How to control buildings to grow?

[buckbeach]

You wrote "Residential & industrial plopped Lots work when they are plopped on already existing ones . The only thing which doesn't work is the commute time query , from that  lot of people said that inhabitants of these residences can't go away their homes to find a job . That's not as simple as that , I think so because these Lots aren't abandoned , their number of inhabitants is counted in the global population of the city and they influence visibly and permanently on the RCI demand ... "

Even before the cheat mode, I found that you could in fact keep the residents from disappearing, albeit as mentioned, they did not go to work.  So I rationalized, they represented other occupations and non-working people (some civil workers, retired, welfare recipients, etc) and you can control where you want these to live and in the type of structure.  There are still problems.  They don't use the school and health facilities and , I think, they don't pay taxes.

[Badsim]

Thanks buckbeach for these useful precisions . As I said , what I'm telling about so far is personal observations ... as I've got only a few plopped residential and industrial  Lots among growing ones , I wouldn't have been able to tell you who is using schools and health facilities , who don't ...
In the same way I'm guessing these inhabitants don't generate crime and garbage . At least there's a certain logical for they don't pay taxes .
More seriously I hope that others informations will come as well so we can make our own opinion about the inconveniences and advantages of plopped Lots , so each of us will be able to say " I can live with" , or not ...
Personally , so far , I can . But , these Lots having been created more than 2 years ago , I would be now totally able to make them growable ....

[buckbeach]

Thanks buckbeach for these useful precisions . As I said , what I'm telling about so far is personal observations ... as I've got only a few plopped residential and industrial  Lots among growing ones , I wouldn't have been able to tell you who is using schools and health facilities , who don't ...
In the same way I'm guessing these inhabitants don't generate crime and garbage . At least there's a certain logical for they don't pay taxes .
More seriously I hope that others informations will come as well so we can make our own opinion about the inconveniences and advantages of plopped Lots , so each of us will be able to say " I can live with" , or not ...
Personally , so far , I can . But , these Lots having been created more than 2 years ago , I would be now totally able to make them growable ....

Set up a simple test city and let it run a couple of years.  Let it populate with growing residents. Stop the game and check your resident taxes.  Then replace all the growing lots with plop residents and let it run for several months.  Then place a known good school and health clinic (I say good because a few older ones didn't function) close by and let the game run a couple of more months.  This test is not complicate and sets up pretty fast.  Check your taxes to see if they changed.  think you will see what I previously reported is correct and that there are no students and no sick senior citizens.

[Ennedi]

I see this thread is very informative!

But... maybe it would be good to formulate some conclusions?
Ploppable residentials are a side theme here, but it's important. So I would like to ask, what in fact is better to do with ploppable residentials (for example from Paris set)? To leave them as they are (we can block the dilapidation, but I don't know how dangerous for the simulation are effects you described), or rather to make them landmarks, or make them growable and control like other growables?

And - what is the sense of making ploppable residentials knowing what you explained here?

[Badsim]

Obviously Adam , the best way is growable . Simply  I have read so many time this terse reply : "That doesn't work ! "

And - what is the sense of making ploppable residentials knowing what you explained here?

What was the sense , for my concern ... the same than for FranckU which has opened the thread . I never have seen the "Complexe Monappart " ( which has maybe different nanes for each country as in french this name is a pun ) , and which is one of the best orignal Maxis residence ( so no question to use any NoMAXISMod ...) grow naturally . That's a vaste debat , Adam , depending of the purpose and the level of each player ... compromise with the game purpose and requirements . That's a game after all , need to be fun surely more than academic when we start to play with .

I've never replied to SAC ; Plop them ! ... we know both that this period of innocence is ended now ....  

[buckbeach]

I wanted to make this a separate post from my last one to make sure it gets ATTENTION. 

I ran a very quick test as I suggested and discovered that I WAS ALL WET.  Clinics and schools do attract at least some students and patients.  Additionally, taxes are generated in accordance with the Wealth Level of the occupant lot plopped The taxes collected are way excessive and this could be a game killer..

A further more lengthy test is needed but I WANTED to report my error.

Sorry for the confusion,

NOTE I REPLACED EVERY GROWING LOT WITH THOSE PLOPS.

[jplumbley]

In the past, Wouanagaine and I have entertained this idea about controlling growable buildings.  We have found it definately possible to certain extents by using the Zone Type and OGs (Building Styles).  The biggest problem is it would differ on personal levels for everyone and the amount of work involved would be extremely too much compared to the amount of benefit.

In an experiment I made for myself well over a year ago.  I changed the Zone Type for all my custom content Commercial lots.  I made it so that CS grew on Light Density Commercial Zones, CO$$ grew on Medium Density and CO$$$ grew on High Density.  This allowed me to zone for Commercial type rather than general Commercial.  

There are ways to control this even more.  You can then add building styles into the mix as a control agent.  By restricting a building to a certain Building Style it is possible for you to set everything into 4 "stages".  What I experimented with next was making it so the four Building Styles represented a different stage in the game.  For Example:

New York = Stage 1 to 2
Chicago = Stage 3 to 4
Houston = Stage 5 to 6
Euro = Stage 7 to 8

With CAM you could set the Building Styles to cover 4 stages each.

So, by editing each Lot File and Building Description you could set it so that you can control the "Density" (Stage) and the Building Type (CS, CO$$, CO$$$, etc).  This will allow you to form zone certain areas and have them grow as a suburbs or skyscrapers, R$ or R$$$.  But, it is ALOT of work!  Editing every Lot File to be only growable on a certain zone type and every Building Description so that it only grows in a certain building style is too much too do for such, unless there was a concensus and everyone would be happy with control to this effect.  Another side effect which you will have to implement to prevent "upgrading" would be that you need to make everything historical when is grows, unless you want that section to upgrade.

The easiest way to implement something like this might be with CAM, since most CAM users will only use CAMpatible lots and not use things that are not CAMalized.  

[Xiziz]

Intresting Jplumbley, becuase this is more or less exactly what i was planning on dooing to my growables when X-tool is availible for general use, aswell as CAM-ifying all my lots.

[SAC]

I've never replied to SAC ; Plop them ! ... we know both that this period of innocence is ended now ....  

Sure Badsim, I could obviously plop them, but I also want my city to function properly!   Although interesting topic, I believe - different ideas or not - that I'll start with the "zone-and-wait"-process for the time being.  As mentioned, I don't care soo much about the way my downtown or industrial areas develop, but rather the opposite as far as residential areas concerns. 

[Ennedi]

There is also another problem with the "zone-and-wait" method.It is connected with using landmarks.
Some landmark increase commercial demand or create the park effect, which have an influence on the wealth level in residential zones. So, if you want to place a particular landmark, and you want to have low or middle wealth Res buildings close to it, you can have a problem.

I think it is quite easy to solve - it's simple to change these landmark properties, but it is good to remember about it.
There are some other lots increasing the wealth level, such as BSC Parks (to be honest, I used them often to make residential zones more attractive for rich citizens ) But their influence radius is not very big - as I remember, about 15-20 tiles (although it can be too much for somebody).

[FrankU]

In fact we are not talking about one big issue: is plopping good or bad?

I am sure that everyone has their own ideas... exactly as it should be.

I do have the feeling that when I start plopping buildings there will be no game anymore.
Although I use cheats, so the real challenge of building a city, trying to keep citizens content and keep financial balance is completely screwed up, I still feel that I am playing a city simulator game....
When I plop buildings like I plop parks and infrastructure I am sure I will end up plopping everything. So there will be no coincidences, I have to think of everything myself and I will never leave the day of january 3rd in the year 1.

It can be very rewarding for some people, but I have the feeling that it will not be a game anymore.

So I wanted to have the possibility to influence some things, but leave other things to chance...
The plopping discussion always atteracts me, because it can be very rewarding to plop the city exactly as I want it (propbably some day I will build a city this way), but still, as said before, being able to influence the buildig that grows is my objective.

All of you that have answered my questions have taught me some new things and I thank you for that.

[Badsim]

I wanted to make this a separate post from my last one to make sure it gets ATTENTION. 

I ran a very quick test as I suggested and discovered that I WAS ALL WET.  Clinics and schools do attract at least some students and patients.  Additionally, taxes are generated in accordance with the Wealth Level of the occupant lot plopped The taxes collected are way excessive and this could be a game killer..

A further more lengthy test is needed but I WANTED to report my error.

Sorry for the confusion,

NOTE I REPLACED EVERY GROWING LOT WITH THOSE PLOPS.

I confirm ! Have set up a city with all facilities , then replaced all growables by ploppables ... have let this city run for 100 years with a population of 6600 inhabitants (a lot more than with the previous growables ) , no dilapidation/abandonment , school ( and a college ) and health facility normally used ( with the corresponding use increase due to the population increase ) , they pay taxes and generate crime ( the police station is used with arrestations ) . The only thing they don't seem to generate is garbage ...

Interesting , isn't it ?   

@ SAC , no misunderstanding ; I didn't reply you "Plop them" , oppsositely I was replying to others that I have never replied you to plop them .

That said ... it seems so far that the only thing which  doesn't work surely is the commute time query , in others words they don't work "visibly" for the player , but the game engine see them ... 

[FrankU]

Badsim, does this work with R$, R$$ and R$$$?
And does it work with Industry as well?
Somehow it always seemed to have worked for Commercial?

When you experiment further, and find your answers, maybe it's time for a new tutorial about this?

I think this will be interesting for everyone on this site.

[Badsim]

Yes, I keep on experiment this ... these's a few things that I don't understand . In that city I've plopped commercial Lots too . To verify , I've destroy all residences ... with 0 inhabitants , school , health facility and police station are unused again as expected , but the commercial  Lots are still employing people !

I'll give some news when I'll have some ...

[buckbeach]

In fact we are not talking about one big issue: is plopping good or bad?

I am sure that everyone has their own ideas... exactly as it should be.

I do have the feeling that when I start plopping buildings there will be no game anymore.
Although I use cheats, so the real challenge of building a city, trying to keep citizens content and keep financial balance is completely screwed up, I still feel that I am playing a city simulator game....
When I plop buildings like I plop parks and infrastructure I am sure I will end up plopping everything. So there will be no coincidences, I have to think of everything myself and I will never leave the day of january 3rd in the year 1.

It can be very rewarding for some people, but I have the feeling that it will not be a game anymore.

So I wanted to have the possibility to influence some things, but leave other things to chance...
The plopping discussion always atteracts me, because it can be very rewarding to plop the city exactly as I want it (propbably some day I will build a city this way), but still, as said before, being able to influence the buildig that grows is my objective.

All of you that have answered my questions have taught me some new things and I thank you for that.

You of course are correct.  I find the controlling of the growables and the ability to use plopables work toward the same goal.  We are (I think) trying to get a city that looks the way we would each like to have it look.  For me I want it to function somewhat as intended as opposed to the sandbox eye candy quasi Lego puzzle.  Not criticizing that but I like the game aspect.  I too use the cheats and really try to rationalize where I can.

Thank you for start the thread and keeping the spirit alive.

[buckbeach]

Yes, I keep on experiment this ... these's a few things that I don't understand . In that city I've plopped commercial Lots too . To verify , I've destroy all residences ... with 0 inhabitants , school , health facility and police station are unused again as expected , but the commercial  Lots are still employing people !

I'll give some news when I'll have some ...

Did you also find that the tax income was excessive? 

One other thing that I noticed is that, although it doesn't show, the plopped residents are going to work.  I have no connections to other cities but there is still a sufficient workforce for the local economy.  It also seems like every person in every household goes to work.  When I look at the regional view the population and the commercial/industrial workers are almost equal as opposed to the stay at home portion of the residents in a normal game.  This could be the cause for the aforementioned tax issue.

[FrankU]

I have even considered to edit all the downloaded lots so that the values fit into the values of Maxis' original lots. But first: I am too lazy to do it and second: I am too lazy to play the game this hard way. So I play more or less cheating.

Well, some things cannot be achieved by playing like Maxis intended. Last month I started a new region and begun by laying down all primary railways and highways into it. This consumes so much money that you can't really start a city after this has been done. So at least I needed some income to cover the expenses of the infrastructure while it is not yet being used....

I thought of making a Lot that gives me money in a controllable way: I thought if a powerplant costs me money to make energy, I perhaps could build a powerplant that costs me a negative amount of money i.e. gives me money in exchange for energy. So I built one producing 1 MW, and costing me §-10.000,-. But it did not work... Maybe this is a nice idea for a more experienced batter or lotter?

So I planted my one million § park and ran my city for one month.

And the plopping debate becomes more interesting every minute......
Now will you all stop posting? I have some work to do here!

[Badsim]

Did you also find that the tax income was excessive? 

Well , I don't get any tax rate schedule to compare my result ...473$ for 6439 R$$ taxed at 7% ...

[buckbeach]

Well, some things cannot be achieved by playing like Maxis intended. Last month I started a new region and begun by laying down all primary railways and highways into it. This consumes so much money that you can't really start a city after this has been done. So at least I needed some income to cover the expenses of the infrastructure while it is not yet being used....

I thought of making a Lot that gives me money in a controllable way: I thought if a powerplant costs me money to make energy, I perhaps could build a powerplant that costs me a negative amount of money i.e. gives me money in exchange for energy. So I built one producing 1 MW, and costing me §-10.000,-. But it did not work... Maybe this is a nice idea for a more experienced batter or lotter?

So I planted my one million § park and ran my city for one month.

And the plopping debate becomes more interesting every minute......
Now will you all stop posting? I have some work to do here!

As I said before, I rationalize.  Initial highways and RR are subsidized by the Big Brother govt in my games (depending on the wind). The infrastructure in place help make the town look better at the beginning. I rarely get beyond the town level as my style and interest draws to a close after the Small Town stage. I like to start out hard and the use the old Money Gazebo that give $25M a click.  I also use several other quasi cheat mods (hows that for fudging) to facilitate growth, jobs and the economy.

The ploppable issue really deserves its own thread, but, don't want to break the flow of information.


Now back to work.  The luxury of playing all the time is left to old moldy retired persons such as myself (and the rich).

[RippleJet]

Wow, did this thread grow while I was gone for 24 hours...

In fact we are not talking about one big issue: is plopping good or bad?

It did become that to a large extent, and to explain why I think it's a bad idea, I'll show an example with (lots of) images.





Why we should refrain from plopping functional landmarks

The city shown below is from a region with just two equally sized, very small towns:



This city, as well as its neighbour, has a well balanced supply and demand of work and residential homes.
The reported regional residential capacity is 564, and there is a demand for almost every RCI type.



Now, let's say the mayor of this town decided he wanted to speed up its development.
He knows nothing about the simulation of real life, but that cannot be that important...
He is very much interested in being able to say when and where a skyscraper should be built though...

Thus, he calls for some extra moolah, picks a site and plops a tower:



Despite its size, this tower only has slightly above 1,000 jobs, but hey, we need it for the eye-candy effect!
And let's not exaggerate the town's expansion...

Two months after the mayor plopped his tower, the Census Repository is reporting 1,126 CO§§§ jobs in the city.
They also report a massive negative demand for further CO§§§, but that was expected...

And the mayor is particularly satisfied to see an increase in the residential demand, especially R§§.
Maybe this little town could see some highrises already...



Knowing nothing about real life (simulation), he thought he would soon get stage 8 residentials.
Even if only stage 1 houses have appeared so far...

One month later he gets an annoying call from the Census Repository.
People have started to commute into town from elsewhere, 866 in just one month.
And where are they coming from? There isn't enough workforce in the region to explain the commuters coming to us...



And hey, they aren't even working in our town... 540 of them are commuting out of town for work...

Yet another month later the situation has escalated...



Another two months later the situation seems to have stabilized, but the mayor wonders if he should be happy.
The population of his town has grown slightly, and there are lots of vacant jobs:



However, due to his plopping, the regional capacity is now reported to be above 4,000.
That is an imaginary figure though, the real capacity is still about 600, nothing has happened to the neighbouring town...

The reported regional residential capacity is now more than 40% of the long-term regional demand of 9,395. It used to be about 16%...
Plop a bigger tower, and soon there will be enough imaginary residents in the region to halt development alltogether.

Besides, the number of commuters is beahaving irrationally...
There are now 1,749 commuters coming into town and 2,236 going out of town.
But the local workforce is still only 142. Are those commuters breeding?

Now, the mayor got a bit nervous... with thousands of commuter going through his town...
Surely the traffic situation must be horrible now, hope I can still be able to cruise around my quiet neighbourhood.

Looking at the traffic report he was perplexed though:



There are no commuters going through his town, the only traffic across the border are a few freight trucks.
There are only 42 workers in the tower with a current capacity of 1,044.

All those commuters that plopping the tower added are imaginary and eternal.
They have exactly the same effect on the demand simulators as the eternal commute circles around city corners.


Now, this does not mean that you cannot plop functional landmarks in the game.
However, you need to be sure there is a demand for the building you're plopping.

Ploppable commercial towers should be rewards, available only if the actual demand is larger than its capacity.





Ploppable Residentials

Regarding ploppable residentials, I would ask you to consider this:

The residential capacity reported is depending on desirability factors.
If desirability goes down, and the actual capacity drops below 50%, the building will dilapidate or become abandoned.

The biggest residential desirability factor is the employment. If people can't get employed they usually leave as soon as possible.

Desirability can be increased through other factors, e.g. education, health, land value, park effect, lack of crime, etc.
If you're able to compensate the negative effect of unemployment by these factors, you obviously are able to plop residentials.

Likewise, freight time is a desirability factor for industrials, but not as severe as the unemployment for residentials.
Thus, plopped industrials have a lot better chance of surviving.

For a plopped residential not to abandon right away, the desirability factors must be right when plopping.
That is the reason you have to plop them on top of an existing residential building with a good existing employment.

It can be very rewarding for some people, but I have the feeling that it will not be a game anymore.

SC4 is a simulating game above anything else.
Whenever we want to control it and start plopping buildings, we are sidestepping the formulas for the simulation.





Taxation

Well , I don't get any tax rate schedule to compare my result ...473$ for 6439 R$$ taxed at 7% ...

Regardless of whether a building has grown or been plopped, neither the capacity,
nor the actual number of people working/living in a building or city has anything to do with taxation.

Taxation is only a function of the tax rate and the value set in the building's property "Building Value".