Ennedi plays Shosaloza

[Yoman]

Just thought I'd drop in again and say that your work two pages ago has inspired me to start a pet project, building a city in a valley with highways lining either side, and I'm having alot of fun for at it, thank you alot Adam for the inspiration. 

[paroch]

Hi Adam,

The work you put in here is truly amazing.  I must confess that the actual mechanics of what you are doing is a bit beyond me (especially after a bad day at work) but I can certainly appreciate the results.

I'm currently using Jernoij's slope mod which is VERY good but I have a sneaky feeling that if you release your own version it could become the standard based on the pics you've shown us here.

(P.S. thanks for the compliment re West End beaches)

[kimcar]

So much to see and no time to check.....   Shame on me . I just discover your amazing MD and i`m glad to had time to check it . WOW !  &aplsWhat an artist you are. You are in the first 5 about how terraforming. Do you gave some lesson ?   You can be sure that i will follow your update . I`m addict now . And if is wasn`t enough you are a great builder too. Great Great dam.  Genious Ok that`s it for now , i gonna keep some for the next one. Lol . Take care and have fun.

[szarkoz]

Hello Adam,

Your slope mod looks great. Right now I'm using an old Jeronij's mod with some modified parametres (got it from Darmok). I always thought it's the best one, but it seems like it won't be anymore That digging effect was always the only drawback, and now it's gone... I can't wait till you publish your mod (hopefully you'll do it )

Take care

P.S. Wesołych Świąt spędzonych w radosnej, rodzinnej atmosferze i wspaniałej sylwestrowej zabawy!

P.S.S. Wszystkiego najlepszego z okazji urodzin!

[Badsim]

Hi Adam ,

I'm following the slope mods  comparisons and the progress of your with a great interest  ... have a large mountainous region now ( and a lot of progresses to do with slopes . ) . I don't know when 'cause I've got already so many projects running , but I'm sure that I'll use your mod . These last pictures are really appealing .

On a side note , and because I'm not sure to get one minute of peace and quiet tomorrow ....   



Happy birthday my friend , and merry Christmas ! ( Must be special - I mean a bit frustrating - to have them at the same time while everybody is running for last preparations ! )

[Ennedi]

Hello my friends,

Shosaloza invites you for a Christmas party!





Pat: Sorry Pat, Friday and Saturday were gone - I am late - but don't worry, I have something for you today! Last few days the most important thing I learned was to not promise too much and make a deadline. Even a simple thing can get more complicated as we expect (but
in fact this is one of the most fascinating aspects of this game)

jmyers2043: Thank you, everything can be done but it will need some more work. I hope to receive some opinions from as experienced players  as you, it will help to make a well designed and useful tool 

Silur: Thank you! Work as usual, if it will be great or not, we will see after finishing 
I am very glad you like SC Polska team, my Polish friends really make great work, especially BATs (btw SC Poland was a previous site and it doesn't exist yet, now we have SC Polska)
Good luck for you too! 

jeronij: I'm glad you like my roads, yes I like to build them - of course there is a lot to improve in these cities, I will show how I will do it 
As for the slope mod - I don't think I'm more lucky than you, you researched different parameters than me and you did it very well 
Thank you for your comment about the network length and the slope, of course these things are strictly connected. There are some problems
with drawing shorter or longer network, the terrain attract it - but I hope I will find parameters managing this effect.
Even the simple mod needs a lot of time, and most of us don't have enough of it. In addition, we must invent many things again and again,
because our knowledge was never collected and structured. Maybe we will do it at last?

Yoman: This is one of the most pleasant and satisfied things which can happen playing SC4: When we make something (even very little), show it to others and then we hear somebody has some fun with it. Thank you too Owen!

paroch: Some people have a pleasure researching the mechanics, and it is good to talk with them about it. But good player doesn't need to be a good modder. He need to get good tools and make use of them. I don't want to be a "theoretical engineer", I would like to make something real. 
As for the standard: Placing transit networks (and other objects too) is strictly connected with terrain parameters, terrafoming and it is a very large field. For example, we have Hole Digging Lots, PEG's Leveller, we use street/road tiles to levelling terrain... I think it is possible we will need a few slope mods depending on various player's needs.

kimcar: Welcome in Shosaloza, thank you very much for your visit! Yes I can give some lesssons, and I hope somebody will give me some lessons too  (in fact many people helped me yet, this is really a great site and a great community!) Come again!

szarkoz: Thank you very much! It seems a lot of people use Jeronij's slope mod (I'm not surprised), Yes, it is very good mod. Unfortunately old modders (I don't think about Jeronij, who also modified older mods, but about pioneers) explained only a part of their work. I see many properties modified, but these modifications were never discussed. I would like to change it, it will be better if somebody will be able to make further changes using the present knowledge instead of researching everything again.
Thank you for you wishes, everything best for you too! 

Badsim: Hello Cedric, nice to hear you are interested in this mod too, I hope to hear an objective opinion from you!
In the near future will be possible to make a slope mod (and not only...) for request, according to specific needs of a particular player.
If you will say/show what you need, we will think... 
Thank you very much for your wishes, Merry Christmas an a Happy New Year for you too!

Happy birthday my friend , and merry Christmas !  ( Must be special - I mean a bit frustrating - to have them at the same time while everybody is running for last preparations ! )

It is more special than you think, 24th December is my Birthday, My name day, in addition this day (Christmas Eve) is a special day in Poland, we call it Wigilia
One party instead of three... 



I spent last few days researching existing slope mods, comparing their parameters and testing my own version. The situation is more complicated (and more interesting) than I expected.
Amongst many other things the file simcity1 .dat contains exemplars called "Street(Road, Avenue, Rail etc...) Placement Tuning Parameters". Every slope mod contains these exemplars with modified properties.
Network placement properties concern various things - costs, construction animation, available gradients, placing tunnels and bridges.
Previous discussions about slope mods (you can find some of them in Simtropolis) concerned mainly the maximum gradient of various networks. Most people found the game settings too high and unrealistic.
The property managing the maximum network gradient is called "MaxSlopeAlongNetwork", it's value range is from 0 to 90 degrees.

Here is a comparation of the MaxSlope property value in various slope mods:



Looking at other properties I found also this one:
- MaxNetworkSlopeChange - it manages the smoothness of the network (the gradient difference between neighboring network tiles) when the
network changes from flat to sloped. Less value = smoother network. Both in game and in slope mods we have this value equal to 35 - 40, i.e. we can have one tile flat and the next one can have the gradient 35 degrees. And we have very sharp angle.
That's interesting - slope mods creators decreased the MaxSlopeAlongNetwork value from 30 to 10-20 (5 in some cases), but they leave the
MaxSlopeChange at 35 degrees. Why?
I changed this value and set it to 2-4 degrees. As a result you can see smooth roads.
But attention!
It would be good to have smooth roads and to be able to cover the given height difference in as short distance as possible in the same time. We have usually a little place in SC4. 
The minimum number of tiles which we need to cover a given height difference depends on 2 properties:
- MaxSlopeAlongNetwork: higher value = shorter distance, but less realistic look as most players say.
- MaxSlopeChange: higher value = shorter distance, but sharp angles.
As you see, we must find a compromise between distance shortening and realistic looking.

Here is my proposition. Looking at the table above you can notice I increased the MaxSlope comparing to some slope mods (i.e. I shortened
the distance). Why? Because I lowered the MaxSlopeChange value (i.e. I lengthened the distance and I had to compensate it increasing the
MaxSlope).
Look below. I have two values of the MaxSlopeChange: "smooth" (2 degrees) and "economical" (4 degrees, at this value the sharp angles
become visible, but the network is still enough smooth). The last column at the right shows how much tiles we need to reach the maximum
network gradient. If the distance is bigger, we will see a sloped road with smooth angles and a straight part between them.



And at the end: the "digging" effect.
I found a property responsible for this effect. It is called "MaxDisplacementBeyondRefPlane". It's description: "Maximum amount (in meters) by which a network vertex is allowed to move beyond reference plane".
What is "reference plane"? Maybe there is another definition of it, but I know that if I have a flat surface (for example 300 m) and if I will raise a part of it by 50 m, I will have two flat surfaces. When I draw a road from the lower one to the upper one, both surfaces work as "reference planes".
When I start from the top, the road increases the gradient (according to the MaxSlopeChange value), after a few tiles it reaches the maximum gradient and then it goes downhill. When it touches to the terrain, it must decrease it's gradient and it needs a few tiles for it. So it goes below the plane. In fact we sometimes can see a few "waves" on the road (think why  )
This property value is set to 35 in all slope mods. I decreased it to 1. As the result I eliminated the digging effect.

But it would be too beautiful if it would be the end. After making these changes I started to test my new netorks behaviour. And...

1. Levelling terrain using street/road tiles: very limited, almost impossible 
2. Using Hole Digging Lots: impossible! 

In my opinion the price for these nice smooth roads was much too high. So I started to think again.
My solution:
- I changed parameters of all networks except road. In road placement tuning exemplar I leaved sharp edges and digging effect. But you can
easy build nice looking road, you simply can drag another one-tile wide network (good effects with street, OWR, RHW and rail, you don't need to demolish street and OWR) and then drag a road.
Why road? Because it plays a main role in using Hole Digging Lots, especially Ground Lifter and Hole Digger For Sunken. In fact, You don't need to use other lots from this set. You can easy make tunnels in another way.

Horribly long text without pictures. So maybe let's see pictures?

Maxis road - 50 meters height difference

16.1


Maxis road - 15 meters

16.2


And now my mod:
Attention: In the zip file attached to this post you will find three versions of the mod: "smooth" (MaxSlopeChange for all networks equal to 2); "eco" (economical, i.e. shorter distance to cover a given slope, MaxSlopeChange = 4 for all networks); "combined" - and this one has various MaxSlopeChange for various network, as it is showed in Table2.
First two versions are for simple users. The combined versions is for people who like to play a bit with their tools. To drag a particular network you can use it directly, or you can draw any other network with MaxSlopeChange and MaxSlopeAlongNetwork values less or equal to the network you want to build. In every case you will achieve different results according to your needs. I will show it below. You can use Table 2 as a guide.
Pictures below show the combined version at work. I will write parameters of various networks according to the convention: (MaxSlope, MaxSlopeChange). For example: street (20,2) i.e. maximum gradient 20 degrees, max gradient change 2 degrees (smooth version, 4 degrees would be "eco" version)

Street (20,2) - 50 meters

16.3


Street - 15 meters

16.4


Road (20,4) - you can see the digging effect

16.5


How to build a road? You can use (looking from the bottom to the top, above the road with hole):
- Street (20,2) - smooth, the biggest gradient in this mod;
- One Way Road (15,4) - lower gradient, edges still enough smooth, you can see a straight part in the middle of the slope;
- RHW (15,2) - gradient equal to OWR, but smoother edges, you see the road on slope is longer now.
- Rail (10,2) - even less gradient, smooth edges

16.6


Now let's look at the avenue (15,4). In my opinion it looks good. Of course you can use RHW to make (15,2)
And the Ground Highway variants (from the bottom to the top):
- Normal (15,4)
- RHW used (15,2)
- Rail used (10,2) - much less gradient, all rails have smooth edges
- Monorail (5,2)

16.7


Tunnels? No problem, I raised the terrain using Ground Lifter (15 meters, relatively soft slope). I didn't need to use Hole Digging Lots.
From the bottom to the top: road, avenue, OWR, highway, rail

16.8


Of course no problem with the Mono rail tunnel too

16.9


And how looks rail (10,2)?

16.10


And the last interesting thing: diagonal network.
Now we can forget about these horrible uneven diagonal roads, we can make them smooth 

16.11


16.12



Attention: this is only a start point. There are more problems with building roads and more parameters to investigate. So if you are interested in this mod, please download it, play with it a bit and tell me what do you think.
Before releasing the next version I will look at costs of building transit networks. Now they are identical as in other mods except Jeronij's one - he made some nice innovations and I will do the same 

But I want to build something new in Shosaloza. I also don't want to increase my MD post account in an artificial way. So now I return to building cities, and after the New Year I will start a new topic in the "Mod Projects" section for my slope experiments.
Please send your opinions here till this time.
And remember, use road (not street) tiles to levelling the terrain!

You can find your little Christmas gift below 

Cheers
Adam

[Yoman]

Im typing from my phone so I must be brief, but I jet wanted to wish you a Merry Christmas, a happy birthday, and a wonerful name day.

Thank you for your great Christmas gift, once I find time to get to my computer you might get a late one from Santa also

EDIT - Not on the phone now. Excellent work here on everything, I might make the slope for rail a bit less though.

But you are a savior for fixing those diagonals, really, I was shooting myself dragging them over cliffs.

And your presents are being delivered by Santa now, check your email

[Cjah]

Excellent tutorial/demonstration of this fine slope mod!

Good slope always was hard for me to achieve,but throughout this journal,every town,every small expanse of land or even the amazing dam is shown with perfect balance of slope...

I am quite amazed and wonder whats to come next!


Merry X mass and happy Birthday!

[szarkoz]

Hello again, Adam.

I decided to give your mod a try. I chose smooth version.

Effects are really great. It's extremely smooth and realistic. However, it's not easy in use. I'd even recommend it only for experienced players, as the game often tells that it's impossible to build a network. I found a nice method for that, though. Just make the road first - you'll get the digging effect, but then destroy the road, and make an identical street there with one exception - make it one tile longer. That way the game never tells you it's impossible to build and the digging effect is gone.

Using your mod, Adam, is hard and undoubtebly time consuming. However, if you really care for the look of your cities, and you don't mind irritating "red tiles" when building a network, then it's great.

Thanks for that beta. I'm looking forward to more!

Take care

[bat]

Great new update of that slope mod!!
Also a Merry Christmas and Happy Birthday from me!

[Silur]

Hi, Adam ...
Merry Christmas to You !!!
I must work with Your Mod promptly !!!
EDIT: ten minutes after:

Great work - real fantastic !!!
Thank You !!!
   

[Shadow Assassin]

The digging effect on the slope tuning parameters is what allows areas of land to be leveled by the plopping-street-tiles terraforming method. I've experimented with the MaxHeight and MinHeight property with pleasing effects: it's very easy to build land bridges with them.

And have a happy birthday and Merry Christmas.

[Jmouse]

Thanks, Ennedi. It will be several days before I can try it out this Christmas gift -- got a houseful of company until Saturday afternoon -- but I know it will be superb!

Until next time...
Joan

[suplado!]

wow -- those slope looks really good...the diagonal is awesome!!

[nedalezz]

Incredible, simply incredible! I feel like im in university again, with SimCity as my major and you are the professor! The diagonal lanes are a piece of art, Ennedi. You are revolutionizing the way we play SC.

[Pat]

Adam better late then never, Happy belated birthday and also a Merry Christmas!!! Im gonna have to try this out for sure and thank you for your hard work!!!

[JoeST]

I dont know if you want to know, but i messed around with the "digging" effect property: MaxDisplacementBeyondRefPlane

You can reduce it to 20 and both the hole digging lots (well the ones that can use road) and flattening terrain work, but reducing it to 5 doesn't work. I will continue testing now.

Oh and BTW this is an amazing MD

Joe

EDIT: 15 is as low as you can go and get both hole digging and flattening to work, well that was the case... untill i retested ground lifting... doesnt wornk

[Ennedi]

I dont know if you want to know, but i messed around with the "digging" effect property: MaxDisplacementBeyondRefPlane

You can reduce it to 20 and both the hole digging lots (well the ones that can use road) and flattening terrain work, but reducing it to 5 doesn't work. I will continue testing now.

Oh and BTW this is an amazing MD

Joe

EDIT: 13 doesnt work but 15 does

Joe,

Hole Digger for Road (and also Hole Digger for Sunken and Ground Lifter, two most important tools in this set) changes the terrain height by 15 or 16 meters.
I think if you will make the MaxDisplacementBeyondRefPlane not less than 8 (a half of 16), these tools will work - check it! (I'm not sure yet, I only think  )
And why to make this parameter value as high as possible? It is useful with levelling the terrain using street/road tiles. If you have this value equal to 20, you will be able to level the tile which have 40 meters height difference in it's different corners.
From this reason I leaved higher value of this property in one network in my "combined" slope mod version - to enable levelling the terrain
Play with these parameters more, it's interesting!  Maybe you would like to look at smoothing properties and something called "Use Freehand Mode"?

Edit: Sorry Joe, if you want to use Hole Digging Lots, you should have th "MaxDisplacement..." property higher than 16 (or even more for "Deeper Hole Digger..." lots.
But what I said about levelling is true with one addition: you can have the slope on one tile more than twice "MaxDisplacement..." value and you can level this tile. But the height of this tile after levelling will be somewhere between lower and upper plane. If you will place a flat tile on the lower plane, and then you will want to level the neighboring tile, you will not be able to do it.

[JoeST]

well with this mod there is no point with all but the ground lifting and sunken/road lowering lots as all the others have the property changed. Unfortunate really. After a retest, I realised i had forgotten to change the property back to 15 from 14 and now they work. which means that the MaxDisplacementBeyondRefPlane needs to be the same as the terrain height change (whatever property that is) of the Hole Diggers, Is there a way of minimising the "wave" effect?

Joe

[Ennedi]

At this moment I think the only easy way is the one I proposed: I leaved the "MaxDisplacement..." at 35 for roads, so I can use Ground Lifter and Hole Digger for Sunken (they need just a road). I can also level the terrain using road (not street!) tiles. When I want to make a road without the digging effect, I use another network to prepare the terrain and then drag a road.

But I didn't check all possible effects yet. These properties act together. For example, if the MaxSlopeChange is higher than the MaxSlope, it enables sharp edges when a road goes from flat terrain to slope. However, we often see our road without these edges. Why? Because we have also smoothening parameters and we see them at work.

Smaller digging effect makes exactly the same trouble as the bigger one