VeTram's L.E Project with your Help!

[VeTram]

Hi to all!

-Before i write anything else's , i want to clear something...this new thread is NOT a L.E Showcase Project  , but just an attempt to become better building my region/city through that great tool that is L.E..    
That's why i asked from BarbyW , to stay here at this forum , and not move into L.E Showcase Projects...There is also another thread of mine here in this page named "help with L.E" , but i decided to open this new thread , in order to concentrate into my project and start from the beginning to put things and thoughts all tidy..
Since i began to look at L.E , i havent since now decided if i can go on , or give it up...   I can easily say that this really depends on your help , so please stay with me , and help me .. Perhaps , some other friends that try hard to use L.E also like me , will get some ideas and support to their projects also..

-So , that's enough for prologue...On account i would like to sorry me for my poor english sometimes ...hope you can understand me..
In the continuation , i would like to copy and paste some words of mine that exists in the other thread of mine i mentioned before...it was at the period , that i had moved to L.E Showcase Projects...
I think i must mention some words about the history and the idea of that project.. I will try to be as brief as i can...

-This project is inspired from a real harbour in Greece , it's name is Piraeus and its one of the biggest ports in Europe and the biggest in Greece. 
I wanted to create a big , realistic port , following the steps of great post "Building a port" by Emilin , which is a MUST read for everyone that wants to deal with ports in game.. of course my intention in NOT to deal just with seaports , it just happened to face them in the beginning of my project ...dont ask me why ...i really dont know ...perhaps because my country is surrounded from the sea everywhere..

-So , i discovered that great post by Emilin   , and at the same time i discovered Google Earth in net . A new region was opened into my eyes , as i am dreaming to create a big seaport that has it all parts of a big seaport , like Emilin describes.. which means a Container Seaport , a Bulk Seaport , a passenger Seaport  etc..

-I dont know yet , how many cities/parts of the whole seaport this region is going to finally have , but i since now i am sure about at least three (3)..i am now working on one of them that contains the Container and Bulk Seaport. I am working on it about the last 2 months , and during that period i realised that if i really wanted to create a realistic seaport , i ought to use L.E...and the questions began..   .i opened a thread in L.E help , and i spend most of the time dealing with L.E , which slowed a lot the progress of the project...you will see where i have reached since now , in the images that i will post next time ( there are already some in my other thread) ......i am open to ideas , criticism , and of course help!...this is the history in a few words...

..and finally i want to add something more in the history above , which happened lately .... I opened accidently great MD "Antigone" by Badsim , and i was really fascinated with his work...there are so flattering remarks there , oh! what can i say more , than he's so great! ... Congratulations and from me , he is a real artist!... Of course his work is in a very high level , for a lotterer beginner , but there are so many interesting things , in his MD , that cannot resist to take a carefull look...but as more as i read , the most new questions arrived into my mind.... ...how he did that ?  ... how he managed so...and so on... ...I just wanted to add this , because i think that perhaps many times by his work ,it will be a guide and great inspiration for all of us newbies..

-Oh! i must not forget to mention that , i will try to express whatever i want to ask or say mostly with images...i believe it is better , not only because as known an image is equal to 1000 words , but also because of my poor english sometimes... ... and finally i must say that i am NOT so young anymore..    ( 47 y.o )  and sometimes i may need some rest... ...

thanks for your interesting ,and hopefully support ... next time i will return with images..

[FrankU]

I am very interested to see your work on seaports here!

After having read Emilin's great tutorial I am also addicted to the building of seaports, although nothing is really finished yet. Only parts of ports.....
Maybe because my country contains one of the larges ports in the world and is surroundend by sea on several sides.

I'd like to see what you have made. Maybe someday I will take the time to photograph and show some ports by myself.

[jmdude1]

looking forward to see what youre planning antoni.  keep up the good work.

[VeTram]

..Welcome friend FrankU and friend jmdude1

-So , here we are.. in the early beginning of project , and since we are in the beginning , let's start with something very nice....what's this?  ..questions+questions=questions!
....a general question about the game itself.. Is there any constraint , in the number of "large" cities in a region , for the game to run smoothly?..as i estimate it may be contain at least three (3) large cities in region...anyone knows?
...and also another more Lotterer question ...Is there any constraint in the sum of custom lots that may exist in a city and the whole region?..and finally what about the props? ..i think there is a limit about 256 props in a custom lot...if i am wrong , correct me pls.. 

-O.K , time to move into project , and take a general look...pls correct me whenever i am wrong with my poor english....
..below, is a general look from a piece of the whole seaport , as seen with Google Earth.. i repeat just a piece .. for example , the Passenger area of seaport can't hold in one picture..



next ,  about the area of one of hopefully Sim City , i have named that area " IkoNio"   and include the Container and Bulk area of the whole Seaport..(at least in my mind..)  IkoNio , is the first city , where i intend to work..



...a closer look that focus in the area that i have choosen to start the project... ...i have decided this area to be the Bulk Seaport..



same , from a different angle..



and a closer look to the point of project's departure .. .. this area with the pier , and some boats around that looks old and somehow destroyed , (sam , this is the pier i was writting you about )  wanted to render as better as i could , and lately i decided to add and a lighthouse in the end of the pier...The general idea into my mind is NOT to render exactly what i see , but to render whatever i like ( whenever it's possible from me) ..i hope with your help to create something nice in the end...



that's enough for now , i will try to update soon , always count a lot for your help and support ..dont forget that..

[jmdude1]

hi antoni,
looks like you will have a lot of work ahead of you. are you going to keep the diagonal piers or will you make them straight?  i had to make most of mine straight since there isnt enough diagonal content.
as for the constraint questions, i think most of it depends on the performance of your computer. my region is 56 (8x8) large cities and with the help of the .dat packer, all runs smoothly.  i dont think there are any limits for custom content either, as long as your computer can keep up with it.  and i believe you are right about the amount of props on a lot, i think its 256 as well.

[VeTram]

friend Jeff , thanks for your support once again...My pc is a Pentium4 3.00GHz 1,00 GB RAM  WinXP home edition Service Pack 3. I estimate at least 3 large cities ..hope it will handle that..we will see ..props limit agreed on 256 , if we are correct..

Yes! my friend Jeff , it seems there is a lot of work ahead  ...Personally i like challenges , and i dont afraid of hard work , since i know exactly what i have to do. The problem here is that i do NOT know exactly what i have to do , and that makes the challenge even harder..of course that makes me feel a little anxious and nervous  ..so i count a lot in your support and help , and everything will depend on that...

piers ,piers ,piers , as seen in pics there are a lot of piers around ...good question my friend, a very first decision ...should we keep the diagonal piers or make them straight?....
Well , as it may seen in the pics , even the first pier we are going to deal with,  is NOT a straight one...I completely agree with you Jeff , that there aren't many choices for diagonal piers , even diagonal seawalls , so necessarily most of the piers and seawalls will be straight , and in some cases must be diagonal in favour of realism. I will surely return in the future ,to that subject , for the present we keep it into our mind..

So , let's ..pray  and start work with the pier in the image above .  i suggest to be straight also , and since i have changed it many times since now , i suggest it will be nice if we close follow it's appearance in image , and make it with a narrow corridor ( Width=1 tile) and as for the Depth we will see..

I think that if we add a lighthouse in the end of the pier it will exploit the pier better and generally the Bulk Seaport ( remember this is the place for the Bulk Seaport )  ..The lighthouse of course is an official Maxis  RW (reward) in game , and so here we have to deal with a Reward...Hmmm  perhaps we are already in "deep waters" from the beginning?
so,  we will see , perhaps we may avoid the lighthouse and dont use it in that pier..although it is a good opportunity to learn some interesting things about Rewards i suggest to stay in this and discuss it till we make up a final decision.. should we use a lighthouse or not?  what are the obstacles or constraints?  what kind of lot should we use?  should we take notice other parameters?  I was replied by BarbyW once that it is a fuctional lot with jobs , so we must have a road connection..isn't that so?
So , i think here is the time for the experts to give us a reply ..or of course anyone that can  help..i will wait for responces and see what can we do..

[sam]

Hi Vetram, you once asked me if it was best to make these modular (puzzle pieces), and if you are wanting to keep this as purely a lot making project then I think the answer is yes, it will need to be modular. Otherwise you are going to need a lot of custom BATs made for the project.

There are some pre-existing BATs that you could use, but I don't think any of them will be in the layout you want. So it might be a good idea to make a few lots with the basic pieces you need that can then be put together in different arrangements in your city.

I would also suggest you keep it very simple in the beginning. Start with one lot, and do only the very basics that you absolutely need. You can progress to more advanced things later if you need to.

So you've identified that you want a light house. I suggest you don't try to make it a reward as that is quite difficult and you can always do a reward version later if you want. I think it would be best to first make it a simple landmark or park. You can also add jobs to it later if you want, but first I suggest you make a simple landmark or park and work on choosing the building, props and getting the look of the lot right. This is always the first step in any lotting project. (After cleaning out your plugins folder of course)

Assuming you are going to use this lot in a situation where you can use the lighthouse prop, the easy way to do this would be to pick one of the in game parks, such as the small plaza as your base lot. This lot has an invisible building, so you can just place your lighthouse prop on it. You can then use Save As in the lot editor.

This method does have the disadvantage that there may be a bit more modding to do when you get to adding jobs to it, as it is better to start with a landmark lot to add jobs to (the reason is that Simgoober's tutorial to add jobs was written using a landmark as the example, so you can follow it directly if you used a landmark base lot. If you use a park, which is a little bit different, you may need to work out the extra steps for yourself, rather than just being able to follow the tutorial).

This method also won't work if you want your lighthouse to be placed out in the sea on its own. It would need to be a building to do this. However if you were going to do this, then you wouldn't be able to have jobs on it, as it would have no road access.

I think Jeronij also had a light house, so you might want to consider finding that and using it. I think it had a base to the lighthouse, whereas I don't think the Maxis one does. But it depends which prop will better suit your needs. You will need to try them to find out which is best.

[jmdude1]

hello again antoni,
i tried a search on the stex at simtrop. for a lighthouse and there are bunch of them there. im not sure if there is 1 to suit your building style or not. also, i gave you a link to the japanese fishing bats in the 'show your seaport' thread. in 1 of those packs there is a lighthouse which can be seen in my pic. its an overhanging prop which might help, or not, just thought i would let you know.

[FrankU]

Hey JMdude1, this is a very nice harbour!
Where did you get the props and lots..... Let me guess, are they NOB's fishing port?

I am really curious what this development is going to show.

[VeTram]

Welcome sam , i appreciate a lot your help and support

Well , following sam's advice , for the present we will forget about RW'S ...so let's return back in the beginning of project , that is the lighthouse-pier..

-I will try to describe my attempt , step by step , creating a functional custom lot with the lighthouse-pier  , as by this way it will be easier to correct me , whenever i am wrong...OK?

STEP1:  I must finally decide what lighthouse should i use....I prefered to use the lighthouse from Maxis RW'S , as i thought it suit better to a realistic Greek lighthouse ( i have seen some pics in web) . But if i prefer to use a landmark lot ( as sam proposed ) , following SimGoober's tutorial , i ought to make a building for the lighthouse. OK? .....I know there is a way to do so , but in order to keep things simple in the beginning , i finally decided to find a model file from another lighthouse . I searced again , and finally i decided to use the lighthouse by ger ( found it in STEX ) . Of course , it isn't realistic at all , for a Greek port , but i liked it mostly than others.. I download it and there are all files ( model , desc, lot ) .. so , we found a model file!

STEP2: If i want to follow Simgoober's tutorial i must now drag'n'drop my model file into the Building/Cs$ Descriptor. OK? Of course i know , that Simgoober made so , because this helps to get a baseline for some of the values we will need for our functional landmark lot. But at this point i have to ask something....is it the same with what we want for our lighthouse-pier?  or in other words..does the properties of Cs$ type of building suits to the properties we want for our custom lot?  perhaps should we use another type of building?  ( i hope you understand what i want to mean ) 
I will stop here and wait for an answer , before i will go on . But i will return back very soon , so pls if anyone knows we need the answer in order to continue fast ..thanx

Jeff , thanks a lot for your image. Very nice port my friend , you really have made a nice work ,and your seaport looks very nice, but the lighthouse is completely out of realism for a Greek seaport...thanx anyway my friend

FrankU , hehe i am also curious my friend ,   feel free to express your opinion , and your thoughts ...stay with us , and i hope in the continuation we will all be satisfied with the result .. thanx for your participation    ...i really hope new friends will arrive and support .

[BarbyW]

I would suggest that to start with you make a simple landmark or park with the lighthouse model. If you add jobs it has to have road access and you may not want that. If you drag your model to the Landmark or Park branch in PIM you can then start from a Maxis lot and replace the building on the lot OR you can make a prop out of the model and use a Maxis park to start with. The Maxis parks have an invisible building and so you just remove all the props on the lots and add your lighthouse prop. You can thne finish the lot with new base/overlay textures and other props if you wish.

[sam]

Parks and Landmarks are quite similar in function, so its not really much of a difference between the two kinds. They are more similar than Parks or Landmarks are to any of the growable types.

But its important to remember that the function of a lot (how it works and the effect it has) depends on its type. So you should always start with a type that has most of the functions you want. If you want a ploppable, then you should start with a ploppable ie a park or landmark. It is easier to add jobs to a landmark or park than it is to turn a growable (eg Cs$)  into a ploppable. So always start with a ploppable type if that is the function you want in the final version. You will make it too hard on yourself if you do it the other way around.

[VeTram]

thanks BarbyW  thanks sam 

another question pls....if i transform a little the original Lighthouse Reward , OR any other RW ( e.g just make the lot smaller , and delete some props) would that affect in any way the original Lighthouse RW function in the game?  and i am asking so because i can read in the RW's menu that for example the lighthouse reward "improves efficiency of seaports".. so should still improve efficiency of seaport a RW that has been transformed a little  as wrote before?

[jmdude1]

franku: i found the fishing boat/lighthouse/nets files here: http://tokitoko.hp.infoseek.co.jp/lot.htm

unfortunately the pics are gone. there are 3 sets to download and they are all at the bottom of the page with the names fishingport, fishingport1 and fishingport2. just hover your mouse over the links to see the names of the files. im not sure if they were made by nob or not.

for the docks and the rusty building at the top, they came from the upgradeable seaport props packages.

[dsrwhat316]

@ VeTram:

Changing the lot in the Lot Editor shouldn't change any of the reward properties or effects that it gives. Note that using the Lot Editor just changes the lot's physical appearance, not the YIMBY/NIMBY effects. I hope that was concise; sometimes I'm not good at explaining things 

~ Dan

[BarbyW]

It will only change the original reward if you Save which is all you will do if you just use the Maxis Reward lot to start with. Also don't believe all that Maxis claimed in their reward lots.

[VeTram]

Welcome dsrwhat316 , and be sure that you are very good at explaining things , as i completely understood what you wrote . In fact , this is exactly what i was asking to know!.

Before continue , some important comments..
1) .. something to mention about the lighthouse i decided to use by ger. Finally i will not use it ,( at least for the present )  simple  because i realised that it is not 1 tile in width , which is the size i want to keep the pier ( 1 tile in width). 
2)... after the replies from friends ( thanks again)...i am not sure if i will make it a functional lot , because i am afraid that i was not so accurate in my question , and i was misundertood.
In the continuation , where we will have and the image, perhaps it will be easier to show you what exactly i want to mean , and the answer will come automatically...we will see...( sometimes my poor english doesn't help me) . 
3)...and finally there it doesn't make sense , to continue writting about steps , as we have arrived at a point that i am trying to create just a simple custom lot ( may be functional )

-Now , lets focus in the first custom lot which is the lighthouse-pier of course..
I have many times search into Google images ,for an image of a typical lighthouse. I have found an image , but for an unkown reason for me i cannot save it , in order to post it here. So , i give the link here..http://www.flickr.com/photos/mopop/1030498800/....In this image is a typical , simple lighthouse in a Greek port entrance , (in fact there are two lighthouses , green and red, but in our case we care about one ) which is very close to what i had into my mind from the first time.. And i am not talking only about the lighthouse ( as a building) , but i am talking about everything aroung it..( i mean the seawall , some stairs as you see  , maybe a little warehouse etc) ..of course i always keep whatever like , and i add something else's that i would like to see also in lot.
I think IMO , that this is infact the very first step , for a lotterer. I mean to find an image/images , to something similar that has into mind , and get the inspiration to create it. Am i right? ...
Now that you have the source of inspiration in your mind , perhaps you can understand easier what i want to do with the lighthouse..and as you will firstly realise that there are not about the same lighthouses everywhere in Simtro , or SC4Dev. Perhaps this is chance , to request from creators to think about creating them ..they look simple and very realistic in my opinion..
Anyway , for the present as wrote i will use Maxis lighthouse ( perhaps later , i shall change it , nothing is sure in this project.. )
Next , we must find whatever else's prop we want to add in the lighthouse pier.. I have an idea to put a small office or warehouse or something similar , and put the lighthouse over it..then perhaps a steel stair for the building ( which i absolutely cannot find anywhere...perhaps they exist.. ) ...notice also some other stairs that coming down to the sea..very nice IMO.. seawalls , may be a small parking , etc etc.... Perhaps this prop's browse , is the even more difficult than finding the right image on web..but as far as i can feel it , it is the most necessary step for a lotterer. I feel a prop is the heart of any custom lot , and the part of L.E that i enjoy most.. You see , we are left behind all technical subjects , and we have arrived into more artistic subjects , which is IMO , the most interesting part of lotting.. I think this is the main reason , that made me decide to deal with L.E..
Here i would like to ask for help , as i am not so experienced into that , and write me your opinion , if there is a prop  you can propose..(of course i am looking also for props , in fact this is something i look for at least the last two weeks) and this is something i will always ask you to do it together ...i think Badsim is an expert on this  , but anyone can help..I have asked in the past , if there is a solution to find easily a needed prop , but i didnt get any safe answer..perhaps is there anything else's that i do not know?..
waiting forward for any suggestion .. ....will return back soon

[BarbyW]

I have made you a prop exemplar of the Maxis light house and am attaching it here for you. Place it in your plugins folder and it should appear in the prop list in LE under the name Lighthouse. You ask bout stairs for your light house. These would not show in game and would be difficult to make as a separate prop. It may be that there are some lighthouses in production that have the stairs built in but otherwise I am afraid you will have to compromise and do without.
As has been answered in previous posts, there is NO easy way to find a prop. There are 1000s available in the various packs and lots and it would be a huge undertaking to log them all. You just have to learn what is where. If you are looking for some more ships similar to Peg's then have a look at citynut's WFK prop pack
The only way to get exactly what you need at any one time would be to learn to make them yourself in gMax and BAT. Most of the time we all have to compromise unless we have the ability to make things ourselves or do the modding of, for example, offsetting props.

[Badsim]

Hi Antoni .

As introduction , let me tell you that I'm not sure to be the expert teacher you're expecting as I've got an evident tendency to think that all what is obvious for me is obvious for everybody ... I remember to have had a few bad teachers like that ! 

That said , after have read your 2 threads , I can see a lot of tenacity and I think this is the only thing really needed to get the skill level in LotEditing you're dreaming about , and I will help you as much as I can . You'll need to learn about PluginManager , LEprop , ILive reader and SC4Tool as well ; it took me years !

Well ... a lot of questions so , and already a lot of replies !

Firstly , have to come back about the 256 props per Lot ... 256 is the number of objects and not only props , each base texture and overlay being objects as well as props . You can have from 256 to 1280 objects per Lot , depending the LotConfigPropertyLotObbject readable with Ilive Reader ...



This property extend from 0x88EDC900 (256) to 0x88EDCDFF (1280) and as far as I know , you can't change it .(Thanks to Jeroni & Wouanagaine who taught me that .)

Secondly , as BarbyW told you , there's no easy way to find the props you're wanting . My suggestion is to take time ( a lot lot lot of time !) to browse with LE all the props you have in your plugin folder and , selecting all you're interested by , to create large "Inventory Lots" with them .
Some of mines ...



I know how it sounds tedious but I don't know another way and it will save a lot of time for the future . Then , don't forget to browse as well each new props pack you will install and with a lot of practice you will memorize almost all of them ...

About your current project , seaports isn't a subject I've worked on since a very long time ... so I'm not the most well-able to give you informations about these props . This is an old (2005) and outdated picture from AntigOne's seaport - never shown in details at SC4Devotion .



Just be sure you can do almost all what you want ! And be a little more patient with me , I'll be more active again in October ....

Later .

Cedric.

[VeTram]

Hi everybody! ....

Yesterday night , when i returned back home and opened this thread , i was really  when i show a reply from great artist Badsim! ...I really couldnt believed into my eyes .....and when i finished reading his post , i can only say that...Badsim ( is it Cedric your name? ) you really made me feel happy ....I Thank you so much ,indeed , i really was touched by your post...  Believe me , you give me a lot of courage to continue , and when i have such friends like you , sam , BarbyW , Jeff , and all other friends , everything seems to be much more easier for me...I will be waiting forward for you Badsim , whenever you have the time to be with us...Thank you so much once more for your interesting and your nice words for me..
So , my friends , as you see we have great news!!....There are many news to share with all of you , but please forgive me for this post to be quite short..I will update very soon...(at least , i hope so.. )..For the present , i dont want to forget to thanks a lot BarbyW for her kindness to send me the zip file with the lighthouse exemplar. In my next post i will mention also about that.. thanks BarbyW