about growing frequency

[goddy]

hi here.
i have one question about custom BAT growing frequency.
does anyone have a tutorial about how to change the frequency of custom BAT growing in my city?  i mean i want one particular type of store to grow more in my city.
i searched over the forum, and read about this thread, Converting a Ploppable into a Growable lot http://sc4devotion.com/forums/index.php?topic=2550.msg76784#msg76784, and guess the value of Capacity Satisfied maybe influence the frequency some, but still afraid of changing the value wrong.
hope someone can gimme a clue, thanks in advance.

_{I have moved this thread to MODding Game Simulators Help requests from Where can I find this....?¿, since it belongs there better. (CasperVg - 11/29/08 CET)}

[wouanagaine]

You can't

The game decide which stage to grow, and then randomly choose a growable in that stage set over all your plugins.

[Ennedi]

...But in the particular growth stage it often happens that some lots grow much more often than others, so it doesn't look as the fully random process 
Maybe there are any parameters deciding about it (directly or indirectly), I'm interested in it too!

[Diggis]

...But in the particular growth stage it often happens that some lots grow much more often than others, so it doesn't look as the fully random process 
Maybe there are any parameters deciding about it (directly or indirectly), I'm interested in it too!

What you'll probably find is there are multiple Lots for a particular buildings so it has a higher chance of cropping up.

[xxdita]

It's not entirely random exactly.
Notice that JMeyers tends to mod his works about the same as a lot of Maxis buildings that seem to grow too much. By doing this, the game now has to decide on one of the now several buildings that will fit the particular need at the time (Stage, Wealth, Capacity, etc). Whereas with Vanilla alone, there isn't that option for the game, so you get numerous buildings exactly the same.
When buildings grow, or upgrade, it's based on the Stage and Wealth Caps first, then the actual capacity of the building.
Try playing with CAM, and having a number of preCAM Stage 8's installed, and you'll see what I mean.

[Ennedi]

Thank you Diggis, it is definitely a reason of higher growth frequency for some buildings. But it doesn't seem that's all. For example, an excellent ODD Kempinski (R$$$ version) grows very often. It's size is 2x4, but it grows also on 4x4 zones very easy (in this case 2 identical buildings grow on the zone). And it doesn't seem this building has multiple lots. Anyway, I will try to check it 

[Pat]

It's not entirely random exactly.
Notice that JMeyers tends to mod his works about the same as a lot of Maxis buildings that seem to grow too much. By doing this, the game now has to decide on one of the now several buildings that will fit the particular need at the time (Stage, Wealth, Capacity, etc). Whereas with Vanilla alone, there isn't that option for the game, so you get numerous buildings exactly the same.
When buildings grow, or upgrade, it's based on the Stage and Wealth Caps first, then the actual capacity of the building.
Try playing with CAM, and having a number of preCAM Stage 8's installed, and you'll see what I mean.

Nate you hit this right on the head here and what a better way to explain it that the more the choices of something the less something else will grow as often in that stage!!! CAM is the best way to go honestly, why I say cause it give a greater growth stages and allows for more of a challenge in your city...  if you don't want any maxis growing at all there is also available the BSC no Maxis Blocker on the LEX...

[RippleJet]

This is a quote from Prima's Strategy Guide, which usually isn't worth the paper it's written on.
However, the chapter about building development may give some additional information...





On any given day, the simulation follows a series of steps to determine where and what to develop.

1. Choose Developer Type
The simulation begins by choosing a developer type. The process is not random, as developer types with high demand are more likely to be chosen. To be eligible for selection, the developer type must have positive demand.

2. Rank by Desirability
The simulation ranks appropriately zoned tracts (R, C, or I) in order of desirability to the chosen developer type. If the chosen developer type was Cs§§, all C-zoned tracts would be ranked by their desirability to Cs§§. To qualify, a tract must have a desirability of at least 50. (My note: the size of a tract is 4×4 tiles).

3. Try to Build
When a tract is chosen, several issues arise, any of which could cause the simulator to give up on the chosen tract and try the next one on its list. These include:

Zone Compatibility
You can't build a Residential building on a Commercial lot, but a chosen tract could have among its 16 tiles more than one zone type. If nothing can be built on the tiles of the correct zone type, the tract is not developed.

Displacement of Current Residents
In SimCity 4, the development system is geared around maximizing usage of existing structures. This can mean looking to move the chosen developer type into already inhabited buildings on the selected tract before building new ones.
If a chosen tract contains an occupant of a given wealth level, the current occupants can be supplanted only if the chosen developer type is wealthier.

Road and Job Access
Every lot must have access to a Road or Street before it can be developed. Residential Sims have an additional requirement, they must be able to use those Roads to get to a job.

Reoccupy Vacated Buildings
The simulator tries to re-inhibit abandoned buildings rather than demolishing them and building something new or starting fresh in an empty lot.

Choose an Appropriately Sized Lot
Within a tract, the simulator chooses the best lot for the chosen developer type. If necessary, it will redraw the dimensions of the lot to be larger (aggregation) or smaller (subdivision). In some cases, a superceded house (or houses) will be demolished to make way for larger or smaller lots.

Choose the Building Size - Stage Limits
In this phase the stage limits come into play.
The current population dictates which building stage will be constructed. The simulator selects the largest size (ie. growth stage, my note) permitted under the stage limit. This choice is guided by the stage proportions, as the correct balance between sizes must be maintained. For example, if there are already the maximum percentage of Stage 3 houses and not enough Stage 2, a Stage 2 building will be developed.
In the case of redevelopment, an existing structure won't be demolished unless it can be replaced by a higher stage building. You cannot change a building to another building of the same stage. There is one exception, however: If the new building is to be a wealthier developer type, then demolition can occur.

Stage Caps
We have a location selected and we have a building. The only thing standing between us and development are the stage caps. If one of them trumps the selected building, a lower stage alternative must be found or the tract will be rejeceted.
Slope issues and the water and power supply are considered at this point. If the tract is permitted by the stage caps to build at the chosen stage, construction can begin.
If for example, the chosen building is a Stage 4 Residential building, the tract must have water service. If any of the applicable stage caps prevent development, the simulator moves on to the next tract on its list and we begin again.





There are a couple of open questions though...

Choose an Appropriately Sized Lot
How is this chosen? Obviously buildings larger than the tract size can grow.
Are the desirability factors in that case only checked for the selected tract (4×4)?

Choose the Building Size - Stage Limits
What determines which building is chosen that fits into the chosen lot size? Is occupancy a criterion?
If all buildings within the same stage and same lot size have roughly the same occupancy, we know that they have the same chance of growing.
Experience also shows that buildings with higher occupancies are preferred and may become weeds...

[jmyers2043]

Ripple Jet gives good advise. In addition to what he said - I'd like to add the following

CHOOSE THE BUILIDING SIZE – STAGE LIMITS. The cities current population dictates which building stage will be constructed. The game will select the largest building permitted for the particular stage its trying to grow.

Scenario one - I recently did a set of three story commercial buildings. They were intended to grow at or about the same time as the Maxis Bennett Music. The Maxis Plug In Manager and the XTool (in development) assigned each building with a different number of jobs. This is because of slight differences between building sizes. The range of jobs was actually from 82 to 102. What happened is that the smaller "Century" building grew by ones or two's or not at all. While the larger "42 Building" grew most frequently. It seemed that the simulator bypassed the smaller buildings choosing the larger one which offered the most jobs. One factor in my test cities was that I had healthy commercial demand and a rather young city. What did I do? I took an average and altered the jobs so each building is the same.  Doing that made for more variety as they now grow more equally. Although the Prima guide doesn't say, but I think nevertheless, that demand plays a role. Healthy demand (my opinion) encourages the simulator to choose to build the largest building of a stage type. And the simulator will choose smaller buildings if the demand is weaker.

By now, you should see why it is important for batters to select the correct stage growth and correct number of workers for their buildings. In the past, not an exact science I might add. And some folk did better than others.

Sceneraio two: I used the XTool last December and redid my entire plugins. Every single building got looked at and adjusted. And every single lot was examined and the stage growth adjusted if necessary. So what happened? SimGoobers "Steve's Adult Theater" started to grow like mad. I had to put down numerous riots. Why? The Adult movie house had the greatest volume (size) for a 1X2 lot than any other building I had and consequently I had increased its capacity. Giving it the most jobs for a building for its stage growth. And it grew like hot cakes in my early cities when the demand for low stage CS$ was high. I reduced the jobs making it consistent with similar other early commercials. It grows less frequently. 

The final analysis? Think two things. Does this building offer too many jobs for its stage? If so, then you can either adjust the stage growth of the lot to the next higher stage or reduce the number of jobs downward so that it is similar to other buildings that you want the game to grow at the same time.

[HandsOn]

While I am beginning to understand how buildings grow at a particular stage, I now would like to know if there's a way to block certain buildings froms the Maxis set (two ugly blue ones: Blue Denim & Reflect System at one stage simply flood my smaller cities)? I know you can remove all but that seems extreme..

[RippleJet]

(two ugly blue ones: Blue Denim & Reflect System at one stage simply flood my smaller cities)

Attached are two simple blockers that will stop these from appearing.
Those that have already grown will still be functional and upgrade though.

[HandsOn]

Attached are two simple blockers that will stop these from appearing.
Those that have already grown will still be functional and upgrade though.

Gee, thanks, RippleJet - true to your name, you're supersonic. Out of curiosity, can one thus block any residential, commercial or industrial lot from maxis??

[RippleJet]

Out of curiosity, can one thus block any residential, commercial or industrial lot from maxis??

Yes!

[HandsOn]

Yes!

All I need to find out now is houw to do it..

Kiittää Te

[xxdita]

Simple enough really. Change the Growth Stage for the lot to 255.
Take a look at the BSC No Maxis blocker.

[HandsOn]

Simple enough really. Change the Growth Stage for the lot to 255.
Take a look at the BSC No Maxis blocker.

Thanks. Everything is simple when one knows how - which I rarely do (you ought to see the troubles I have with LE, SC4T, iReader, GMAX, et al) 

[RippleJet]

Simple enough really. Change the Growth Stage for the lot to 255.
Take a look at the BSC No Maxis blocker.

Blocking by setting the growth stage to 255 would not enable the exisiting ones to upgrade though.
Instead, those two I attached above have been stripped from the tilesets (Euro) in the Occupant Groups.

Doing it this way would however require you to make separate blockers if the occupancy is different in RH and CAM.
This is above all applicable for industrial buildings, all of which have changed occupancies for the CAM.

[Ennedi]

...And the next interesting discussion has began!  

I'm also beginning to understand the buildings growth principles, especially after reading Tage's (RippleJet) and Jim (JMyers) messages. Thank you very much!

Simple enough really. Change the Growth Stage for the lot to 255.
Take a look at the BSC No Maxis blocker.

Yes, and I see Tage used another method in his blockers, it seems he removed an information about the building style from the "Occupant Groups" property  

(Edit: I see Tage explained it yet  )

I have a few questions:
1. As I understand, blockers for particular buildings prevent these building against growth, but they don't affect these of them which already exist in the city (because they grew before we installed the blocker). Am I right? If yes, it means that I can block the particular building temporarily installing and removing the blocker.
2. The second question is connected with Jim's information. Let's say I want to replace the particular building by the other one, but I haven't blockers for all other buildings which could grow at this place in this stage (or I simply haven't time), so I want to use a more brutal method, ie. clicking Ctrl X and using BuildingPlop command. Of course I should choose a building of the same growth stage and wealth level, but what about it's amount of jobs? It seems if I will replace a building by a bit smaller one, it shouldn't affect the simulator work, but if I will put a larger one, it can have some bad effects. Am I right?

[xxdita]

Perhaps the BSC No Maxis needs to be redone then, to allow for installation on an existing region?

I'll hold off on answering the first part of your question, Adam.
But as for 2) Plopping a building, even if the demand is there can have side-effects, though usually they are minimal if the situation is controlled, ie plopping the same Stage over an existing building. If the building you plop is the same Stage as the one you're replacing, then as long as both were modded properly in the first place, there shouldn't be a noticeable difference.

[RippleJet]

1. As I understand, blockers for particular buildings prevent these building against growth, but they don't affect these of them which already exist in the city (because they grew before we installed the blocker). Am I right? If yes, it means that I can block the particular building temporarily installing and removing the blocker.

That is true if the blocker is made by removing the tileset, but not if the growth stage is set to 255.

Perhaps the BSC No Maxis needs to be redone then, to allow for installation on an existing region?

And there are some ideas being tossed across the Atlantic in that respect...