almost 12 props per tile.
That's on an average... and very few lots would have that many props.
Thus, the chances of getting prop pox in a medium sized city are close to none.

In a small city, 64×64 = 4,096 tiles, you'd need 46 props per tile in order to being at risk of getting the pox.
That risk is negligible!

- Must the lots with the dodgy props be plopped or is it enough that they are just in the plugins folder

It's enough to have them in your plugins folder, since those props are modified Maxis props, and Maxis did use those props on a lot of their own lots.
There are lots of ingame low-stage residential lots with pools, and thus, recliner chairs and beach umbrellas in their backyards.

[TownMaster2005]

RippleJet, thank you very much for your prompt reply and it explains why inland cities are nailed as well.

I suppose this mean that we all need to seriously think about how we design our regions and cities.

Well, as they say in the trenches; "onwards and forward". I am going to make the changes suggested and with using only the large city for the big lots I will see how it all plays out.

Keep up the brilliant work you guys.

All the best for 2011.

[Moonraker0]

You can completely get rid of the pox any time you want... temporarily.  Here's how:

1. Open your saved city in Ilive's Reader.
2. Sort the left pane based on file size, with the highest at the top.
3. Near the top, there will be a subfile of type 2977AA47.  This is the prop subfile.  Delete it.
4. Also delete the subfiles of type 6A0F82B2 and 6990C1AA, which are also near the top.  These subfiles are regenerated as needed.  If you don't delete them, this process will still work, but your city size will increase greatly each time you repeat this process.
5. Save the city file.
6. Start up the game, but don't open the city file.
7. Open the Graphic Options, and make sure the City Detail is set to Low.
8. Open your city and save it immediately.
9. Exit to the region without saving.
10. Open the Graphic Options, and change your city detail to High.
11. Open your city.  All your props should be restored.
12. Save your city.  Your props will all be there... for a while.

I just tried this, and it worked, but for one thing I immediately noticed:  all the automata from my city (except the police helicopter) were gone.  I checked the route query for a few avenues that were previously heavily used, and found that they had absolutely no traffic on them.  I then checked the traffic volume graph and found that all traffic in my city was at zero  (although residences that did not previously have a "no job" zot over them remained in working order, no abandonment due to commute time for them).  I waited a few game-months, and found that traffic was returning to my city, but only in the form of cars and pedestrians; no mass transit usage.  Then I saved and exited to region and then reloaded in hopes that traffic would be back to normal, but found that the prop pox was back, not in the northwestern corner of my city, but rather in the southeastern area.

So here is my question:  will z's method that I quoted allow one to perform the method, correct/remove problem props in iLive Reader, and then run the city without the prop pox if the cause in one's plugins has indeed been fixed?  Or does the city file remain "infected" after performing z's method, as in it will still eventually get poxed?

I just recently got the prop pox in this city (I deleted it the last time it got the pox); I thought (or rather hoped) that after I re-started the prop pox wouldn't affect it anymore, since I edited the BDK resource file like Bap said to do in the original post and removed the bad prop exemplars.  Apparently, though, I have another cause of the prop pox in my plugins folder, so after getting it in this city earlier today I removed a bunch of prop exemplars from PEG_TrailPark-Engine_305a.dat which were modified versions of the maxis originals with the same ID, having more properties added to the exemplars and thus increasing the file size.

[SC4BOY]

Or does the city file remain "infected" after performing z's method, as in it will still eventually get poxed?

This is correct. Unless someone finds a way to edit the save files and preserve their integrity, you cannot "undo" the infection of prop pox. The quoted method simply removes the effect temporarily, but it will return when the compress/expansion condition recurs. This is why there is considerable emphasis on finding all causes where possible. Unfortunately the event is fairly uncommon and when it does occur it is rare that there is enough data to make further conclusive investigations. The only way you can "recover" is if you have a save file which is from before the first instance of the infected save/delete event.

[bap]

I just recently got the prop pox in this city (I deleted it the last time it got the pox); I thought (or rather hoped) that after I re-started the prop pox wouldn't affect it anymore, since I edited the BDK resource file like Bap said to do in the original post and removed the bad prop exemplars.  Apparently, though, I have another cause of the prop pox in my plugins folder, so after getting it in this city earlier today I removed a bunch of prop exemplars from PEG_TrailPark-Engine_305a.dat which were modified versions of the maxis originals with the same ID, having more properties added to the exemplars and thus increasing the file size.

Moonraker0, if you wish to help, you might consider uploading your most developed unpoxed city of that region in a file server, and I may have a look at it. If this city is also infected by the pox, the culprits should be laying at the end of the savegame prop subfile as disabled props and we should be able to identify them using Wouanagaine's SC4Savegame program.

[Moonraker0]

@bap:  I think that I have solved the prop pox in this city.  There were corrupted IIDs of props at the end of the file when I looked at the poxed version of the city.  The only backup I have of that city was from before it was infected at all, which led me to believe that the source of the prop pox was very recently added to my plugins, although as there were no disabled props in the uninfected file I can't be sure.  My belief is that the pox virus may have appeared when (during that time period between the uninfected backup and the poxed city file) I upgraded the Hong Kong Peninsula Hotel to the new version that was released then; as the description didn't say anything about bulldozing, I kept the lots of that building in that city when I upgraded it, but the buildings (which are timed-over-year props) on the lots disappeared and I couldn't query the lots.  I think that it's possible that this incorrect method of upgrading may have caused the prop pox.  I routinely check that city file in SC4Save and there are still 0 disabled props in it as of now.

Unfortunately, I just got the prop pox in another city in a different region.  I knew I would eventually, as the bad BDK props were in the city file as disabled props when I checked, and I had no earlier backup to go back to.  I have made backups of that city about every other day for the past week or so, and when it got the prop pox I checked the city file in the backup I made yesterday.  It had 62 disabled props, all of which are the four bad PEG-BDK props.  I checked the first backup I had of the city and saw that it had only 6 disabled props, which were also only the BDK ones.  The thing is, after I made that first backup, the BDK props were deleted from the BDK Resource file, following the instructions in one of your early posts in this thread.  I thought that this would cause the 6 disabled props to stay in the save file, but no further ones should appear.  Is it normal for the number of disabled props to increase after the cause has been fixed?

In any case, I have created a folder at MediaFire containing the save files in question here.  The Ternes files are the only ones that will probably be of any use to you.  The file City - Ternes.sc4 is the infected one with the 62 disabled BDK props.  The file City - Ternes.sc4.poxed is the version where the prop pox appeared.  The file Ternes.sc4.bak is the earliest backup I have, the one with the 6 disabled props.

[SC4BOY]

Moonraker0, if you read carefully through this thread, you will find that the appearance of "prop pox" and whether or not you have "the infection" are two totally different events. The thread will explain what appears to cause it, why it seems to cause it, and more importantly when it shows up.. your description above would suggest to me that you have not read through these issues. It is likely that you have had the infection for a very long time even though it only shows up very "late in the game" in terms of what shows up in your city(ies).. in many cities it will never show up, even though they "have the pox" .. the save file size has to get quite large.,.. many if not most players rarely play a city to that size, so they  never even notice it.

[Flash]

Hello All,

Thank you for all of your efforts. I recently reinstalled SC4 and started to rebuild my plug-ins. Luckily the dependencies I needed from SG and other hrer had no links to the file in question.

I thought I had backed up my old plug-in zips somewhere. I had downloaded every full reference CAM (the original reference downloads not just models) and anything I found interestting. If I can find the dvd, is there anyway to know if I have found an old enough file that you might want to search?

EDIT:
Question, In the search for other causes, is it believed to be limited to an old dependency pack of some sort or a BAT or Lot? If an old pack, is it possible the offending pack has already been updated? I would think STEX would be a primary place to start. I would hate to start a new region and find an old lot still available on the STEX or other places that I had backed up or find an old one now that I liked without knowing if it might possibly screw it up later.

Thanks again,
Flash

[Moonraker0]

@SC4BOY:  Yes, I know that they are different events, as described in bap's post on the previous page.  I believe I described the stages of prop pox accurately in my previous post according to bap's definitions.  I spent this evening reading the remainder of the thread, though (I had about half of it down before today).  I thought I wouldn't get the prop pox anymore, but once again I have been proven wrong about that, as I have just today experienced it in another city in a recently started region.  I seem to have a knack for making cities with enough props to get the pox.  This city is almost all high density, but only about half of the tile is covered with development.  When I first noticed the prop pox, I immediately exited without saving and looked at the prop subfile in SC4Save.  The strange thing was that even in this poxed city, SC4Save reported 0 disabled props and "prop pox free city".  I loaded the city again in the game and, after making a backup of the first poxed version, I saved the city again.  This new version has 35845 disabled props, although it is still reported as "prop pox free".  I looked at a few of the IIDs for the disabled props at the end of the list, and they just appear to be random Maxis props (upon examination in Reader of those IIDs), and not anything that any single mod I know of would be modifying.  Bap did say a few posts back that it was bad if the IIDs in the poxed save file were corrupt, so is this a good thing that they're apparently intact here?  Or are these seemingly random props just misleading IIDs because they are actually corrupt?  If this save file is useful to bap or anyone else, I did upload it to my Mediafire folder with the poxed city files.  The file "City - Kowloon.sc4" is the newest one, when I saved it again after getting the prop pox and SC4Save first reported all those disabled props.  The file "City - Kowloon (Poxed).sc4" is from right when I started seeing the prop pox, even though no disabled props or prop pox were reported in SC4Save.

[Moonraker0]

I just checked out the links bap made to Riquelandia (to try testing for prop pox myself), but they all seem to have been broken by Fileden changing its link structure; they all redirect me to http://www.fileden.com, with seemingly no way to get to the file I am looking for.

[bap]

I just checked out the links bap made to Riquelandia (to try testing for prop pox myself), but they all seem to
have been broken by Fileden changing its link structure; they all redirect me to http://www.fileden.com, with
seemingly no way to get to the file I am looking for.

I just tried to login at fileden withou success. I get this message at their homepage, though:

"We are currently experiencing a technical problem with a portion of our storage cloud, some files cannot be
accessed. We expect this issue to be resolved in the next few hours, your files are safe. Apologies for any
inconvenience caused!'

So, in principle, it is a temporary problem with no loss of data  . If they don't solve it in the next
couple of days you may send me a PM and I will send you the proper files by email (12 Mby after
compression with rar).

Unfortunately, I just got the prop pox in another city in a different region.  I knew I would eventually, as the
bad BDK props were in the city file as disabled props when I checked, and I had no earlier backup to go
back to.  I have made backups of that city about every other day for the past week or so, and when it got the
prop pox I checked the city file in the backup I made yesterday.  It had 62 disabled props, all of which are the
four bad PEG-BDK props.  I checked the first backup I had of the city and saw that it had only 6 disabled
props, which were also only the BDK ones.  The thing is, after I made that first backup, the BDK props were
deleted from the BDK Resource file, following the instructions in one of your early posts in this thread.  I
thought that this would cause the 6 disabled props to stay in the save file, but no further ones should appear.
Is it normal for the number of disabled props to increase after the cause has been fixed?

This procedure will only prevent you from getting Prox Pox in new cities started after correcting the
BDK resource file. Since the city you mention was a developed one, it might well have already been infected
(although the appearance of the Pox might occur much later on). Every Maxis low density residential lot with
a beach chair, umbrella, recliner or patio chair in their backyard that grew in your city while the problematic
props were in your plugins file infected it with the Pox 'virus' -- hundreds of them can grow in a few simyears
of enthusiastic mayor zoning  . Once they are there, it is usually a matter of time for the lots they are part
of to be destroyed/upgraded for them to become disabled -- even if the problematic props are no longer in
your plugins folder ...

[ At this point, a palliative measurement could be to identify all lots containing the suspicious props and mark
them as historical, so none would be further destroyed/replaced. I attached a small virus-detect dat file at the
end of this message that helps with this approach. It simply turns all occurrences of the 4 suspicious props
into brown boxes, so the mayor can easily recognize them in game. After you mark all infected lots as
'historical', the virus-detect file can be removed from the plugins folder (and sims will stop complaining 'what
the hell this mayor did to my backyard beach chair?'). But even this may be useless if some of these props
already became disabled.  . Alternatively, this file helps you gauge the size of your problem. If a few
brown boxes appear in the city it may be that none of the props became yet disabled and you may get around
by 'historicalyzing' all few infected lots. On the other hand, if you see a forest of brown boxes  ... better
go off for a bier. ]

I will have a look at the Kowloon savegame files and will report back soon.

EDIT: I login at Fileden and updated the new url addresses for the Riquilandia files. However, the links still do not work. Will wait a couple of days to see if the site goes back to normal.

[dahemac]

I solved, (fingers crossed) my prop pox problem long ago by removing PEG-OWW2_BDK. I understand that there are other known culprits. Is there a list somewhere? Should this list be included in the "How to Avoid the Problem" section at the beginning of this thread?

[bap]

I solved, (fingers crossed) my prop pox problem long ago by removing PEG-OWW2_BDK. I understand that there are other known culprits. Is there a list somewhere? Should this list be included in the "How to Avoid the Problem" section at the beginning of this thread?

dahemac, unfortunately there is no such list yet. The only confirmed source of Prop Pox still is the BDK-resource file. The conclusion that there must be at least one other source comes from the fact that the first players infected by Prop Pox report the problem in cities build before the release of the above culprit package. However, we were not yet successful in finding these other specific props, mostly because the first infected players were not aware of the problem until their cities became irremediably corrupted, at a stage where it is no longer possible to recover the IDs of the offending, culprit prop(s).

On the other hand, the fact that all recent cases of Prop Pox can be associated to the BDK-resource file suggests that the older cause(s) of the problem may no longer be in use by players, perhaps because the associated files may have either been superseeded, retired or upgraded. (I hope this also answers the questions raised earlier by Flash).

[catty]

My only city to get infected with the pox (at the time I didn't realize that's what I had) was after I had downloaded Pegasus's Beach replacement lot, this was years ago and I no longer have the zip file, but from memory it was a replacement to the Maxis beach and had a lot of timed props (which is why I downloaded it as I was doing an Island at the time and it looked a lot nicer than the Maxis beach).

I would have downloaded it from the STEX and I have just gone thru all of Pegasus's stuff on the STEX and its gone, there is just his BDK files now.

[Kcrimsonsim]

My only city to get infected with the pox (at the time I didn't realize that's what I had) was after I had downloaded Pegasus's Beach replacement lot, this was years ago and I no longer have the zip file, but from memory it was a replacement to the Maxis beach and had a lot of timed props (which is why I downloaded it as I was doing an Island at the time and it looked a lot nicer than the Maxis beach).

I would have downloaded it from the STEX and I have just gone thru all of Pegasus's stuff on the STEX and its gone, there is just his BDK files now.

Peg now has the entire catalog at Simpeg productions. You will have to register for the PLEX though. (and BTW I love Terry Pratchett, great sig!)