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CS$$$ wants R$ but R$ can't work on CS$$$?

Started by superjugy, September 06, 2018, 09:20:16 PM

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superjugy

Hi everyone. I'm trying to understand the whole Census Drive and Workforce Drive and see if I can come up with a good distribution of RCI in my city. I am using the CAM mod BTW.From their manual:

Census Drive:






Worker TypeCO$$$CO$$CS$$$CS$$CS$I-HTI-MI-DI-R
R$$$25%20%18%5%2%25%8%2%2%
R$$55%50%30%27%4%60%50%18%23%
R$20%30%52%68%94%15%42%80%75%

As you can see CS$$$ creates 18%, 30% and 52% R$$$, R$$, R$ jobs respectively. That sums up to 100% which means that if that business is to succeed, it has to have workers from all types of wealth (or that is my assumption).

Then we have the Workforce Drive:















WealthEducationCO$$$CO$$CS$$$CS$$CS$I-HTI-MI-DI-R
R$$$150-20065%0%30%0%0%30%0%0%0%
100-15055%20%25%5%0%20%0%0%15%
50-10040%50%20%10%0%0%5%0%45%
0-5020%55%5%20%5%0%10%10%65%
R$$150-20035%10%5%25%0%50%0%0%60%
100-15025%20%0%30%0%25%25%0%75%
50-10010%35%0%25%5%0%40%10%90%
0-500%25%0%20%10%0%45%25%115%
R$150-20015%65%0%15%15%15%0%0%95%
100-1500%20%0%10%20%0%45%30%105%
50-1000%0%0%5%25%0%35%60%131%
0-500%0%0%0%30%0%0%95%166%

From this we can see that R$ is not wanting to work for CS$$$ at all. regardless of its education. So my question is, how can CS$$$ create R$ jobs and then R$ don't take them? how is that supposed to work?

Sorry if I am a noob at RCI, or if this question has been asked before. just trying to get a good feeling about this.

Thanks,

twalsh102

Drives (and what they actually mean) can be a complicated beast.  But one can't just go by those numbers alone.

The WorkForce Drive chart actually does more than supposedly just determine what types of jobs a Sim is "willing" to take.  First if you go across the chart for a given wealth and EQ level, you see that the percentages add up to way more than %100.  When you add in the I-R column, the percentages can almost reach %300 in some instances.  So what does all this actually mean?  How can there be job preferences for %300 of your R$ high-EQ Sim population?

So first of all, IR is handled separately as far as Drives are concerned.  That why you see numbers higher than %100 under IR.

In reality, the WorkForce Drive table is what drives demand for all the other Developer types.  In other words (we'll use R$ EQ-4 here as an example), if you have a growth spurt of 100 R$ (EQ-4) Sims, the following jobs are created (based on the table): 15 CO$$$, 65 CO$$, 15 CS$$, 15 CS$, 15 IHT, and 95 IR (notice no IM or ID either).  If the fiction of "willing to take" were in fact true, all CO$$$ and CS$$$ buildings would abandon eventually for lack of R$ workers.   

Keeping under-educated Sims available is in fact a problem later in a city's life because Sims with higher EQs tend to want to upgrade to the next higher wealth level (who wants to keep a low-paying job forever, if they have a chance of moving to a higher-paying one?)

Since a building provides jobs without taking into account EQ level (according to the Census Drive), and demand isn't divided according to EQ level (only wealth level), how does the game determine the distribution of the job force for any particular building according to EQ level?  Or does it?  An important factor we think we understand (which is likely buried in the game code, although some of the RCI exemplars hint at this) is that in actuality the game itself only understands Jobs$, Jobs$$, and Jobs$$$, and plugs in job-hunting Sims at wherever they are needed, at the closest available job according to where they live.  I sometimes wonder if the WorkForce Drive table really isn't just a justification for the game's education system.

While the exemplars tell us many things about the game, unfortunately they very often don't tell us the whole story on any given subject.

No need to apologize.  Everybody needs to start somewhere.  The truth is that even after 15 years, there is still a lot about this game that isn't completely understood.

superjugy

Ok, that is actually some good info. So let me see if I get the cycle:


  • There is an initial R demand of different wealth levels.
  • I zone R and buildings start to grow to satisfy this demands.
  • This should lower the demand of R since the buildings satisfy it, BUT the new R now creates a demand of different jobs based on the wealth and education of the buildings.
  • I zone C and I to satisfy this demand, BUT, I should NOT zone all the demand because the "sims" demand more than 100% of actual jobs needed. They just demand their preference. I can zone only C or only I, and also I get to choose where I zone to trick or force which type of C and/or I actually grows.
  • New buildings grow and generate jobs of different wealth levels. These jobs then cancel out the demand of jobs from R from the different wealth levels.
  • In a perfect world the amount and type of jobs created and demanded is exactly the same, but in reality, the jobs created might be more or less than the needed by the sims or might not be of the same wealth type, which makes balancing something very difficult, as now there is probably a demand of R to cover the jobs created that were not picked by the workforce, plus probably still needing to create more C or I to cover the jobs that are still needed by some sims already in the city

I don't think there will ever by a way to balance this. So what is better? having some unemployed sims? or having some understaffed jobs?

twalsh102

You almost got it.  Actually a new city is seeded with an initial demand for the different developer types other than residential.

This causes you to zone residential to cause new Sims to move in and meet this initial demand.  These new Sims also cause new jobs to be created according to the WorkForce Drive charts, which raises the demand for the different developer types, which you fulfill by zoning more residential, ... wash, rinse, repeat!

Your point 3 is very critical.  You don't want to over-zone.  This can cause demand to actually go negative.  You don't want this to happen!  The trick is to move cautiously when zoning.  I think human nature causes many people to push too fast so they can get to that million Sim megalopolis with all the shiny skyscrapers.  Sometimes it works, there are "cheats" available that make this easier by causing some aspects of game mechanics to be bypassed.  You will usually see these types of mods listed as extreme mods of one type or another.  In reality there are no real cheats because you aren't playing against anybody/anything, not even against the machine.

Your Point 4 is partially correct.  Don't forget that initially, all of your Sims will be R$, and mostly uneducated (new R$ Sims start with an EQ of 10).  If you look at the WorkForce Drive charts, the majority of your demand will be for ID jobs, with some demand for CS$.  As Sims grow in education level, demand for other types of jobs will arise.  You can totally determine what grows where by controlling your zoning.  But you only have so much control.

As you've already seen in the Census Drive charts, even low-wealth buildings provide jobs for all three wealth.  This creates demand for Sims of those higher wealth levels, who also enter the city with practically no education but at higher EQ levels than R$ Sims (R$$ start with an EQ of 15 and R$$$ start with an EQ of 20), which further affects demand of the other developer types.

In reality, many of your buildings may have unfulfilled jobs.  However, an unemployed Sim is still without a job after six months, he will abandon his place of residence and move out of the city.  You don't want abandoned structure in your city, as they don't pay taxes, and are 50% more flammable than occupied structures

Another factor to keep in mind when growing your city is that only approximately 50% of your Sim population is job eligible.  So the percentages in the tables apply to job-eligible Sims.  This was the game developers' way of taking into account children, non-working wives, grandparents, Sim Worlds version of your no-account, worthless, can't hold a job third cousin on your mother's side, etc.

superjugy

Yeah, I knew about the first sims you get being very stupid  ;D . I was thinking more at the later stage. I did notice the initial demand for C and I, not just R. but how does that work? does that demand has ghost jobs? or is it just some kind of way to force the first buildings to grow?

I also knew that the sim count was not the same as the workforce count. I didn't know about the abandoned buildings being more flammable.

Thanks for all the info man. this will help me tons. I am using the money cheat to try to make my city faster (I don't have much to play really so I want to speed it up as much as I can) and end with very weird things happening.  :P

twalsh102

The initial demand is just a way to get the city going.  Otherwise you get the classic "what comes first, the chicken or the egg?" conundrum!  New residents won't move in if there are no jobs, and no businesses will develop if there are no Sims to take available jobs.  So the initial demand is seeded to allow you to start zoning any way you want.

FWIW, there are many players that still like the challenges associated with all the city management aspects of the game, while others like to bypass much of the frustration involved, and just concentrate on development.  The fact that many people have become frustrated with the money aspect explains the many money trees, money parks, money factories, etc. that have been created over the years.  I long ago tired of playing the money game, so I use the moolah "cheat" (rather than risky money, weakness pays or any of more extreme money "cheats") and just start a new city with a few million simoleans.  Then I can concentrate on things like building up infrastructure at the beginning to better define how I want the city to develop.  Which money "cheat" are you using?

Part of the problem of getting enough R$ Sims to fill available jobs later in the game is caused by game mechanics.  When a Sim advances to the next higher wealth level, he doesn't move to a higher-wealth neighborhood.  Rather, his residence upgrades to the next higher wealth level.  So what started as R$ neighborhoods, eventually morph into R$$$ neighborhoods.  Unless you plan ahead, you are, in time, left with no place to zone new residential areas where R$ residential lots will grow rather than higher-wealth lots.  Even if you find someplace, those areas will also eventually upgrade.  There are some strategies to be used to address this involving education, and/or marking residential structures as historic so they don't upgrade.  Playing regionally can also help tremendously.  You can create an adjacent city that is, in effect, a residential slum, with no education facilities, so that all the residents quickly turn into drooling simpletons.  EQ decays by 0.2 points per month, so placing even just a couple of libraries (which is the education facility with the lowest monthly EQ boost of 0.3) will eventually raise a Sims EQ to max, and likewise raise their wealth level to max.

If you don't already have a copy of the Prima Official Strategy Guide for SC4 Deluxe, I highly recommend it.  You can get it for free here:  https://archive.org/details/SimCity_4_Rush_Hour_Prima_Official_eGuide.  While many of the numbers and stats in the guide are inaccurate, the explanation of many of the mechanics of the game is invaluable.  Because the guide was prepared with the help of some of the game's developers, you can pick up a lot of information that one might not otherwise be able to figure out correctly by just playing the game.  It's my go-to bible when trying to help others understand game mechanics.

BTW, please bear with me if I explain things that you might already know.  There is just no way to determine anyone's level of experience with, or knowledge of, the game based off questions being asked, number of posts, or when one joined the forum.  One could have joined the forum 10 years ago, and just never gotten into the game.  Or one could have been playing the game for the past 10 years, and just never felt a need to join the forum until last week.

superjugy

I use the "Moolah" and the "you don't deserve it" cheats. I had heard of the Prima guide, Thanks for the link, I'll be sure to check it.

Oh and thanks for telling me all these things even if I already knew them. Didn't mean that as a reclaim or anything. I joined the game and forum a week ago more or less, but I like to read a lot so I have found lots of things from my reading. You cleared a lot of things for me, thanks again. I'll see if I can get my city to the 1 million sims mark. Always get to the 800/900 maark and the sims abandon.